CANESVILLE Twitter Space

[mainecane]

The willingness & offers to "step up" have been there for quite some time - going back to ****lala as Prez .... she didn't care as the funding was all about UHealth & med school. Herbstreit brought it to a head with his comments which Frenk & BOT couldn't sidestep as it became a national public PR nightmare. Timing is everything.

 

[colperm]

Exactly. That’s how you get investigated. Common sense really isn’t common.

This has been bothering me for some time now and I was tempted to start a thread about it, despite knowing how poorly it would have been received. I can't get this image out of my head when it comes to how our fanbase has been acting now that we have actual money backing the program.

The word "bag" is being dropped around here almost as often as "elite" nowadays. I realize it's hard to act like we've "been there" before, because we haven't... but we're really epitomizing the cringiest parts of new money and I just hope this period subsides

 

[Zbrod95]

This has been bothering me for some time now and I was tempted to start a thread about it, despite knowing how poorly it would have been received. I can't get this image out of my head when it comes to how our fanbase has been acting now that we have actual money backing the program.

View attachment 170958

The word "bag" is being dropped around here almost as often as "elite" nowadays. I realize it's hard to act like we've "been there" before, because we haven't... but we're really epitomizing the cringiest parts of new money and I just hope this period subsides

It’s not even about being scared. You don’t put your business out in the open. Anybody who thinks it’s about being scared doesn’t understand the concept of “Not bringing the foreign to the dope house” to put it in lay terms.

 

[kryptonite]

I don’t think, given the scrutiny that is here or will be here via governments eyeballs, that the NCAA will go after Miami while Texas pays OL $50k each - not without getting decimated by legislators, courts…

In the past, they may have gotten away with their arbitrary and capricious enforcement of rules but this is so out of their control at this point. I’d almost invite them to try. It would end what authority they have left to terrorize us.

my point is that NIL hasn't undone what already exists. It hasn't undone the NCAA and it hasn't undone the bags. I don't see any reason bags will stop changing hands. Add to that the fact that the NCAA already has questions about how both Texas and Miami are handling NIL money, and I just don't see them going away or being toothless.

 

[kryptonite]

This has been bothering me for some time now and I was tempted to start a thread about it, despite knowing how poorly it would have been received. I can't get this image out of my head when it comes to how our fanbase has been acting now that we have actual money backing the program.

View attachment 170958

The word "bag" is being dropped around here almost as often as "elite" nowadays. I realize it's hard to act like we've "been there" before, because we haven't... but we're really epitomizing the cringiest parts of new money and I just hope this period subsides

I've got some bad news for you concerning the city of Miami, money, and classiness.

 

[RVACane]

my point is that NIL hasn't undone what already exists. It hasn't undone the NCAA and it hasn't undone the bags. I don't see any reason bags will stop changing hands. Add to that the fact that the NCAA already has questions about how both Texas and Miami are handling NIL money, and I just don't see them going away or being toothless.

Bags won’t stop - they’ll increase - with lawful means of delivery. Their teeth are limited. They can’t do a thing against laws of the land. They supersede the NCAA. The NCAA cannot take away a lawful right. They’ll get destroyed in court. They’re afraid of that fight - believe me - as they know it will undermine their feared authority even more. They need to bust people on violations of dead periods, which is within their control.

 

[TheOriginalCane]

The major difference between then and now, and why I keep asserting that the NCAA is powerless (I should write ‘effectively powerless) is because NIL was a court decision, which gives lower courts the jurisdiction to hear NIL lawsuits.
So let’s assume the NCAA declares player X ineligible due to a purported NIL issue. What I expect a player or school to do going forward is rather than sit the player, file a Temporary Injunction such that the player remains eligible and then proceed with the lawsuit, which will take 1-2 years to wind thru the court system, by which time the player has likely moved on. I also expect under this hypothetical that the courts will lean heavily on the side of the player because the Supreme Court opinion so heavily favored the players over the NCAA that lower courts will want to follow that lead.

you made great points and you are appropriately forcing me to re-state my argument. The NCAA is ‘effectively powerless’ because they are not the final judge of NIL violations. The courts are and the courts will almost assuredly side with players.

Yes, and I think you and I agree at about the 95% level on this one. The MAJOR fvck-up on the NCAA level, and the genie they may not be able to stuff back in the bottle, is the issue of "university-arranged" NILs and/or "entire-team-gets-one" NILs. The NCAA could have issued a few bright-line rules to GUARANTEE that universities could not create a disguised-payment arrangement, but Emmert decided to take his annual 50-week vacation at that time.

For the lawyers on the board, we were trained to do issue-spotting. And there is currently a "pay-for-play" 18-wheeler plowing down the road right now. It's going to get ugly the first time a judge decides that a football player's career-ending injury entitles him to a lifetime of disability payments. At least the "professional" sports leagues have collectively-bargained for disability insurance.

 

[Gi0logy]

Bags won’t stop - they’ll increase - with lawful means of delivery. Their teeth are limited. They can’t do a thing against laws of the land. They supersede the NCAA. The NCAA cannot take away a lawful right. They’ll get destroyed in court. They’re afraid of that fight - believe me - as they know it will undermine their feared authority even more. They need to bust people on violations of dead periods, which is within their control.

I know little to nothing about the court of law (I'm basically Charlie from It's Always Sunny) but the paranoid cynic in me is always worried that the NCAA will use us as a scapegoat to send a message to other programs.

Comments like yours (and other lawyers here) make me feel a little better and give me hope that the Ruiz (and others) won't be held back.

 

[TheOriginalCane]

I don’t think, given the scrutiny that is here or will be here via governments eyeballs, that the NCAA will go after Miami while Texas pays OL $50k each - not without getting decimated by legislators, courts…

In the past, they may have gotten away with their arbitrary and capricious enforcement of rules but this is so out of their control at this point. I’d almost invite them to try. It would end what authority they have left to terrorize us.

I completely agree with you. The UM-Texas "NILs for everyone" challenge by the NCAA is belated. It is the epitome of stupidity to NOT set up a bright-line rule, and then nearly immediately announce that you are INVESTIGATING such an arrangement.

The reality is that groups like the IOC have been setting/enforcing rules related to amateurism for decades, even as Olympic athletes make commercials for Wheaties and Gaytorade. Anyone with a brain at the NCAA should have realized that there are plenty of well-debated and already-existing guidelines on what "amateur" (non-employee) athletes can and cannot do.

Or maybe I just answered my own hypothetical question on NCAA intelligence...

 

[TheOriginalCane]

But the other schools are very public about it, see Texas A and M. See Jackson State. See University of Texas.
NIL was meant to be public. This way the IRS will know how is being paid and how much, and will receive their appropriate cut, as opposed to under the table deals.

I completely agree with this, and it has actually surprised me a bit. A couple of years ago, there was a proposed framework whereby the NCAA had to pre-approve every NIL deal, and I think that might have actually resulted in LESS transparency than we currently have.

 

[TheOriginalCane]

The next interesting part of the process will be how the IRS wades into this.

If a wealthy university booster wants to make a charitable contribution to pay for a stadium, it's a valid charitable deduction. If a wealthy university booster wants his/her business to pay a student-athlete to be a spokesperson for a business, it's a valid advertising/marketing deduction.

If a wealthy university booster wants to pay an athlete to play an amateur sport...and tries to take a deduction for that...and then the IRS brings down the hammer?

Yeah, I'm not interested in representing any rich redneck boosters on IRS audit who didn't bother to properly document the business nature and purpose of these "NIL" expenditures...

 

[colperm]

I've got some bad news for you concerning the city of Miami, money, and classiness.

The main reason why I opted not to make a thread on the topic lol

 

[scrantoncane]

The next interesting part of the process will be how the IRS wades into this.

If a wealthy university booster wants to make a charitable contribution to pay for a stadium, it's a valid charitable deduction. If a wealthy university booster wants his/her business to pay a student-athlete to be a spokesperson for a business, it's a valid advertising/marketing deduction.

If a wealthy university booster wants to pay an athlete to play an amateur sport...and tries to take a deduction for that...and then the IRS brings down the hammer?

Yeah, I'm not interested in representing any rich redneck boosters on IRS audit who didn't bother to properly document the business nature and purpose of these "NIL" expenditures...

I was just about to post about this.

I read in an article a few days ago (can’t remember where, but it was talking about the A&M NIL deals), that the donors were creating a separate LLC *OR CHARITY* for each player.

Now, a 501(c)(3) can have paid employees. And maybe even part of the NIL deal is that player X has to visit the children’s hospital or whatever. But bells immediately started ringing in my head.

Why would it be a charity and not an LLC? Clearly the answer is so they can deduct taxes.

I can see why they are trying (assuming they are, in fact, going the charity route). But no chance the IRS lets wealthy donors all over the country get windfalls for simply buying a recruit to their school of choice. There would also be a lot of charities complaining, cause Atty. Ruiz stopped making his yearly donation that he previously used to lower his tax liability.

It seems like a losing battle (with the IRS in tax court), which might have negative implications for the sport of CFB going forward.

 

[Tad Footeball]

The next interesting part of the process will be how the IRS wades into this.

If a wealthy university booster wants to make a charitable contribution to pay for a stadium, it's a valid charitable deduction. If a wealthy university booster wants his/her business to pay a student-athlete to be a spokesperson for a business, it's a valid advertising/marketing deduction.

If a wealthy university booster wants to pay an athlete to play an amateur sport...and tries to take a deduction for that...and then the IRS brings down the hammer?

Yeah, I'm not interested in representing any rich redneck boosters on IRS audit who didn't bother to properly document the business nature and purpose of these "NIL" expenditures...

Not that there probably aren't legitimate morons/scammers that might try to classify an NIL deal (a marketing deal) as a classic "donation" type of deduction but you'd legitimately have to be an idiot to do so or to try to test those boundaries.

It shouldn't be that difficult a training session and there's probably a structure in place but I'm personally more concerned about the kids not understanding the correct tax ramifications of NIL deals. I also think that income can compromise eligibility for certain preexisting grants and student loans so hopefully that's all being monitored.

 

[TheOriginalCane]

I was just about to post about this.

I read in an article a few days ago (can’t remember where, but it was talking about the A&M NIL deals), that the donors were creating a separate LLC *OR CHARITY* for each player.

Now, a 501(c)(3) can have paid employees. And maybe even part of the NIL deal is that player X has to visit the children’s hospital or whatever. But bells immediately started ringing in my head.

Why would it be a charity and not an LLC? Clearly the answer is so they can deduct taxes.

I can see why they are trying (assuming they are, in fact, going the charity route). But no chance the IRS lets wealthy donors all over the country get windfalls for simply buying a recruit to their school of choice. There would also be a lot of charities complaining, cause Atty. Ruiz stopped making his yearly donation that he previously used to lower his tax liability.

It seems like a losing battle (with the IRS in tax court), which might have negative implications for the sport of CFB going forward.

Yes, and while I will GLADLY defer to the guys who are more expert in charitable organizations (@wspcane ), I would point out that (historically) if all of the "support" for a charitable organization is too concentrated (i.e., if one rich dude funds the whole charity), it is treated as a private foundation. Again, I'm not saying that the whole thing is unmanageable, and you certainly hope that these wealthy guys have good tax and legal representation, but still...

Regardless of anything, I'm not sure I would entrust the fate of millions of dollars of deductions to the IRS and/or the US Congress.

But that's just my 2 cents on the issue...

 

[TheOriginalCane]

Not that there probably aren't legitimate morons/scammers that might try to classify an NIL deal (a marketing deal) as a classic "donation" type of deduction but you'd legitimately have to be an idiot to do so or to try to test those boundaries.

It shouldn't be that difficult a training session and there's probably a structure in place but I'm personally more concerned about the kids not understanding the correct tax ramifications of NIL deals. I also think that income can compromise eligibility for certain preexisting grants and student loans so hopefully that's all being monitored.

Yeah, I hadn't even addressed that previously. Might not impact "head-count" sports (football, basketball) where student-athletes get full scholarships plus room/board/books/incidentals, but it could certainly hurt "equivalency" sports here kids may get financial aid beyond the partial scholarship.

 

[scrantoncane]

Yes, and while I will GLADLY defer to the guys who are more expert in charitable organizations (@wspcane ), I would point out that (historically) if all of the "support" for a charitable organization is too concentrated (i.e., if one rich dude funds the whole charity), it is treated as a private foundation. Again, I'm not saying that the whole thing is unmanageable, and you certainly hope that these wealthy guys have good tax and legal representation, but still...

Regardless of anything, I'm not sure I would entrust the fate of millions of dollars of deductions to the IRS and/or the US Congress.

But that's just my 2 cents on the issue...

Another thought I just had (and I am no expert on charitable law either, but I have formed a few of them so I’ve read the statutes): if I’m not mistaken, the salary of a 501c3 employee has to be reasonable for the job/role/work performed.

I don’t think you can give a kid $100k/yr for signing a few autographs.

 

[TheOriginalCane]

Another thought I just had (and I am no expert on charitable law either, but I have formed a few of them so I’ve read the statutes): if I’m not mistaken, the salary of a 501c3 employee has to be reasonable for the job/role/work performed.

I don’t think you can give a kid $100k/yr for signing a few autographs.

Yeah, there are a bunch of things that can trip you up on non-profits. I did more work on non-profits earlier in my career, but @wspcane and I have discussed that the Regs continue to evolve.

 

[Tad Footeball]

Yeah, I hadn't even addressed that previously. Might not impact "head-count" sports (football, basketball) where student-athletes get full scholarships plus room/board/books/incidentals, but it could certainly hurt "equivalency" sports here kids may get financial aid beyond the partial scholarship.

Exactly and you know (and I wouldn't blame them) the federal government isn't going to ignore Pell Grant type of abuse. They'll at least try to make a few examples to dissuade future issues.

 

[colperm]

It’s not even about being scared. You don’t put your business out in the open. Anybody who thinks it’s about being scared doesn’t understand the concept of “Not bringing the foreign to the dope house” to put it in lay terms.

I'm with you 100%. I don't think there's any cause to be scared, it's just about being smart and carrying ourselves appropriately