2018 nfl combine thread

Bruh why are you seriously comparing Mark Waltons production to Duke Johnsons though? lol, its honestly kinda ridiculous because Duke is the BEST rb in our history, statistically. Also you're arguing with me over it, who was NOT one of the people claiming Mark Walton was going to be some elite player. I've been saying 4th round. Mark Walton has the potential and production to be an NFL player. And you can talk about nonP5 and P5 games all you want, but its not a negative that he beats up on lesser competition. Those 2 games were still elite, regardless who it was against.

Secondly I really am not understanding why you're putting so much emphasis on his yardage % against Non-P5 teams. ANY RB that plays 5 games vs non-p5 and 10 games vs P5, should probably be getting pretty close to 50/50. You wanna know why? Because good RBs should absolutely be beating up on the bad teams. If a guy averages 100ypg in a P5 game, Its not too much to expect him to avg 200ypg in nonP5 games. ...after you do the math, that literally comes out to 50/50 on the yardage - 1k from P5, 1k from NonP5.

Because ELITE RBs will basically max out around 130ypg (Adrian Peterson) in their career and great RBs get above 100ypg (Duke Johnson had like 106 ypg or something).

anyways, Ultimately you're just ignoring Waltons progression, which is why you really don't want to throw out what he did as a frosh. When the fact is he just wasn't ready to play. As a sophomore he should have been the backup who gets around 30-40% of snaps. and his junior year he should have been THE guy...then declared for draft. Unfortunately it didn't work out that way. But he was never this elite talent coming out of HS either. and If our RB core had looked like a Miami RB core should have.

btw I expect Travis Homer to end his career with a better ypc, more rushing yards, and less attempts than Mark Walton. And I think Homer will also test better at the combine, especially in the broad/vertical jumps.

Haha - I was going to ask the same of you. My last post comparing Duke to Walton was a response to your post. I was comparing Walton to Duke/Berry/James/Yearby - but you chose a section of Walton's career to make the comparison to Duke and didn't acknowledge the other RB's I was including.

I think we both agree Duke is way better than Walton, and Duke was a 3rd round pick. So why would Walton be a 4th?

If you take Walton's 4.4 ypc just his Soph year vs. P5, he's still below Yearby/Berry/Cooper. I agree Walton went from awful to solid in his Freshman to Soph years - but "solid" doesn't equate to a 4th round pick. His overall production+athleticism combined is more on a par with the undrafted Miami RB's.

I'm concentrating on the % of Walton's stats in Non-P5 vs. P5 to show that Walton is racking up his overall stats against Non-P5 way more than any other RB, and his dropoff from Non-P5 to P5 is way steeper. If you just look at his P5 from just his Soph year, Walton still wasn't good in 6 out of 10 games, he has a lower ypc but better TD rate than Cooper & Yearby, and is lower in both than Berry.

This isn't me arguing with you - I'm just getting my general take on Walton vs. How I think most people feel from the posts I read. Here's the difference for me:

Here's Walton's ypc in games vs. P5 starting his Soph year - 2.9, 2.8, 3.4, 3.5, 2.5, 8.9, 6.9, 6.3, 4.5, 3.1, 3.0, 2.5

- Where some see progression, I see Walton reverting to the norm. His ypc literally decreased his last 7 games in a row.
- When Walton averaged 7.7+ ypc in the first 3 games of his Soph year, most thought he was completely changed and improved. I saw a better but basically the same RB, and said wait until we start playing some good teams. Sure enough, he averaged 3.5 or less ypc in his next 5 games.
- Then he has a streak of 3 games over 6+ ypc. Those were statistically great games, no question. But again, I didn't see any transformation. Sure enough, he averages 3.1 or less in 3 of the next 4.
- I think it's overstated how much his ankle affected him in the Duke & FSU games this year. He said he was 100%, reports were it looked like it was no problem in practice, and Richt leaned on him heavily. If his ankle was such a problem against Duke, why was Richt still running Walton late in the 4th up 18 with us playing FSU next week? Walton averaged 3.5 ypc or less in 6 of his 10 P5 games, so why would it be a surprise to anyone when he averaged 3.0 ypc again in 2 P5 games in 2017. The whole overdramatic "he was running on one leg" thing was a justification for those bad games, which was really just the norm for Walton.
- When Yearby wasn't good his Frosh year it was "he was coming off a serious leg injury". Yearby's first 4 games his Soph year were great, but then he fell off when we started playing better teams. It then became "he was playing behind the worst OL to ever play at Miami". There's always an excuse when really, Yearby & Walton just weren't that great of RB's.
- If Walton was healthy, he would've still had some big games this year. He would've had some really bad ones too.
- I understand if people think Walton would've had a big year this year. But for the draft, when you go to look at the what he's put on tape, there's not much to look at vs. good opponents.

I agree with you on Homer as an athlete. Homer is a better RB, and very clearly a better athlete than Walton.

I disagree that Walton should have been THE guy this year. I think Homer was better, and should've been the starter. That's why I don't understand the "Walton will make the NFL on Special Teams" thing. Homer is also easily better in kick coverage than Walton, and that one's not really close.
 
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I like Walton, always have. I think he's tough, runs hard and does everything for his team. With that said, I think it's been a while since we had an actual elite RB here. We've forgotten what they look like. Other than Duke and Miller we've had a bunch of "serviceable" guys, which is a **** shame considering we're the University of Miami and our backyard breeds RB's. (they keep signing with other schools though)

By elite I mean the type of guy that takes over games in college, becomes an early draft pick, NFL starter, etc.
I think we may see that with Lingard.

I agree 100% with this.

It sucks that we lost out on Collins/Michel/Cook, etc.

So a lot of people spent time trying to convince themselves that Yearby & Walton were just as good. Both were both productive, and Walton is a great guy and gave his heart for the team, no question. But both were an obvious tier below the guys we missed out on, talent wise. The other guys were obviously bigger, faster, more athletic....just better.

I think now with Homer/Dallas/Lingard - we have a stable of RB's that have size, speed, athleticism. No need to convince ourselves they're talented, they just simply are. They're going to be fun to watch.
 
I agree 100% with this.

It sucks that we lost out on Collins/Michel/Cook, etc.

So a lot of people spent time trying to convince themselves that Yearby & Walton were just as good. Both were both productive, and Walton is a great guy and gave his heart for the team, no question. But both were an obvious tier below the guys we missed out on, talent wise. The other guys were obviously bigger, faster, more athletic....just better.

I think now with Homer/Dallas/Lingard - we have a stable of RB's that have size, speed, athleticism. No need to convince ourselves they're talented, they just simply are. They're going to be fun to watch.
Yeah this is definitely the most talented stable we have had in a while
Homer
Dallad
Lingard
Davis
Burns
Size and speed for all of them
 
Duke and Walton are pretty similar to me. Walton was going to have a monster year before getting hurt. Both guys are pure football players who do a lot of things well.

Duke is probably a better pure runner, Walton is better in the RZ and pass pro. Both are elite pass catchers at the running back position.
 
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Duke and Walton are pretty similar to me. Walton was going to have a monster year before getting hurt. Both guys are pure football players who do a lot of things well.

Duke is probably a better pure runner, Walton is better in the RZ and pass pro. Both are elite pass catchers at the running back position.
Yeah Walton would have put up a 1400 yard plus season if not for the injury. Duke excelled at some areas that Walton didn’t and the same could be said for Walton as well
 
Duke and Walton are pretty similar to me. Walton was going to have a monster year before getting hurt. Both guys are pure football players who do a lot of things well.

Duke is probably a better pure runner, Walton is better in the RZ and pass pro. Both are elite pass catchers at the running back position.

D$ - I really respect your opinion, but what's your thought process here?

If you feel they're similar - What reasons do you attribute to Duke putting up such bigger numbers at both the HS & College levels?
 
JuMosq on Twitter kind of ripped off the formula from some oldheads on footballsfuture, but he's been great in disseminating this throughout.

the hit rate for EDGE players with sub 6.90 3Cone is f'n insane Combine that with other measures, and you can adequately determine what will be at the least a productive pass rusher on a per dollar basis (most expensive state to acquire is the sack). You've just narrowed down your R1 board and targeted some late round guys with some singular measure. I wouldn't take a non-force player in R1 on the edge. You can watch all the tape you want...and maybe you get a solid player, but my player will likely be better. Think the Jaguars would like to go back and take Vic Beasley over Dante Fowler (who is "solid" by every definition)? Think the Jets would take Melvin Ingram over Quentin Coples now? Think teams would have left Vinny Curry, Brian Robinson, KGB, Cliff Avril slide out of R1 now? I mean, the data shows they were going to be productive and they are.

On the flipside...the hit rate for OL with sub4.44 shuttles is pretty **** high...

The metrics don't force anyone to dismiss film and "can they actually play"...that is kind of a pre-requisite...but metrics certain help you cut the bull****. Want a slot guy? Not every white guy is putting together 3Cone and Short Shuttle scores in the 95th percentile...but if you want a slot guy, that is what they have. Sure, Cooper Kupp doesn't have that, but Cooper Kupp also was one of the most productive WR in the history of CFB. He can play.

As Zach Whitman has pinnted on twitter...

Not all good athletes are good players
Very few poor athletes are good players
Most great players are great athletes

btw - to my dude gogeta...you mention Allen Hurns...the metrics actually would have supported him being drafted. WR has a high hit rate on phenom scores and age adjusted production...Hurn's career had a comparable early on to Robert Woods, who was drafted in R2 the year prior to Hurns graduating. The production metrics say Hurns probably should have been a 2nd o 3rd round choice. Metrics would have helped you here.

On the flip side...lets see how Calvin Ridley pans out. I've not liked him in college...but a lot of what the numbers say about him help support my assertion. Breakout age was over 20 years old (thats 40th percentile). SPARQ score is horrendous and borderline undraftable. Age adjusted production numbers are really really bad. But...can he play? Sure. I've seen some really poor comps out there for Ridley...Jared Abberderis and Sammie Stroughter after his poor combine. But, then I've also seen him projected as a Top 10 selection the entire off-season. My comparison is more of a DeDe Westbrook type. Overage, below average athlete with some talent, but ultimately more of a 3rd option, 2nd option on a team with a ton of injuries. 3rd/4th round type.

Who do I like at WR...Courtland Sutton, DJ Chark, DJ Moore, ESB from Notre Dame...I'd wager money they end up better than Ridley in the league and all will likely be drafted after him. On the flipside...I hate Christian Kirk's film...but the metrics project strong to a Golden Tate type career...and that's pretty great. Lets see how this year's crop turns out in a few years and we can bump this, I suppose.

Also, I'd take Harold Landry over Bradley Chubb...Sam Hubbard/James Daniels will outperform their draft slot.

JuMosq and Whitman are the dudes.

You're wrong about Chubb though. Yes, his 3-cone is bad, but that's when you go back to the tape and see how he bends around OT's. He'll be good. But in general, Force Players identifies good Edge rushers very well.
 
D$ - I really respect your opinion, but what's your thought process here?

If you feel they're similar - What reasons do you attribute to Duke putting up such bigger numbers at both the HS & College levels?
Dude I've already SHOWED they are similar. Your getting too caught up in the production which is one small aspect of the equation.

ALL his measurables and combine results show he is VERY comparable to Duke, just slightly less athletic...which was expected. Then you look at his play style, again way more similar to Duke than the guys you listed. He is a worse Duke Johnson, that's what he is.

Duke was taken in the 3rd round. He was the 6th RB off the board. There were 11 total RBs drafted that yr in the first 4 rounds. No matter what yr you look at, you will find an average of 10, or more probably, RBs drafted in the first 4 rounds. We'll, Mark Walton is a top 10 RB in this draft, therefore he will end up being a 4th round pick I'm. Walton is not going to go undrafted. it would need like 20 RBs to go ahead of him for that to happen - no chance. Look at this RB class and rank him.
 
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JuMosq and Whitman are the dudes.

You're wrong about Chubb though. Yes, his 3-cone is bad, but that's when you go back to the tape and see how he bends around OT's. He'll be good. But in general, Force Players identifies good Edge rushers very well.
Essentially the tier 1 EDGEs are Davenport, Landry, Key...and Taven Bryan at DT...

Chubb is Tier 2. What this means as far as his 3-cone is cincerned, which he did terrible at, is that chances are he will never be an elite sack artist. That doesn't mean he won't be a great player. It just means he's less likely to get to 20-32 sacks in his rookie contract than Davenport, Landry, and Key
 
D$ - I really respect your opinion, but what's your thought process here?

If you feel they're similar - What reasons do you attribute to Duke putting up such bigger numbers at both the HS & College levels?

Walton was a beast his last year of HS and was poised for a monster season in 2017.

The big difference between the two IMO is that Walton improves steadily while Duke is great from the jump. It was the same thing in high school. Walton kept getting better. At the pro level, I see them having a similar impact.
 
Walton was a beast his last year of HS and was poised for a monster season in 2017.

The big difference between the two IMO is that Walton improves steadily while Duke is great from the jump. It was the same thing in high school. Walton kept getting better. At the pro level, I see them having a similar impact.

I respect your opinion, I really disagree with you here. IMO - Walton showed improvement, but on his best day was never the player Duke was the minute he stepped on campus. I mean...Duke went 7 carries for 135 yds and 2 TD's in his very first game against Boston College. Can you imagine Walton doing that?

High School
- Walton's YPC steadily decreased from his Soph to Senior year - 8.6 to 8.2 to 7.2. A 7.2 ypc your last year is pretty much lower than all other top RB's to come out of South Florida.
- Duke had 1,500 yds & 10+ ypc in his Soph, Junior, and Senior years.

I think a better comp would be another Cleveland Brown & South Florida RB - Matt Dayes

- Matt Dayes HS Sr Year - 266 for 1,878 - 7.1 ypc - 28 TD's
- Walton HS Sr Year - 203 for 1,470 yds - 7.2 ypc - 22 TD's

Dayes showed steady progression at NC St. going from 4.0 ypc (Fr), to 5.5 ypc (So) to 6.5 ypc (Jr). Dayes was having a huge year in 2016, with 865 yds, 6.5 ypc, and 12 TD's thru 8 games before getting injured. He's a great receiver too.

Dayes is a hard working South Florida kid who showed steady improvement, but is a smaller and not a great athlete. He's a 3rd down RB in the NFL, who is a great pass catcher and Special Teams player who was drafted in the 7th Round.

Walton's career college ypc (5.1) is much closer to Dayes (5.2) than it is to Duke (6.7). Both Walton & Dayes kept improving, but their ceiling is below Duke's floor.

Duke has more pass receptions than any NFL RB over the last 3 years. I think it's more realistic Walton makes an NFL team as a scrappy Special Teams player than it is he becomes one of the top pass catching RB's in the NFL.
 
Essentially the tier 1 EDGEs are Davenport, Landry, Key...and Taven Bryan at DT...

Chubb is Tier 2. What this means as far as his 3-cone is cincerned, which he did terrible at, is that chances are he will never be an elite sack artist. That doesn't mean he won't be a great player. It just means he's less likely to get to 20-32 sacks in his rookie contract than Davenport, Landry, and Key

You've got to add in the tape too man. Can't ignore the tape.

You're overthinking Chubb.
 
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You've got to add in the tape too man. Can't ignore the tape.

You're overthinking Chubb.
No I'm not overthinking him. He's my EDGE1.
But that doesn't change the fact that his 3-cone drill was a major disapointment, and shows it'll be less likely he ever reaches 20-32+ sacks on his rookie contract.

Chubb is not the ELITE EDGE that Mack, Miller, Bosa, or even Clowney (who's 3 cone also wasn't that great) etc all were.

Basically I think Chubb will be the better player, but am not convinced he will get as many sacks as a guy like Harold Landry will. And this is due to the fact Chubb will be a major force against the run, whereas Chubb and key probably will never be all that great against the run
 
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I respect your opinion, I really disagree with you here. IMO - Walton showed improvement, but on his best day was never the player Duke was the minute he stepped on campus. I mean...Duke went 7 carries for 135 yds and 2 TD's in his very first game against Boston College. Can you imagine Walton doing that?

High School
- Walton's YPC steadily decreased from his Soph to Senior year - 8.6 to 8.2 to 7.2. A 7.2 ypc your last year is pretty much lower than all other top RB's to come out of South Florida.
- Duke had 1,500 yds & 10+ ypc in his Soph, Junior, and Senior years.

I think a better comp would be another Cleveland Brown & South Florida RB - Matt Dayes

- Matt Dayes HS Sr Year - 266 for 1,878 - 7.1 ypc - 28 TD's
- Walton HS Sr Year - 203 for 1,470 yds - 7.2 ypc - 22 TD's

Dayes showed steady progression at NC St. going from 4.0 ypc (Fr), to 5.5 ypc (So) to 6.5 ypc (Jr). Dayes was having a huge year in 2016, with 865 yds, 6.5 ypc, and 12 TD's thru 8 games before getting injured. He's a great receiver too.

Dayes is a hard working South Florida kid who showed steady improvement, but is a smaller and not a great athlete. He's a 3rd down RB in the NFL, who is a great pass catcher and Special Teams player who was drafted in the 7th Round.

Walton's career college ypc (5.1) is much closer to Dayes (5.2) than it is to Duke (6.7). Both Walton & Dayes kept improving, but their ceiling is below Duke's floor.

Duke has more pass receptions than any NFL RB over the last 3 years. I think it's more realistic Walton makes an NFL team as a scrappy Special Teams player than it is he becomes one of the top pass catching RB's in the NFL.
bruh, ignore stats. look at ALL the measurments between the two, and their combine results.

Not every comparison is a perfect match. Walton and Duke are a great comparison in the TYPE of RB they are. They are not statistically comparable in any way except they both are the type that in the nfl will be starting 3rd down backs and have to work their way up to being THE GUY. We are seeing that with Duke. And with Waltons blocking and catching ability, we will see that with him too. one advantage Walton also has is he legit could be a pro bowl special teams type player as a gunner. Like I've said Walton is a 4th rounder. Duke even as a 3rd rounder is way more skilled than he was.
 
3 cone..?

Ahh man. I played Left tackle in college. Chubb is THAT DEAL. Doesnt take away from a guy like Landry who i like as well.

Does the 3 cone...count for motor??. Because thats my key thing hen evaluating dl...and my man Chubb has alot of it.
 
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No I'm not overthinking him. He's my EDGE1.
But that doesn't change the fact that his 3-cone drill was a major disapointment, and shows it'll be less likely he ever reaches 20-32+ sacks on his rookie contract.

Chubb is not the ELITE EDGE that Mack, Miller, Bosa, or even Clowney (who's 3 cone also wasn't that great) etc all were.

Basically I think Chubb will be the better player, but am not convinced he will get as many sacks as a guy like Harold Landry will. And this is due to the fact Chubb will be a major force against the run, whereas Chubb and key probably will never be all that great against the run

I understand. And I agree with everything.

Wish Key wasn't a head case.
 
3 cone..?

Ahh man. I played Left tackle in college. Chubb is THAT DEAL. Doesnt take away from a guy like Landry who i like as well.

Does the 3 cone...count for motor??. Because thats my key thing hen evaluating dl...and my man Chubb has alot of it.

Almost every elite edge pass rusher has a 3-cone under 7.0 seconds. It's s huge predictor of success.
 
Dude I've already SHOWED they are similar. Your getting too caught up in the production which is one small aspect of the equation.

ALL his measurables and combine results show he is VERY comparable to Duke, just slightly less athletic...which was expected. Then you look at his play style, again way more similar to Duke than the guys you listed. He is a worse Duke Johnson, that's what he is.

Duke was taken in the 3rd round. He was the 6th RB off the board. There were 11 total RBs drafted that yr in the first 4 rounds. No matter what yr you look at, you will find an average of 10, or more probably, RBs drafted in the first 4 rounds. We'll, Mark Walton is a top 10 RB in this draft, therefore he will end up being a 4th round pick I'm. Walton is not going to go undrafted. it would need like 20 RBs to go ahead of him for that to happen - no chance. Look at this RB class and rank him.

C'mon man - Adrian Peterson & Justin Fargas had very similar measurables. You can make some wild comparisons if you're only looking at combine results.

Production is, BY FAR, the most important thing when evaluating a player.

I'll put it to you this way, 12 of the first 13 RB's drafted last year averaged over 6 yards per carry in their college career. So yeah, I'd say production matters.

Walton isn't very good in production, size, speed, or athleticism. It's really hard to pull the trigger on a guy like that in the first 4 rounds. There aren't many examples of it in the last 15 years.

I think there's a pretty solid top 8 RB's at the moment - Barkley, Guice, Michel, Chubb, Jones, Penny, Freeman, Johnson. Rank'em any way you want, but there haven't bee more than 8 RB's taken in the first 3 rounds in the last 10 years.

So now you're in the 4th. Next I would predict Adams (Size & Production), Scarborough (Size & Combine) Ballage (Size & Combine, even though he's 10 ply), Hines (40 time) all go ahead of Walton.

So of the 12 RB's I've listed, which 3 are you knocking out to get Walton in the Top 10? Anyone else you'd put in your Top 10 that I didn't have in my Top 12?

I personally put Samuels (probably more of a FB/HB) & Edmonds solidly ahead of Walton, but don't think that's a given.

So now I'm at 12 - 14 RB's off the board (I personally have 14), and there's about 20 RB's drafted usually, so let's just say between 8-10 spots left.

I think Walton is now in a pool of 3rd down RB's - guys like Walton, Wadley, Roc Thomas, Jackson, Wilson, Kelly. How those guys are ranked on draft boards probably differs wildly team to team. All have question marks about them. Pro Days are still probably going to play a big role for these guys.

And those are just the combine guys, and not including big backs like Nall, Warren, Franklin, Williams There's other small guys who are ranked as Top 20 type guys on some boards like Martez Carter & Ito Smith. And some names will pop out of nowhere as workout wonders at their Pro Days.

So there's still a lot of shuffling for those last 10 spots still left to play out.
 
bruh, ignore stats. look at ALL the measurments between the two, and their combine results.

Not every comparison is a perfect match. Walton and Duke are a great comparison in the TYPE of RB they are. They are not statistically comparable in any way except they both are the type that in the nfl will be starting 3rd down backs and have to work their way up to being THE GUY. We are seeing that with Duke. And with Waltons blocking and catching ability, we will see that with him too. one advantage Walton also has is he legit could be a pro bowl special teams type player as a gunner. Like I've said Walton is a 4th rounder. Duke even as a 3rd rounder is way more skilled than he was.

Hate to tell you this, but comparing combine measurements is the definition of using stats.
 
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