Personnel for a two-gap 3-4 next year

[PSU Cane]

The problem is talent and reps. It's hard to get enough reps for the DL reading every type of block and then every decision a RB makes on top of that on a limited schedule (unlike the NFL). To compound that, our NT is a senior who has practiced (time wise) the reps of a sophomore in this system. Dude was missing time every year that was critical to him getting the reps needed to play effectively in this system. That's why Stanford under Fangio was succeeding with it: they had guys who had five years worth of reps starting, who were built for that system. We have a 4-3 DE playing 3-4 DE, a 2-star last minute addition in OP, and a senior who hasn't practiced or played a full season in like 3 years.

These aren't excuses for us to keep the system. The system is based on the idea that we need to run it b/c simpler methods can be exposed by elite QBs. But in college it is rare to EVER play a QB that requires such complexity thrown at him. It's a waste of time to run this kind of defense in college. But don't make idiotic statements or inferences that our coaches don't know what pattern matching is, or how to properly coach 2 gap DL. It honestly comes off as immature, jealous, and foolish.

Agree with the bolded.

But, are you saying Fangio ran a predominant 2-gap system?

I'm not saying the coaches are coaching it that way but they are allowing the players to play it that way. That part is not lack of talent. Whatever is going on just isn't working and it's obvious on tape when our entire Dline stands up at the snap and wait to take on the contact as opposed to initiating it....not to mention that when contact is made these kids are not good are using their hands or disengaging. You would think by now that you would have seen at least marginal improvement. If anything, i have seen Porter and Pierre regress a bit.

 

[PSU Cane]

So after Wilfork Miami hasn't put any DT's worth of crap in the NFL running the "Fun" and "Attacking" 4-3 defense you all are saying would solve all our problems on D.

Yet despite not having a dominant DT after Wilfork, Miami was still able to field quality defenses under a 4-3 scheme.

Exactly my point. If you don't have the guys to run that system, don't run it exclusively. I've always been a advocate of tweaking your system (offense or defense) to showcase the strengths of the players you have. You have to play with the hand you are dealt. If those So Florida guys coming through the ranks are a little faster but not as stout at the point and better at attacking in a 1-gap system and those are your recruiting grounds, you might want to consider running that a bit more. If you are deficient of talent, it seems as though you can hide it better in a 1-gap system where penetration and disruption by beating zone blocks or pulls or slanting can give you occasional wins against the offense instead of sitting back and consistently losing because you don't have the talent.

 

[FullyERicht]

WCD:

I have no disagreement that 2-gapping in college ball is a recipe for mediocrity, simply based on rep time alone.

I also agree strongly that our D philosophy is "scared". If Buddy Ryan is the example of a guy who didn't give a **** and went after you Cover-0 all game, with a huge set of balls, then this system is the complete opposite. JJ/Lubick/Butch/Shannon defenses are a nice half way in between.

But I find it ridiculous when you try to make it seem like the reason our defense is struggling is b/c our coaches don't know basic things. It's disingenuous, misleading, and comes across as bitter.

 

[Coach Macho]

WCD:

I have no disagreement that 2-gapping in college ball is a recipe for mediocrity, simply based on rep time alone.

I also agree strongly that our D philosophy is "scared". If Buddy Ryan is the example of a guy who didn't give a **** and went after you Cover-0 all game, with a huge set of balls, then this system is the complete opposite. JJ/Lubick/Butch/Shannon defenses are a nice half way in between.

But I find it ridiculous when you try to make it seem like the reason our defense is struggling is b/c our coaches don't know basic things. It's disingenuous, misleading, and comes across as bitter.

What basic things did I say that our coaches don't know?

I've said that we're out-flanked at the snap sometimes. Is that what we're referring to?

 

[FullyERicht]

WCD:

I have no disagreement that 2-gapping in college ball is a recipe for mediocrity, simply based on rep time alone.

I also agree strongly that our D philosophy is "scared". If Buddy Ryan is the example of a guy who didn't give a **** and went after you Cover-0 all game, with a huge set of balls, then this system is the complete opposite. JJ/Lubick/Butch/Shannon defenses are a nice half way in between.

But I find it ridiculous when you try to make it seem like the reason our defense is struggling is b/c our coaches don't know basic things. It's disingenuous, misleading, and comes across as bitter.

What basic things did I say that our coaches don't know?

I've said that we're out-flanked at the snap sometimes. Is that what we're referring to?

Youve made multiple inferences (including using the reactor sled video) that our DL are being taught incorrectly in their fundamentals. You have infered that the staff doesn't teach/employ pattern matching concepts.

It's just a bit curious to me that a guy can be so critical of certain coaches, but when the LBs are ******** up their reads and match rules left and right, I never see a complaint about Barrow.

And when in your past life as Cityboycane you were adament our guys were "just as strong as everyone else", yet refused to acknowledge you were dead wrong when the truth of just how bad we were in the weight room was made public.

Too often you are clearly too fast to absolve any 305 born and bred coach of any blame, while unfairly trying to discredit non-305 coaches. It reeks of a xenophobic arrogance that says "only people from Miami really know football".

 

[4000TMNT]

The majority miami current commits on defense play in a 4-3, only 2 or 3 out of miami commits play in a 3-4 defense in high school.

So is Golden gonna be wise enough to be back in a 4-3 defense next year?

 

[Coach Macho]

WCD:

I have no disagreement that 2-gapping in college ball is a recipe for mediocrity, simply based on rep time alone.

I also agree strongly that our D philosophy is "scared". If Buddy Ryan is the example of a guy who didn't give a **** and went after you Cover-0 all game, with a huge set of balls, then this system is the complete opposite. JJ/Lubick/Butch/Shannon defenses are a nice half way in between.

But I find it ridiculous when you try to make it seem like the reason our defense is struggling is b/c our coaches don't know basic things. It's disingenuous, misleading, and comes across as bitter.

What basic things did I say that our coaches don't know?

I've said that we're out-flanked at the snap sometimes. Is that what we're referring to?

Youve made multiple inferences (including using the reactor sled video) that our DL are being taught incorrectly in their fundamentals. You have infered that the staff doesn't teach/employ pattern matching concepts.

It's just a bit curious to me that a guy can be so critical of certain coaches, but when the LBs are ******** up their reads and match rules left and right, I never see a complaint about Barrow.

And when in your past life as Cityboycane you were adament our guys were "just as strong as everyone else", yet refused to acknowledge you were dead wrong when the truth of just how bad we were in the weight room was made public.

Too often you are clearly too fast to absolve any 305 born and bred coach of any blame, while unfairly trying to discredit non-305 coaches. It reeks of a xenophobic arrogance that says "only people from Miami really know football".

Pffffft. What?!

Dude, i can't even tell you how many times I've said that the coaching down here sucks. You've never seen me express bias towards coaches from certain areas, so stop. You're off you're rocker right now. I've questioned Barrow and Coley a million times and they're both from Miami.

Now show me where i said that the DL are being taught wrong. I said that their stances are square, they stand up at the snap and wait for contact. That's what they do.

And again, show me where i said that the coaches don't know pattern reading. I never said that. I said that we're spot dropping on Saturdays. I never said that the coaches "don't know" pattern matching. I'm sure they know it. Are they teaching it? If so, our kids don't get it. (in year 3)

Stop putting words in my mouth. My girl does that ****. Smh

You got hold of that **** Al Groh PDF file and that thing is like your Bible now. You read that **** and think you know what we're doing on Saturdays. I choose to believe my eyes.

 

[Big Sky Cane]

I don't think anyone is saying even remotely that Temple was DT U. Smfh.

The point that was made was it is complete nonsense to believe our DL are being taught to play patty cake, when this staff was able to take a 2-star basketball player and in three years turn him into a 1st round "elite 3-4 DE prospect" (NFL.com). He then proceeded to start immediately for the Jets, and immediately was an impact player. None of this happens if he isn't coached properly.

Wilkerson was not a "2 star". Dude was a high 3 star coming out of prep school. Since he went to prep school he also had an extra year of development. That is ONE ******* kid, who else did dorito and golden "develop" and help to get drafted that played on the Dline. Central Michigan and whoever is the coach there "developed" Eric fisher. Memphis and whoever was/is the coach there "developed" Dontari Poe lol.

Currently in the league, developed by Golden, D'Onofrio & Franklin

Muhammad Wilkerson-DT New York Jets

Terrance Knighton- DT Denver Broncos

Brian Sanford- DE Oakland Raiders

Out of the league but played (years) and Coached by Golden/Franklin


Andre Neblett 2010-2013 (Panthers/Patriots)

 

[gogeta4]

I don't think anyone is saying even remotely that Temple was DT U. Smfh.

The point that was made was it is complete nonsense to believe our DL are being taught to play patty cake, when this staff was able to take a 2-star basketball player and in three years turn him into a 1st round "elite 3-4 DE prospect" (NFL.com). He then proceeded to start immediately for the Jets, and immediately was an impact player. None of this happens if he isn't coached properly.

Wilkerson was not a "2 star". Dude was a high 3 star coming out of prep school. Since he went to prep school he also had an extra year of development. That is ONE ****ing kid, who else did dorito and golden "develop" and help to get drafted that played on the Dline. Central Michigan and whoever is the coach there "developed" Eric fisher. Memphis and whoever was/is the coach there "developed" Dontari Poe lol.

Currently in the league, developed by Golden, D'Onofrio & Franklin

Muhammad Wilkerson-DT New York Jets

Terrance Knighton- DT Denver Broncos

Brian Sanford- DE Oakland Raiders

Out of the league but played (years) and Coached by Golden/Franklin


Andre Neblett 2010-2013 (Panthers/Patriots)

Clint Hurtt's resume's better.

Though Wilkerson is a BEAST...and Knighton can play..his younger brother is a redshirt for us right now.

 

[FullyERicht]

Who did exactly did Clint Hurtt put in the league? backup end Allen Bailey? Practice squad Forston?

 

[Big Sky Cane]

I don't think anyone is saying even remotely that Temple was DT U. Smfh.

The point that was made was it is complete nonsense to believe our DL are being taught to play patty cake, when this staff was able to take a 2-star basketball player and in three years turn him into a 1st round "elite 3-4 DE prospect" (NFL.com). He then proceeded to start immediately for the Jets, and immediately was an impact player. None of this happens if he isn't coached properly.

Wilkerson was not a "2 star". Dude was a high 3 star coming out of prep school. Since he went to prep school he also had an extra year of development. That is ONE ****ing kid, who else did dorito and golden "develop" and help to get drafted that played on the Dline. Central Michigan and whoever is the coach there "developed" Eric fisher. Memphis and whoever was/is the coach there "developed" Dontari Poe lol.

Currently in the league, developed by Golden, D'Onofrio & Franklin

Muhammad Wilkerson-DT New York Jets

Terrance Knighton- DT Denver Broncos

Brian Sanford- DE Oakland Raiders

Out of the league but played (years) and Coached by Golden/Franklin


Andre Neblett 2010-2013 (Panthers/Patriots)

Clint Hurtt's resume's better.

Though Wilkerson is a BEAST...and Knighton can play..his younger brother is a redshirt for us right now.

Well Jesus....he should, he's coached at Miami and Louisville. In the years 2008-2012 (What I'm considering Golden's guys at Temple) Miami has produced four Defensive Lineman that have played at least two years in the league.

Calais Campbell, Allen Bailey, Oliver Vernon and Marcus Forston.

That is exactly the same number that Golden's coaches have produced @ TEMPLE during the same time period. You could make a good argument that Temple's 4 have been more productive in the league too.

 

[Big Sky Cane]

Junior Galette (DE) played three season's for Golden @ Temple as well. He's in the league for the Saints and has been for 4 years. He got kicked off the team after his Jr. year and played @ a Div. 2 school his Sr. season.

 

[LuCane]

What is being argued? Whether or not Golden and Co. develop DL talent?

 

[Big Sky Cane]

What is being argued? Whether or not Golden and Co. develop DL talent?

I'm not sure....I got in late and answered TP801's question that said "who else did dorito and golden "develop" and help to get drafted that played on the Dline".

I provided some facts.

 

[CaneAlmighty]

What is being argued? Whether or not Golden and Co. develop DL talent?

There is an assertion that recruits don't want to play in Golden schemes because it will lower their NFL draft value which has since been debunked.

 

[FullyERicht]

I don't think anyone is saying even remotely that Temple was DT U. Smfh.

The point that was made was it is complete nonsense to believe our DL are being taught to play patty cake, when this staff was able to take a 2-star basketball player and in three years turn him into a 1st round "elite 3-4 DE prospect" (NFL.com). He then proceeded to start immediately for the Jets, and immediately was an impact player. None of this happens if he isn't coached properly.

Wilkerson was not a "2 star". Dude was a high 3 star coming out of prep school. Since he went to prep school he also had an extra year of development. That is ONE ****ing kid, who else did dorito and golden "develop" and help to get drafted that played on the Dline. Central Michigan and whoever is the coach there "developed" Eric fisher. Memphis and whoever was/is the coach there "developed" Dontari Poe lol.

Currently in the league, developed by Golden, D'Onofrio & Franklin

Muhammad Wilkerson-DT New York Jets

Terrance Knighton- DT Denver Broncos

Brian Sanford- DE Oakland Raiders

Out of the league but played (years) and Coached by Golden/Franklin


Andre Neblett 2010-2013 (Panthers/Patriots)

Clint Hurtt's resume's better.

Though Wilkerson is a BEAST...and Knighton can play..his younger brother is a redshirt for us right now.

Well Jesus....he should, he's coached at Miami and Louisville. In the years 2008-2012 (What I'm considering Golden's guys at Temple) Miami has produced four Defensive Lineman that have played at least two years in the league.

Calais Campbell, Allen Bailey, Oliver Vernon and Marcus Forston.

That is exactly the same number that Golden's coaches have produced @ TEMPLE during the same time period. You could make a good argument that Temple's 4 have been more productive in the league too.

Olivier Vernon spent half a year under Hurtt. He spent more time with Jethro.

Forston can't even beat out two white rookie DTs! And Bailey is mediocre at best.

 

[FullyERicht]

WCD:

Are you really telling me you don't see us pattern matching? Watch the Pitt game and tell me what 52 and 51 are doing. Just bc Gaines fcks it up literally every time, same as all the other LBs doesn't mean we don't do it. We just suck at it. But that would mean recognizing a massive elephant in the room which is our LB coach (who they had to move to specials at first bc he didn't know the D) is terrible.

 

[Coach Macho]

WCD:

Are you really telling me you don't see us pattern matching? Watch the Pitt game and tell me what 52 and 51 are doing. Just bc Gaines fcks it up literally every time, same as all the other LBs doesn't mean we don't do it. We just suck at it. But that would mean recognizing a massive elephant in the room which is our LB coach (who they had to move to specials at first bc he didn't know the D) is terrible.

I watch the LB's and i often see them starring at the QB during their drops.

Question:

Before we even go any further, do you know exactly what pattern matching is and how it's executed?

If you don't, then how do you know what to look for?

And if we are pattern matching, we still suck at it in year 3. So who's fault is that? You gonna sit here and tell me that our kids are too dumb to read WR's?

 

[Coach Macho]

Nice little write-up on the 3-4 and it's different variants. (1-gap vs. 2-gap)

http://www.shakinthesouthland.com/2013/8/19/4631446/georgia-and-the-3-4-defense

 

[FullyERicht]

Cover 2 read, #1 runs a slant, you dont want CB reading QBs eyes to jump the flat? LBs with flat responsibility shouldn't be reading the QB at any point? How about if 2 goes vertical on their side and they have hook/curl responsibility? You don't want them then reading the QB to break on crossing routes? How about in a fire zone three underneath? What about various Robber calls? How about after pattern distribution? Or perhaps what you are seeing is guys keying run/pass.

It's a gross oversimplification to say that bc a player reads the backfield it means we don't pattern match.