Personnel for a two-gap 3-4 next year

[Coach Macho]

Cover 2 read, #1 runs a slant, you dont want CB reading QBs eyes to jump the flat? LBs with flat responsibility shouldn't be reading the QB at any point? How about if 2 goes vertical on their side and they have hook/curl responsibility? You don't want them then reading the QB to break on crossing routes? How about in a fire zone three underneath? What about various Robber calls? How about after pattern distribution? Or perhaps what you are seeing is guys keying run/pass.

It's a gross oversimplification to say that bc a player reads the backfield it means we don't pattern match.

Question...

Let's say #2 does go vertical. How's the LB suppose to know that there's a crossing route coming his way if he's looking at the QB? (and not the #1 WR)

That's the problem. As #2 goes vertical our LB would be sitting there starring at the QB instead of high-tailing his *** to the apex of #1. Meanwhile #1 simply hitches up in the bubble of our zone. Easy completion for 7+ yards.

LB reads in the Cover-2 are 2-to-1 (vs. 2 WR's to his side). If #2 goes vertical the LB gets depth with him, and as he's getting depth he snaps his head/eyes to #1 to see if #1 is running a shallow route/crosser or dig towards him. If #1 runs anything towards him he comes off of #2 and breaks on (or "walls") the route of #1. At that point is when you can snap your head back to the QB and make a play on the throw.

A LB who's starring at the QB will never know that these routes are coming at him.

 

[Coach Macho]

And no I don't want my CB standing in the flats twiddling his thumbs if #1 runs a slant.

How do I know #2 is going to flats? How do I know he's not running a post-corner? (thus putting my Safety in a difficult match-up)

 

[FullyERicht]

Lol I love how you ignore the Cover Blue/Sink example. Convenient.

Secondly thanks for making my point. The LB is looking for 1 coming at him, at which point he then can read the QB! So seeing a LB reading a QB means nothing without context.

When I see Jimmy Gaines ******* up but Perryman executing, I'm goig to assume its more because a) Jimy Gaines is a 2 star kid that shouldn't be here b) we have no other experienced LBs bc nothing was left over.

It's not year three for Grace, Blue, Figs and Kirby. As an OLB it's not year three for AQM or McCord. It's year one for most of those cats. The guys who actually have learned most of the coverages (bc they have repped it enough by now) are all talentless kids.

But since you feel that by year three our kids can't do it, then you must be adamant that Barrow should be canned.....right?

 

[FullyERicht]

And no I don't want my CB standing in the flats twiddling his thumbs if #1 runs a slant.

How do I know #2 is going to flats? How do I know he's not running a post-corner? (thus putting my Safety in a difficult match-up)

Who said he was standing there? He reads 2 that's how he knows. He attempts to re route 1, and THEN READS THE QB. This lets him know if he needs to jump #2 in the flat, blow him up, or get outside leverage on him and play the ball.

The safety reads two. If he does anything besides run outside and short the S takes 1, doubles him, or READS THE QB for a deep cross from the other side. He is now given the option to double team or play his deep zone.

 

[FullyERicht]

Also, if 2 goes vertical and one runs a shallow cross, the LB can simply be dropping after only reading 2, read the QB and be alerted to a crosser from 1 via a call from the CB or S such as "IN!"......

 

[Coach Macho]

Lol I love how you ignore the Cover Blue/Sink example. Convenient.

Secondly thanks for making my point. The LB is looking for 1 coming at him, at which point he then can read the QB! So seeing a LB reading a QB means nothing without context.

When I see Jimmy Gaines ******* up but Perryman executing, I'm goig to assume its more because a) Jimy Gaines is a 2 star kid that shouldn't be here b) we have no other experienced LBs bc nothing was left over.

It's not year three for Grace, Blue, Figs and Kirby. As an OLB it's not year three for AQM or McCord. It's year one for most of those cats. The guys who actually have learned most of the coverages (bc they have repped it enough by now) are all talentless kids.

But since you feel that by year three our kids can't do it, then you must be adamant that Barrow should be canned.....right?

I don't understand. What example did I ignore?

 

[Coach Macho]

Lol I love how you ignore the Cover Blue/Sink example. Convenient.

Secondly thanks for making my point. The LB is looking for 1 coming at him, at which point he then can read the QB! So seeing a LB reading a QB means nothing without context.

When I see Jimmy Gaines ******* up but Perryman executing, I'm goig to assume its more because a) Jimy Gaines is a 2 star kid that shouldn't be here b) we have no other experienced LBs bc nothing was left over.

It's not year three for Grace, Blue, Figs and Kirby. As an OLB it's not year three for AQM or McCord. It's year one for most of those cats. The guys who actually have learned most of the coverages (bc they have repped it enough by now) are all talentless kids.

But since you feel that by year three our kids can't do it, then you must be adamant that Barrow should be canned.....right?

First off, I'm seeing the LB's read the QB but NOT GET TO THE WR's. That's my whole issue. Their stagnant and looking at the QB.

When do you see Gaines **** up but not Perryman? Perryman is terrible in zone coverage too. They all are.

You're actually implying that our kids aren't talented enough to play match-zone? LOL

 

[Coach Macho]

Also, if 2 goes vertical and one runs a shallow cross, the LB can simply be dropping after only reading 2, read the QB and be alerted to a crosser from 1 via a call from the CB or S such as "IN!"......

Doesn't matter if he's alerted or not. He still needs to SEE the WR. He needs to SEE #1 coming at him so he can know the exact depth he needs, so he can meet #1 at the epex of his route.

You can alert me to a crosser all you want but if I'm starring at the QB the whole time then I don't know what depth the crosser is at.

 

[Coach Macho]

And no I don't want my CB standing in the flats twiddling his thumbs if #1 runs a slant.

How do I know #2 is going to flats? How do I know he's not running a post-corner? (thus putting my Safety in a difficult match-up)

Who said he was standing there? He reads 2 that's how he knows. He attempts to re route 1, and THEN READS THE QB. This lets him know if he needs to jump #2 in the flat, blow him up, or get outside leverage on him and play the ball.

The safety reads two. If he does anything besides run outside and short the S takes 1, doubles him, or READS THE QB for a deep cross from the other side. He is now given the option to double team or play his deep zone.

You asked me if I wanted my CB eyeing the QB so he can jump a flat route.

I said no. The QB isn't telling me ****. The QB isn't telling me if there's a flat route by #2. NUMBER 2 IS TELLING ME.

The Safety is also reading 2-to-1. If the #2 WR releases/stems vertically then he mans him up. That's his guy all the way.
If #2 goes IN or OUT then the Safety robs #1. (i.e. he drives on digs, verticals, posts or slants from #1)

Are you saying that if #2 runs short or outside then the Safety has him?

 

[LuCane]

And no I don't want my CB standing in the flats twiddling his thumbs if #1 runs a slant.

How do I know #2 is going to flats? How do I know he's not running a post-corner? (thus putting my Safety in a difficult match-up)

Who said he was standing there? He reads 2 that's how he knows. He attempts to re route 1, and THEN READS THE QB. This lets him know if he needs to jump #2 in the flat, blow him up, or get outside leverage on him and play the ball.

The safety reads two. If he does anything besides run outside and short the S takes 1, doubles him, or READS THE QB for a deep cross from the other side. He is now given the option to double team or play his deep zone.

You asked me if I wanted my CB eyeing the QB so he can jump a flat route.

I said no. The QB isn't telling me ****. The QB isn't telling me if there's a flat route by #2. NUMBER 2 IS TELLING ME.

The Safety is also reading 2-to-1. If the #2 WR releases/stems vertically then he mans him up. That's his guy all the way.
If #2 goes IN or OUT then the Safety robs #1. (i.e. he drives on digs, verticals, posts or slants from #1)

Are you saying that if #2 runs short or outside then the Safety has him?

The reality is that there are a finite number of combination patterns teams are going to run in these scenarios. Smash concept. Flood concept. 2 Verticals. Vertical with a drag underneath. Etc. Their chances of successful execution would all be greatly reduced if we didn't combine what we do back there with playing contain up front. It's hard as **** to get a jump on some of these combination routes if the WR has an extra two yards to test your cushion.

 

[FullyERicht]

And no I don't want my CB standing in the flats twiddling his thumbs if #1 runs a slant.

How do I know #2 is going to flats? How do I know he's not running a post-corner? (thus putting my Safety in a difficult match-up)

Who said he was standing there? He reads 2 that's how he knows. He attempts to re route 1, and THEN READS THE QB. This lets him know if he needs to jump #2 in the flat, blow him up, or get outside leverage on him and play the ball.

The safety reads two. If he does anything besides run outside and short the S takes 1, doubles him, or READS THE QB for a deep cross from the other side. He is now given the option to double team or play his deep zone.

You asked me if I wanted my CB eyeing the QB so he can jump a flat route.

I said no. The QB isn't telling me ****. The QB isn't telling me if there's a flat route by #2. NUMBER 2 IS TELLING ME.

The Safety is also reading 2-to-1. If the #2 WR releases/stems vertically then he mans him up. That's his guy all the way.
If #2 goes IN or OUT then the Safety robs #1. (i.e. he drives on digs, verticals, posts or slants from #1)

Are you saying that if #2 runs short or outside then the Safety has him?

Jesus Christ not at all. I'm talking about a CB in cover blue. He reads 2 coming to the flat, redirects one. He then reads the QB. Why? Bc if he assumes the pass is to the flat, and the 2 runs a wheel route it's 7 points. If he waits to read if 2 is running the wheel, he is in no position to stop a pass to the flat (aka 2 isn't running a wheel). He HAS to read the QB. It's the only way he knows if the pass is coming immediately or if he needs to play the wheel route. Unless you are a fan of 5 yard completions to the flat all game, or wheel routes goig for 80 yards

 

[Coach Macho]

And no I don't want my CB standing in the flats twiddling his thumbs if #1 runs a slant.

How do I know #2 is going to flats? How do I know he's not running a post-corner? (thus putting my Safety in a difficult match-up)

Who said he was standing there? He reads 2 that's how he knows. He attempts to re route 1, and THEN READS THE QB. This lets him know if he needs to jump #2 in the flat, blow him up, or get outside leverage on him and play the ball.

The safety reads two. If he does anything besides run outside and short the S takes 1, doubles him, or READS THE QB for a deep cross from the other side. He is now given the option to double team or play his deep zone.

You asked me if I wanted my CB eyeing the QB so he can jump a flat route.

I said no. The QB isn't telling me ****. The QB isn't telling me if there's a flat route by #2. NUMBER 2 IS TELLING ME.

The Safety is also reading 2-to-1. If the #2 WR releases/stems vertically then he mans him up. That's his guy all the way.
If #2 goes IN or OUT then the Safety robs #1. (i.e. he drives on digs, verticals, posts or slants from #1)

Are you saying that if #2 runs short or outside then the Safety has him?

Jesus Christ not at all. I'm talking about a CB in cover blue. He reads 2 coming to the flat, redirects one. He then reads the QB. Why? Bc if he assumes the pass is to the flat, and the 2 runs a wheel route it's 7 points. If he waits to read if 2 is running the wheel, he is in no position to stop a pass to the flat (aka 2 isn't running a wheel). He HAS to read the QB. It's the only way he knows if the pass is coming immediately or if he needs to play the wheel route. Unless you are a fan of 5 yard completions to the flat all game, or wheel routes goig for 80 yards

Right. And if the QB pumps as the WR is running the wheel? Yeah. 6 points.

When a team plays 2-sink it's usually in a scenario where they're not worried about a 5 yard out.

You're talking to me as if I said they're NEVER suppose to look at the QB. That's not what I said. A defender has to make his reads and identify the routes BEFORE he snaps his head to the QB.

If the CB sees an out from #2 he will stop sinking and he'll break on the route when it's thrown. He can't break too early cause of the wheel. (of course) I'm not saying that he can't look at the QB. In the instance of an out-route from #2, the CB has identified the WR's initial stem and he can now look at the QB for the ball.

That whole post you just made literally has nothing to do with my issue. NOTHING. It was a waste of both of our time. What you said about the CB looking at the QB in Cover-2 is true but that wasn't my problem. Of course he's gotta look at the QB after route distribution.

Besides, what our CB's are doing has never been an issue. It's more about our intermediate pass defense. We're getting off track arguing over CB reads in Cover-2.

 

[FullyERicht]

So if our CBs are not an issue, and are able to pattern match just fine, why do our LBs stink at it? It cannot be that we are incapable of teaching it or don't know about it. It's probably bc we have a 2-star kid from buffalo, a 2-star kid with no knees, and a 3 star kid from Georgia as 3/4th of our starting LB corps? It's also probably bc Barrow is an awful coach.

The defense sucks. D'Onofrio needs to be fired. But it's not bc he and Golden don't know pattern matching.

 

[Coach Macho]

So if our CBs are not an issue, and are able to pattern match just fine, why do our LBs stink at it? It cannot be that we are incapable of teaching it or don't know about it. It's probably bc we have a 2-star kid from buffalo, a 2-star kid with no knees, and a 3 star kid from Georgia as 3/4th of our starting LB corps? It's also probably bc Barrow is an awful coach.

The defense sucks. D'Onofrio needs to be fired. But it's not bc he and Golden don't know pattern matching.

But it doesn't take 5-stars to get to the apex of a route.

They're not failing at it because they're unathletic. THEY'RE LOST. They're not even close to where they need to be. And FWIW, our best LB sucks at pass coverage too.

What the CB's do is irrelevant. I don't know what's being taught to the CB's. I don't know what their rules are. I'm just speaking on general 2-sink rules.

But I can tell you this much from teaching it to my kids: Being able to pattern match intermediately is alot different than doing it on the outside. (at CB) What we were talking about were just the general rules of 2-sink. 2-sink is a coverage, not a principle. Your CB's can play 2-sink with your LB's spot dropping.

Regardless, back to my original point. It doesn't take 4-star and 5-star athletes to get to the apex of a route. I did it with LB's who were 5'7" and ran 4.9-5.3 forties. Miami's LB's aren't even close, that's the issue. If they simply lacked talent they would atleast be close to where they need to be. I know exactly what that's like.

 

[CanesAreAble]

The reality is that there are a finite number of combination patterns teams are going to run in these scenarios. Smash concept. Flood concept. 2 Verticals. Vertical with a drag underneath. Etc. Their chances of successful execution would all be greatly reduced if we didn't combine what we do back there with playing contain up front. It's hard as **** to get a jump on some of these combination routes if the WR has an extra two yards to test your cushion.

I might've asked you this before, and perhaps it could be its own thread, but what do you think the paradigm is for Golden/MDO's defense?

What do you think this defense looks like when it's operating how they want it?


All I can really say is we want to be "multiple" but philosophically, I'm not sure. The weird thing about Golden is he says all the right things in interviews, but the product looks different on the field. ***Cue car salesman joke***.

But seriously. He talks about getting TFLs, getting off the field on 3rd down, eliminating "cupcake" throws, etc... but we keep seeing it. Either those things aren't that important, or for whatever reason (coaching, talent, etc...) he's unable to produce those results with this group of players.

 

[QuadCityCane]

The reality is that there are a finite number of combination patterns teams are going to run in these scenarios. Smash concept. Flood concept. 2 Verticals. Vertical with a drag underneath. Etc. Their chances of successful execution would all be greatly reduced if we didn't combine what we do back there with playing contain up front. It's hard as **** to get a jump on some of these combination routes if the WR has an extra two yards to test your cushion.

I might've asked you this before, and perhaps it could be its own thread, but what do you think the paradigm is for Golden/MDO's defense?

What do you think this defense looks like when it's operating how they want it?


All I can really say is we want to be "multiple" but philosophically, I'm not sure. The weird thing about Golden is he says all the right things in interviews, but the product looks different on the field. ***Cue car salesman joke***.

But seriously. He talks about getting TFLs, getting off the field on 3rd down, eliminating "cupcake" throws, etc... but we keep seeing it. Either those things aren't that important, or for whatever reason (coaching, talent, etc...) he's unable to produce those results with this group of players.

They want all those things I'm sure because they have done it before with other defenses. I illustrated most of this in my extra long blog post but if you look at every miami defense from 2011 and before. They all had at least average+ strong safety play. Now this isnt to say its just the players because it is not. The fact the coaches over the last two years have used a revolving door at the safety position is causing them to play and look confused, which then causes the coaches to not believe in them, so they then dont use them as much to help protect the linebackers. One giant circle of failure.
Fix the safety philosophy by finding 1 and sticking with them and most of the problems on defense will go away. Guys like Jo Jo(2011, Goldens first year) and Ray Ray(shannons last year) were not world beaters at SS but they were good enough to help produce defenses that gave up 20 points a game. Every SS for Miami 2011 and before finished in the top 4 in tackles, just like most average or better defenses in college, in 2012 Miamis best SS was 10th and in 2013 they are 13th in tackles.

 

[LuCane]

The reality is that there are a finite number of combination patterns teams are going to run in these scenarios. Smash concept. Flood concept. 2 Verticals. Vertical with a drag underneath. Etc. Their chances of successful execution would all be greatly reduced if we didn't combine what we do back there with playing contain up front. It's hard as **** to get a jump on some of these combination routes if the WR has an extra two yards to test your cushion.

I might've asked you this before, and perhaps it could be its own thread, but what do you think the paradigm is for Golden/MDO's defense?

What do you think this defense looks like when it's operating how they want it?


All I can really say is we want to be "multiple" but philosophically, I'm not sure. The weird thing about Golden is he says all the right things in interviews, but the product looks different on the field. ***Cue car salesman joke***.

But seriously. He talks about getting TFLs, getting off the field on 3rd down, eliminating "cupcake" throws, etc... but we keep seeing it. Either those things aren't that important, or for whatever reason (coaching, talent, etc...) he's unable to produce those results with this group of players.

They want all those things I'm sure because they have done it before with other defenses. I illustrated most of this in my extra long blog post but if you look at every miami defense from 2011 and before. They all had at least average+ strong safety play. Now this isnt to say its just the players because it is not. The fact the coaches over the last two years have used a revolving door at the safety position is causing them to play and look confused, which then causes the coaches to not believe in them, so they then dont use them as much to help protect the linebackers. One giant circle of failure.
Fix the safety philosophy by finding 1 and sticking with them and most of the problems on defense will go away. Guys like Jo Jo(2011, Goldens first year) and Ray Ray(shannons last year) were not world beaters at SS but they were good enough to help produce defenses that gave up 20 points a game. Every SS for Miami 2011 and before finished in the top 4 in tackles, just like most average or better defenses in college, in 2012 Miamis best SS was 10th and in 2013 they are 13th in tackles.

I'm still not completely following this rationale. Fixing the Safety position (an obvious disaster) will not fix our core issues of DL style and the broader issue of allowing offenses to dictate our defense.

Able,

To answer your question, I have no idea what the ideal version of this would be. I don't think we're anywhere close because my brain and gut have gotten together to hope that Golden/D'Ono wouldn't play this style with better players.

 

[rok]

The safety position gets fixed by moving Burns.

Bush, Jenkins, Burns, Carter

 

[Coach Macho]

Safety is our main issue now? I'd just like to stop people from getting to our safeties first. Let's start there. lol

 

[Big Sky Cane]

Safety is our main issue now? I'd just like to stop people from getting to our safeties first. Let's start there. lol

http://coachjbird.blogspot.com/2013/08/finallydefense-some-defensive-ideas-and.html

Here is a Golden "concept" on using the safties to stop the run.