what was up with this defensive pre-snap alignment?

[FullyERicht]

This is the result of the fact that if they show nickel, it is telegraphing to the opposing OC they are in man2man. So they can't really do it. Instead they have to have LBs covering. The second issue is for some reason we refuse to play Cover-1, which would have had one of the safeties cover the TE where Green is, and Green rushing from the LOS, or showing rush and dropping into a zone.

Of course the other thing is b/c this is a run play we don't really know what the call was. They could have showed this man-2 look and dropped into cover-3 with the OLBs Covering the flats, and one of the safeties taking a middle zone with the other two backers (though that would be foolish on a 2nd and 5). They could have played straight up Cover-2 and zone blitzed the WILL. Or they could have simply played man 2 knowing that there was safety help. It is very common for a SOLB in a 3-4 to cover a TE. Smart OC's, knowing this, simply align them outside, and while this doesn't change the nature of the SOLB's role in covering, it changes how many defenders are in the box, and opens up the run.

The real issue isn't that Green is covering. It's not uncommon to ask this of your OLBs. It's that the defense is predicated on so many moving parts, and that they don't trust a single high safety ever, and a DL that is playing a 2-gap front they can't handle, that there are constant breakdowns.

 

[LuCane]

This is the result of the fact that if they show nickel, it is telegraphing to the opposing OC they are in man2man. So they can't really do it. Instead they have to have LBs covering. The second issue is for some reason we refuse to play Cover-1, which would have had one of the safeties cover the TE where Green is, and Green rushing from the LOS, or showing rush and dropping into a zone.

Of course the other thing is b/c this is a run play we don't really know what the call was. They could have showed this man-2 look and dropped into cover-3 with the OLBs Covering the flats, and one of the safeties taking a middle zone with the other two backers (though that would be foolish on a 2nd and 5). They could have played straight up Cover-2 and zone blitzed the WILL. Or they could have simply played man 2 knowing that there was safety help. It is very common for a SOLB in a 3-4 to cover a TE. Smart OC's, knowing this, simply align them outside, and while this doesn't change the nature of the SOLB's role in covering, it changes how many defenders are in the box, and opens up the run.

The real issue isn't that Green is covering. It's not uncommon to ask this of your OLBs. It's that the defense is predicated on so many moving parts, and that they don't trust a single high safety ever, and a DL that is playing a 2-gap front they can't handle, that there are constant breakdowns.

They've trusted single high in the past. It just also flops. The common denominator between each call that flops is that, more often than not, it's seemingly telegraphed either by personnel package, alignment or the offense will simply motion a WR/TE. Underlying all of this is the basic notion that everything starts with your front. And, we have chosen to play a style with that front that they cannot execute, as you mentioned.

What irks me is that - I'm not sure if people noticed because it wasn't discussed much - did you see a couple instances where we asked our DL to "just go?" (Or, in the alternative, they did whatever the **** they wanted and refused to play the contain 2-gap) Now, I'll note that it was a special game scenario that made more sense to attack gaps. Nevertheless, we got at least a look at what some DL are capable of athletically instead of looking like pylons.

Late in the game, Luther Robinson blows by his OL with a swim move and causes a holding call. A play later, Chickillo shoots a gap and gets pressure. Reading the game day thread later, I see people wrote "hey, Chick got pressure" and "whadya know, Chick looks like he got a burst of speed."

Chick may not be a future NFL star, but he is not as bad as he often looks playing contain and gap control. I bet Luther Robinson and Pierre would look better, too. Of course, there are cons to playing a more aggressive DL style and then we have to decide what we'd do behind it, but all of it adds up to a bunch of problems that make deficient talent look like they don't know how to play football. I really have begun to tell myself that they'll adjust this in the off-season.

 

[nystateofmind]

What irks me is that - I'm not sure if people noticed because it wasn't discussed much - did you see a couple instances where we asked our DL to "just go?" (Or, in the alternative, they did whatever the **** they wanted and refused to play the contain 2-gap) Now, I'll note that it was a special game scenario that made more sense to attack gaps. Nevertheless, we got at least a look at what some DL are capable of athletically instead of looking like pylons.

Late in the game, Luther Robinson blows by his OL with a swim move and causes a holding call. A play later, Chickillo shoots a gap and gets pressure. Reading the game day thread later, I see people wrote "hey, Chick got pressure" and "whadya know, Chick looks like he got a burst of speed."

Chick may not be a future NFL star, but he is not as bad as he often looks playing contain and gap control. I bet Luther Robinson and Pierre would look better, too. Of course, there are cons to playing a more aggressive DL style and then we have to decide what we'd do behind it, but all of it adds up to a bunch of problems that make deficient talent look like they don't know how to play football. I really have begun to tell myself that they'll adjust this in the off-season.

What do you think it was? The call or the players acted on their own? And if it's the latter, does it have any effect on how we play from now on?

 

[LuCane]

What irks me is that - I'm not sure if people noticed because it wasn't discussed much - did you see a couple instances where we asked our DL to "just go?" (Or, in the alternative, they did whatever the **** they wanted and refused to play the contain 2-gap) Now, I'll note that it was a special game scenario that made more sense to attack gaps. Nevertheless, we got at least a look at what some DL are capable of athletically instead of looking like pylons.

Late in the game, Luther Robinson blows by his OL with a swim move and causes a holding call. A play later, Chickillo shoots a gap and gets pressure. Reading the game day thread later, I see people wrote "hey, Chick got pressure" and "whadya know, Chick looks like he got a burst of speed."

Chick may not be a future NFL star, but he is not as bad as he often looks playing contain and gap control. I bet Luther Robinson and Pierre would look better, too. Of course, there are cons to playing a more aggressive DL style and then we have to decide what we'd do behind it, but all of it adds up to a bunch of problems that make deficient talent look like they don't know how to play football. I really have begun to tell myself that they'll adjust this in the off-season.

What do you think it was? The call or the players acted on their own? And if it's the latter, does it have any effect on how we play from now on?

I think it was the call, but I am completely guessing, obviously. It seemed to fit the game scenario. End of the game and they didn't have to think about anything other than pressuring the QB. No, I think it was a narrow instance and I think they believe that we can, through development, getting older and getting better talent, ultimately implement a bigger portion of their defense. As GoldenShowers outlined last week, the foundation of that is a DL that plays a lot of contain.

 

[nystateofmind]

Ugh, I hate that 2 Gap stuff though!

I want a line that has one goal: Get to the QB or the runner.

 

[DiegoCane]

This is the result of the fact that if they show nickel, it is telegraphing to the opposing OC they are in man2man. So they can't really do it. Instead they have to have LBs covering. The second issue is for some reason we refuse to play Cover-1, which would have had one of the safeties cover the TE where Green is, and Green rushing from the LOS, or showing rush and dropping into a zone.

Of course the other thing is b/c this is a run play we don't really know what the call was. They could have showed this man-2 look and dropped into cover-3 with the OLBs Covering the flats, and one of the safeties taking a middle zone with the other two backers (though that would be foolish on a 2nd and 5). They could have played straight up Cover-2 and zone blitzed the WILL. Or they could have simply played man 2 knowing that there was safety help. It is very common for a SOLB in a 3-4 to cover a TE. Smart OC's, knowing this, simply align them outside, and while this doesn't change the nature of the SOLB's role in covering, it changes how many defenders are in the box, and opens up the run.

The real issue isn't that Green is covering. It's not uncommon to ask this of your OLBs. It's that the defense is predicated on so many moving parts, and that they don't trust a single high safety ever, and a DL that is playing a 2-gap front they can't handle, that there are constant breakdowns.

They've trusted single high in the past. It just also flops. The common denominator between each call that flops is that, more often than not, it's seemingly telegraphed either by personnel package, alignment or the offense will simply motion a WR/TE. Underlying all of this is the basic notion that everything starts with your front. And, we have chosen to play a style with that front that they cannot execute, as you mentioned.

What irks me is that - I'm not sure if people noticed because it wasn't discussed much - did you see a couple instances where we asked our DL to "just go?" (Or, in the alternative, they did whatever the **** they wanted and refused to play the contain 2-gap) Now, I'll note that it was a special game scenario that made more sense to attack gaps. Nevertheless, we got at least a look at what some DL are capable of athletically instead of looking like pylons.

Late in the game, Luther Robinson blows by his OL with a swim move and causes a holding call. A play later, Chickillo shoots a gap and gets pressure. Reading the game day thread later, I see people wrote "hey, Chick got pressure" and "whadya know, Chick looks like he got a burst of speed."

Chick may not be a future NFL star, but he is not as bad as he often looks playing contain and gap control. I bet Luther Robinson and Pierre would look better, too. Of course, there are cons to playing a more aggressive DL style and then we have to decide what we'd do behind it, but all of it adds up to a bunch of problems that make deficient talent look like they don't know how to play football. I really have begun to tell myself that they'll adjust this in the off-season.

It has to be frustrating for guys like Chick, I really believe that. Chick is asked to do something that plays to a weakness. We do that with a lot of guys on our defense.

Every week I keep thinking we will see a more attacking style, every week I'm disappointed. Playing 2 gap with this collection of players is a mistake IMO, plain and simple.

 

[fivecent]

This is the result of the fact that if they show nickel, it is telegraphing to the opposing OC they are in man2man. So they can't really do it. Instead they have to have LBs covering. The second issue is for some reason we refuse to play Cover-1, which would have had one of the safeties cover the TE where Green is, and Green rushing from the LOS, or showing rush and dropping into a zone.

Of course the other thing is b/c this is a run play we don't really know what the call was. They could have showed this man-2 look and dropped into cover-3 with the OLBs Covering the flats, and one of the safeties taking a middle zone with the other two backers (though that would be foolish on a 2nd and 5). They could have played straight up Cover-2 and zone blitzed the WILL. Or they could have simply played man 2 knowing that there was safety help. It is very common for a SOLB in a 3-4 to cover a TE. Smart OC's, knowing this, simply align them outside, and while this doesn't change the nature of the SOLB's role in covering, it changes how many defenders are in the box, and opens up the run.

The real issue isn't that Green is covering. It's not uncommon to ask this of your OLBs. It's that the defense is predicated on so many moving parts, and that they don't trust a single high safety ever, and a DL that is playing a 2-gap front they can't handle, that there are constant breakdowns.

I know very little about the technical side, but is Green athletic enough to be doing that? Because if he isn't, I think that's the real issue, asking your players to run something that they are not well suited for.

 

[DeadPoets]

This is the result of the fact that if they show nickel, it is telegraphing to the opposing OC they are in man2man. So they can't really do it. Instead they have to have LBs covering. The second issue is for some reason we refuse to play Cover-1, which would have had one of the safeties cover the TE where Green is, and Green rushing from the LOS, or showing rush and dropping into a zone.

Of course the other thing is b/c this is a run play we don't really know what the call was. They could have showed this man-2 look and dropped into cover-3 with the OLBs Covering the flats, and one of the safeties taking a middle zone with the other two backers (though that would be foolish on a 2nd and 5). They could have played straight up Cover-2 and zone blitzed the WILL. Or they could have simply played man 2 knowing that there was safety help. It is very common for a SOLB in a 3-4 to cover a TE. Smart OC's, knowing this, simply align them outside, and while this doesn't change the nature of the SOLB's role in covering, it changes how many defenders are in the box, and opens up the run.

The real issue isn't that Green is covering. It's not uncommon to ask this of your OLBs. It's that the defense is predicated on so many moving parts, and that they don't trust a single high safety ever, and a DL that is playing a 2-gap front they can't handle, that there are constant breakdowns.

I know very little about the technical side, but is Green athletic enough to be doing that? Because if he isn't, I think that's the real issue, asking your players to run something that they are not well suited for.

What goldenshowers said. Should've been cover 1 call.

 

[BlackKeysFan]

This is just stupid. And its been going on all fuggin year.

No defending anything that has happened this year. No pressure on QB's, no run stop, theres just nothing to be said anymore. Dude needs to get canned immediately after the Pitt game so we can get a jump on the new hire and recruiting. I can't take it anymore

 

[Tano]

This is the result of the fact that if they show nickel, it is telegraphing to the opposing OC they are in man2man. So they can't really do it. Instead they have to have LBs covering. The second issue is for some reason we refuse to play Cover-1, which would have had one of the safeties cover the TE where Green is, and Green rushing from the LOS, or showing rush and dropping into a zone.

Of course the other thing is b/c this is a run play we don't really know what the call was. They could have showed this man-2 look and dropped into cover-3 with the OLBs Covering the flats, and one of the safeties taking a middle zone with the other two backers (though that would be foolish on a 2nd and 5). They could have played straight up Cover-2 and zone blitzed the WILL. Or they could have simply played man 2 knowing that there was safety help. It is very common for a SOLB in a 3-4 to cover a TE. Smart OC's, knowing this, simply align them outside, and while this doesn't change the nature of the SOLB's role in covering, it changes how many defenders are in the box, and opens up the run.

The real issue isn't that Green is covering. It's not uncommon to ask this of your OLBs. It's that the defense is predicated on so many moving parts, and that they don't trust a single high safety ever, and a DL that is playing a 2-gap front they can't handle, that there are constant breakdowns.

They've trusted single high in the past. It just also flops. The common denominator between each call that flops is that, more often than not, it's seemingly telegraphed either by personnel package, alignment or the offense will simply motion a WR/TE. Underlying all of this is the basic notion that everything starts with your front. And, we have chosen to play a style with that front that they cannot execute, as you mentioned.

What irks me is that - I'm not sure if people noticed because it wasn't discussed much - did you see a couple instances where we asked our DL to "just go?" (Or, in the alternative, they did whatever the **** they wanted and refused to play the contain 2-gap) Now, I'll note that it was a special game scenario that made more sense to attack gaps. Nevertheless, we got at least a look at what some DL are capable of athletically instead of looking like pylons.

Late in the game, Luther Robinson blows by his OL with a swim move and causes a holding call. A play later, Chickillo shoots a gap and gets pressure. Reading the game day thread later, I see people wrote "hey, Chick got pressure" and "whadya know, Chick looks like he got a burst of speed."

Chick may not be a future NFL star, but he is not as bad as he often looks playing contain and gap control. I bet Luther Robinson and Pierre would look better, too. Of course, there are cons to playing a more aggressive DL style and then we have to decide what we'd do behind it, but all of it adds up to a bunch of problems that make deficient talent look like they don't know how to play football. I really have begun to tell myself that they'll adjust this in the off-season.

This this this a million times this. I was talking about this with Alexcane seemingly the entire game.

 

[Canecling]

solid response LU -- thank you for making this so obvious

 

[ucrew02]

Another thing going unmentioned here is that if we're in a cover 3, Green may have flat or hook responsibility out there anyway. It's simply aligned differently to protect against the screen which has killed us. Just because he's aligned head up, doesn't necessarily mean he's in man. We don't do much in the way of disguising coverage but this could be that.

I want a new DC,for the record, so easy on the responses. I want him gone for a myriad of things but I'm not going to crucify the guy over something trivial which may or may not have worked (don't remember the result of either play).

Edit: After looking at the DBs, it doesn't look like that's the case at all hahah Looks like man. Nevermind

 

[Notsince1985]

So, for those who say it's not about scheme, defend Green lining up 5 yards from the sideline covering a TE, and Gilbert covering a TE. That should NEVER happen. Opposing OCs don't have to create mismatches, Coach D does it for them.

Green and Gilbert are essentially OLBs. Has either one put their hand in the dirt at any point this season?

An OLB can't cover a TE if he flexes out wide?


The defense is obviously having serious problems, but people are complaining about things that happen all over the country.

Shayon Green is not an OLB. Dude has had 19 knee surgeries. That he's being played as one is a bigger indictment of the coaches. He can barely move. He's a DE, and not even athletic enough to be a DE. As for Gilbert, he's also a DE. If they play him as an OLB in this scheme, that's also a joke considering the Wisconsin doctors didn't clear him to play and he "retired" from football because his foot. Yeah, these guys should be covering anyone. Give me a break. It happens all over the country? Maybe with real OLB. You act like this is a legit OLB, not a DE playing OLB, and 2 who can barely move at that. Also, it's not like they're Cameron Wake or Dion Jordan type DE's either.

Nice try with the, "This happens all over the country" crap. Name one other defensive coach who asks someone like Green, a 6th year guy with knees as bad as my 92 year old Grandma, or Gilbert, whose foot fell off last year, to cover guys. Get out of here with that BS.

Again, it's fine for OLB/DE to cover a TE if their name is Cam Wake, Dion Jordan or Jason Taylor, circa 1999, but Shayon Green. STFU. He can barely walk.

 

[drifters1234]

We're being "multiple."

 

[TwoZero]

So, for those who say it's not about scheme, defend Green lining up 5 yards from the sideline covering a TE, and Gilbert covering a TE. That should NEVER happen. Opposing OCs don't have to create mismatches, Coach D does it for them.

Green and Gilbert are essentially OLBs. Has either one put their hand in the dirt at any point this season?

An OLB can't cover a TE if he flexes out wide?


The defense is obviously having serious problems, but people are complaining about things that happen all over the country.

Shayon Green is not an OLB. Dude has had 19 knee surgeries. That he's being played as one is a bigger indictment of the coaches. He can barely move. He's a DE, and not even athletic enough to be a DE. As for Gilbert, he's also a DE. If they play him as an OLB in this scheme, that's also a joke considering the Wisconsin doctors didn't clear him to play and he "retired" from football because his foot. Yeah, these guys should be covering anyone. Give me a break. It happens all over the country? Maybe with real OLB. You act like this is a legit OLB, not a DE playing OLB, and 2 who can barely move at that. Also, it's not like they're Cameron Wake or Dion Jordan type DE's either.

Nice try with the, "This happens all over the country" crap. Name one other defensive coach who asks someone like Green, a 6th year guy with knees as bad as my 92 year old Grandma, or Gilbert, whose foot fell off last year, to cover guys. Get out of here with that BS.

i gotta go with this. Green isn't the guy to throw all the way out wide. i can live with Tyriq being out there if the motion sends him out. but Green?

 

[HurricaneU]

I guess I don't see anything terribly shocking or out of the ordinary in the picture considering the context of down and distance. Green isn't the best option obviously but he is stout against the run. Shifting the TE wide was smart on Virginia's part.

 

[whoopingcane]

Someone needs to make a composite video of the DL getting pushed off the ball over and over, where the opposing OL are acting as leads in couples ballroom dancing.

Maybe have Swan Lake playing in the background.

Then get the ****head Brit on Dancing with the Stars to give them a standing ovation and 10/10 score.

 

[Coach Macho]

anyone know why we had Shayon Green line up as a CB for two plays in a row?

saw someone mention this on twitter. i rewatched the game looking for it and found it.

let me know if the pic isn't visible, i tried uploading to TinyPic but the site always gives me problems.

Jesus. SMH

So who's supposed to be the C-gap player if Shayon is all the way outside the numbers?

You can throw the bubble up top or hand the ball of to the RB for an easy gain around the edge.

We're out-numbered in the box, as usual.

Why not go Cover-3 and put Shayon back in the box? Why must we insist on playing Cover-2 on 2nd & short? (and while we're getting pounded on the ground)

Send Shayon off the edge. There's your C-gap player to hold the edge. Roll the Safety down to replace Shayon and cover the flats. Or vice versa, blitz the OLB at the top and replace him with the other Safety. That's the good thing about the 3-4, it's symmetrical.

 

[Bigtip]

LMAO at Dorito

this. ******* hilarious at this point. Shayon out in space is just unreal

 

[supacane]

You can explain away all you want, i don't remember what they called on that play ill check later. But if am a qb......and I never played football btw. I'd call a run play to the top side all day long. At least 5-10 yards easy. Broken tackle and its a huge gain. We are defeated pre snap