Sean Spence weighs in on the Defense...interesting read

[LuCane]

So the argument that coaching is not a problem here, is to point out how all the lowly ranked recruits go to other schools and make plays, while our highly rated kids come in and disappear.

Am I getting this right?

lol yup

:ibisroflmao:

slkfsdlkfsdlkfslkfj

might as well lock the thread

My job here is done. This **** is absurd. I'll take more negs for it.

Wanting to use our talent better than Duke uses their other-wordly Safety (non-front 7 player), Navy, NC Central and Memphis is apparently a "30 for 30" mentality.

 

[DeadPoets]

It's easy to point out those players on other teams now - they're getting superior coaching and are being developed. It's an indictment on our staff that these garbage *** kids are making plays in other defenses.

Go back to these kids coming out of high school, before Dorito got his grubby paws on them and coached them straight into the ground.


Martin Ifedi only other offer was New Mexico St.

Marcus Whitfeld was the 90th best player at his position, and was down to Maryland and WVU.

Nikita Whitlock held one other offer - SMU. He was a low 2 star.

Jeremy Cash was a 3 star and 25th ranked guy at his position.


Yet we're allowing 500 yards to offenses ranked in the 100s with these kids:

Anthony Chikillo - 3rd rated DE, 4 star, UF, Bama, FSU, Auburn, Clemson, Michigan, ND, South Carolina offers.
Curtis Porter - Offers from Clemson, Florida, Florida State, Michigan
Denzel Perryman - Offers from Auburn, UF, FSU, South Carolina
Tracy Howard - 5 star, #1 at his position. Kid could have named his school
Deon Bush - 4th best safety in the nation, 4 star, also could have named his school. BAMA was all over him
Tyriq McCord - 7th best at his position, 4 star, Goergia, South Carolina, ND, USC, UF, FSU all on his ****
Raphael Kirby - 5th best at his position, 4 star, Offer list looked like a ****ing medieval scroll, Could have played anywhere
Luther Robinson - 4 star and 18th at his position in the country.


So, we can't get any of these kids to make plays, yet these nobodies are carrying defenses. And that's not coaching? You don't think Memphis, Maryland, Wake, and Duke would switch players with us on every signing day? You're only proving that even with superior incoming talent, the staff can't get these kids to stop offenses ranked in the 100s from destroying them.

When do we have enough talent to not get annihilated by awful offenses? Does this staff need the #1 ranked player at every position? Will that be enough?

I have already made this point 100 times, its talent and coaching.

Jimmy Johnson's 29-25-3 at Oklahoma St goes to Miami gets players like Jerome Brown, Michael Irvin, etc.. Wins a title. Goes to Cowboys, goes 1-15, gets Aikman, Smith, Irvin, Maryland etc wins 2 super bowls, goes to Miami never does better than 10-6. Is he a good coach or not? He didnt win at Oklahoma St. but he won at Miami. He didnt win with the Dolphins but he won with Dallas.
Bill Belichick was 36-44 with the Browns, he wins 3 Super Bowls with the Patriots with guys like Brady, Bruschi, Wilfork etc.
Pete Carroll fired by the Jets and Patriots goes to USC wins a title with players like Bush, Palmer, Palamalu etc..Goes to Seattle and makes 200 rosters moves in one season to shape his team. Goes 11-5.
Nick Saban at Michigan St. From 1995 to 1997, Michigan State finished 6–5–1, 6–6, 7–5, 6-6, then 9-2(finally has his recruits). In comparison, MSU had finished 5–6, 6–6 and 5–6 in 1992–1994. Goes to LSU goes 8-4, 10-3, 8-5, 11-1(title), then 9-3 again. Goes to Dolphins and goes 15-17. Then Bama and 3 titles.

These are some of the best coaches of all time and still needed GREAT players to win Championships.

I don't think most people here are calling for Golden's head.

By the way... it'd be interesting to note any firings those college coaches had to make during their turnarounds.

 

[LuCane]

We were a 4-3 in 2011 and is now a 3-4 so spence and futch didn't play in this D.

They never said they did play in this D. And Winston, Blades, and Starks didn't either. Chizik sure as **** didn't. All of these guys are just giving opinions, but at least Spence and Futch have played for the man.

If that were the view being espoused on this thread, I'd say that's fair and reasonable. Not amazingly helpful because the topic is scheme, but fair and reasonable.

I responded to a specific post. The rest of you clowns can just keep on with your back and forth about scheme or talent.

Not sure I called you a clown or really addressed you at all. I was actually agreeing with your post, so that's funny.

And, no one is saying scheme or talent. Almost everyone is saying scheme and talent. We're going back and forth on the fact some are adamant we have almost literally NO TALENT.

 

[M3N]

I'm blaming the commanding general...not his lieutenants

Swasey doesn't work for Golden. He reports directly to Blake James because he runs s&c for all sports not just football

And Swasey is the common trend. Unqualified and severely incompetent.

 

[QuadCityCane]

Apparently, now we need a squad of NFL players to perform up to the level of Navy and North Carolina Central. Thank you for proving that we have problems.

You're right. Our reality seems to be a ****.

By your argument maybe we should fire Coley too cause Troy scored more points on Duke then we did. Do they have better players than Duke, Morris, Coley, our line? Do you know how ridiculous that sounds?
Fact is we played bad and lost.

Every single team on Duke's schedule performed better defensively than we did. That's not an outlier. Do you know how ridiculous of an argument it is to find outliers like you're trying to do? To mention random guys from separate teams? To mention front 7 and then name a Safety?

You really can't just acknowledge that we may have some talent issues, but we also have some coaching issues?

You obviously dont read my posts. We have coaching issues, I have said that 100 times. Talent on defense is a major problem and I dont care who you bring in we wont be better than average until we have better talent. Just like Jimmy, Bill B, Saban, and Carroll from my post above couldnt win without talent.

I read your posts pretty clearly. I read the post where you push the agenda that NONE of our front 7 players, except Perryman, would play at a bunch of ****ty schools. I'm not asking for the talent to perform up to Championship level. I'd like for them to perform better than Navy and NC Central. I guess that's my crazy 30 for 30 mentality.

Push what agenda, that my opinion is I dont care where they go and play they wouldnt be better than average? Because I think good players will make plays no matter what system? If no one in our front 7 can rush the passer, why would that be any different on another team. If Jimmy Gaines is too slow to have more than 1 tackle for loss at one of the most important positions in a 3-4 vs the run, why would he be any faster on another team? If TC stands around and watches plays or misses tackles, why would I think that wouldnt happen anywhere else.

My problem with the coaches is these players shouldnt be playing. But they have some sort of infatuation with owing it to the seniors for buying into the program and sticking it out.

 

[The Franchise]

We've entered into a new realm:

Apparently, people in this thread are claiming that, out of our front 7, only Perryman would play at places like Maryland, Wake, Duke, Troy, Memphis and North Carolina Central.

I officially concede. You guys have convinced me. Thank you.

Not only that, but some clown opined that AQM would be redshirting at programs like NC Central, Troy and Navy. LULZ. He'd be the best player on any of those teams. None of those teams have ever signed a guy with his resume'.

 

[QuadCityCane]

It's easy to point out those players on other teams now - they're getting superior coaching and are being developed. It's an indictment on our staff that these garbage *** kids are making plays in other defenses.

Go back to these kids coming out of high school, before Dorito got his grubby paws on them and coached them straight into the ground.


Martin Ifedi only other offer was New Mexico St.

Marcus Whitfeld was the 90th best player at his position, and was down to Maryland and WVU.

Nikita Whitlock held one other offer - SMU. He was a low 2 star.

Jeremy Cash was a 3 star and 25th ranked guy at his position.


Yet we're allowing 500 yards to offenses ranked in the 100s with these kids:

Anthony Chikillo - 3rd rated DE, 4 star, UF, Bama, FSU, Auburn, Clemson, Michigan, ND, South Carolina offers.
Curtis Porter - Offers from Clemson, Florida, Florida State, Michigan
Denzel Perryman - Offers from Auburn, UF, FSU, South Carolina
Tracy Howard - 5 star, #1 at his position. Kid could have named his school
Deon Bush - 4th best safety in the nation, 4 star, also could have named his school. BAMA was all over him
Tyriq McCord - 7th best at his position, 4 star, Goergia, South Carolina, ND, USC, UF, FSU all on his ****
Raphael Kirby - 5th best at his position, 4 star, Offer list looked like a ****ing medieval scroll, Could have played anywhere
Luther Robinson - 4 star and 18th at his position in the country.


So, we can't get any of these kids to make plays, yet these nobodies are carrying defenses. And that's not coaching? You don't think Memphis, Maryland, Wake, and Duke would switch players with us on every signing day? You're only proving that even with superior incoming talent, the staff can't get these kids to stop offenses ranked in the 100s from destroying them.

When do we have enough talent to not get annihilated by awful offenses? Does this staff need the #1 ranked player at every position? Will that be enough?

I have already made this point 100 times, its talent and coaching.

Jimmy Johnson's 29-25-3 at Oklahoma St goes to Miami gets players like Jerome Brown, Michael Irvin, etc.. Wins a title. Goes to Cowboys, goes 1-15, gets Aikman, Smith, Irvin, Maryland etc wins 2 super bowls, goes to Miami never does better than 10-6. Is he a good coach or not? He didnt win at Oklahoma St. but he won at Miami. He didnt win with the Dolphins but he won with Dallas.
Bill Belichick was 36-44 with the Browns, he wins 3 Super Bowls with the Patriots with guys like Brady, Bruschi, Wilfork etc.
Pete Carroll fired by the Jets and Patriots goes to USC wins a title with players like Bush, Palmer, Palamalu etc..Goes to Seattle and makes 200 rosters moves in one season to shape his team. Goes 11-5.
Nick Saban at Michigan St. From 1995 to 1997, Michigan State finished 6–5–1, 6–6, 7–5, 6-6, then 9-2(finally has his recruits). In comparison, MSU had finished 5–6, 6–6 and 5–6 in 1992–1994. Goes to LSU goes 8-4, 10-3, 8-5, 11-1(title), then 9-3 again. Goes to Dolphins and goes 15-17. Then Bama and 3 titles.

These are some of the best coaches of all time and still needed GREAT players to win Championships.

I don't think most people here are calling for Golden's head.

By the way... it'd be interesting to note any firings those college coaches had to make during their turnarounds.

Well some are but I just dismiss them. I just think some seriously over evaluate our talent. Do I really care what happens to Coach D? No I dont. Would I like to see maybe one more year for continuity? Maybe. Depends on the last 3 games.

 

[QuadCityCane]

We've entered into a new realm:

Apparently, people in this thread are claiming that, out of our front 7, only Perryman would play at places like Maryland, Wake, Duke, Troy, Memphis and North Carolina Central.

I officially concede. You guys have convinced me. Thank you.

Not only that, but some clown opined that AQM would be redshirting at programs like NC Central, Troy and Navy. LULZ. He'd be the best player on any of those teams. None of those teams have ever signed a guy with his resume'.

This is my biggest gripe. Mentally the players may be ahead of guys like Kirby, Carter, Figs, etc but they are physically limited also. I would rather see the young guys play to build for the future. I could at least live with their mistakes, I cant stomach seniors like AJ, Gaines, TC, etc making so many bad plays.

 

[LuCane]

By your argument maybe we should fire Coley too cause Troy scored more points on Duke then we did. Do they have better players than Duke, Morris, Coley, our line? Do you know how ridiculous that sounds?
Fact is we played bad and lost.

Every single team on Duke's schedule performed better defensively than we did. That's not an outlier. Do you know how ridiculous of an argument it is to find outliers like you're trying to do? To mention random guys from separate teams? To mention front 7 and then name a Safety?

You really can't just acknowledge that we may have some talent issues, but we also have some coaching issues?

You obviously dont read my posts. We have coaching issues, I have said that 100 times. Talent on defense is a major problem and I dont care who you bring in we wont be better than average until we have better talent. Just like Jimmy, Bill B, Saban, and Carroll from my post above couldnt win without talent.

I read your posts pretty clearly. I read the post where you push the agenda that NONE of our front 7 players, except Perryman, would play at a bunch of ****ty schools. I'm not asking for the talent to perform up to Championship level. I'd like for them to perform better than Navy and NC Central. I guess that's my crazy 30 for 30 mentality.

Push what agenda, that my opinion is I dont care where they go and play they wouldnt be better than average? Because I think good players will make plays no matter what system? If no one in our front 7 can rush the passer, why would that be any different on another team. If Jimmy Gaines is too slow to have more than 1 tackle for loss at one of the most important positions in a 3-4 vs the run, why would he be any faster on another team? If TC stands around and watches plays or misses tackles, why would I think that wouldnt happen anywhere else.

My problem with the coaches is these players shouldnt be playing. But they have some sort of infatuation with owing it to the seniors for buying into the program and sticking it out.

The bolded simply indicates you don't understand what we are asking some of our players to do. The fact you can't seem to accept some of the guys you mentioned would get destroyed here (e.g. Nikita) playing 2-gap, is basically the point.

I think many of our players are talented enough to produce to the level of guys at Wake, Duke, Navy, NC Central, etc. You apparently do not. We're not going to find common ground here.

 

[sebastian91]

Every game is different. There are far too many variables that affect a game to just start comparing performances of teams against each other relative to talent, scheme, recruiting, or anything else. Frankly, it's a really dumb argument. Our defense sucks, we need better players, and we need the coaches to do a better job with what they have. Anything else is just noise, and it's disappointing, IMO, to see a Mod for this site engaging in (and antagonizing, really) this kind of noise.

 

[Canes2082]

Truth is we dont have the horses yet.... However they are coming. We have a great defensive class coming in and its something we havent had in a long time.

And most of them won't be able to play for another year or two.

Thats called building depth something we have greatly needed! Look at FSU, Bama... those teams have tons of depth. Eddie Goldman was the #1 DT 2 years ago and hes just now getting meaningful playing time. If he had signed with us we would have had to start him from Day 1

 

[nystateofmind]

Every game is different. There are far too many variables that affect a game to just start comparing performances of teams against each other relative to talent, scheme, recruiting, or anything else. Frankly, it's a really dumb argument. Our defense sucks, we need better players, and we need the coaches to do a better job with what they have. Anything else is just noise, and it's disappointing, IMO, to see a Mod for this site engaging in (and antagonizing, really) this kind of noise.

Lol, a Mod? He's the founder of the site.

 

[QuadCityCane]

Every single team on Duke's schedule performed better defensively than we did. That's not an outlier. Do you know how ridiculous of an argument it is to find outliers like you're trying to do? To mention random guys from separate teams? To mention front 7 and then name a Safety?

You really can't just acknowledge that we may have some talent issues, but we also have some coaching issues?

You obviously dont read my posts. We have coaching issues, I have said that 100 times. Talent on defense is a major problem and I dont care who you bring in we wont be better than average until we have better talent. Just like Jimmy, Bill B, Saban, and Carroll from my post above couldnt win without talent.

I read your posts pretty clearly. I read the post where you push the agenda that NONE of our front 7 players, except Perryman, would play at a bunch of ****ty schools. I'm not asking for the talent to perform up to Championship level. I'd like for them to perform better than Navy and NC Central. I guess that's my crazy 30 for 30 mentality.

Push what agenda, that my opinion is I dont care where they go and play they wouldnt be better than average? Because I think good players will make plays no matter what system? If no one in our front 7 can rush the passer, why would that be any different on another team. If Jimmy Gaines is too slow to have more than 1 tackle for loss at one of the most important positions in a 3-4 vs the run, why would he be any faster on another team? If TC stands around and watches plays or misses tackles, why would I think that wouldnt happen anywhere else.

My problem with the coaches is these players shouldnt be playing. But they have some sort of infatuation with owing it to the seniors for buying into the program and sticking it out.

The bolded simply indicates you don't understand what we are asking some of our players to do. The fact you can't seem to accept some of the guys you mentioned would get destroyed here (e.g. Nikita) playing 2-gap, is basically the point.

I think many of our players are talented enough to produce to the level of guys at Wake, Duke, Navy, NC Central, etc. You apparently do not. We're not going to find common ground here.

So why do we bring in guys like mccord and AQM on third downs to rush the passer? Because the players currently starting cannot do it. So why would they be able to do it anywhere else.

 

[zone3cane]

Jordan Futch wouldnt even start on this team so he has no point to make.... talking about talent and being slow GTFOH.

And i'm sorry Sean Spence is a smart football player but he's never been apart of an elite defense or even close to one at Miami.... 45th in total defense is far from special, and that's what u got under Dorito.

Bringing up the Steelers to suggest that its working up there b/c of talent and to try and use that as an example is ridiculous..... so Dorito needs NFL starting caliber defenders across the field so it can work effectively???

The coaches are the problem, players think D'onofrio knows so much and is so smart but where is the evidence on the field?.... there isnt a single year you can point to that would show a D'onofrio defense looking elite. Forget about elite, not even good PERIOD.

 

[sebastian91]

Every game is different. There are far too many variables that affect a game to just start comparing performances of teams against each other relative to talent, scheme, recruiting, or anything else. Frankly, it's a really dumb argument. Our defense sucks, we need better players, and we need the coaches to do a better job with what they have. Anything else is just noise, and it's disappointing, IMO, to see a Mod for this site engaging in (and antagonizing, really) this kind of noise.

Lol, a Mod? He's the founder of the site.

That's even worse then.

 

[zone3cane]

These con, coaches are so philosophical they got these former players thinking that a 45th ranked defense is something to stick yo chest out about







/ STANDARDS smh

 

[TP801]

Lol. Someone actually said Tyriq or AQM would redshirt at a dook, wake forest, nc cathedral, etc....... That's some dbc type ****. Matter of fact, that's sounds like dbcs ghost type **** AFTER he got attacked by the bear and had swine flu.

Diabeetus gut Golden and Diahrrea dorito slurpers out in full tonight.

 

[LuCane]

Every game is different. There are far too many variables that affect a game to just start comparing performances of teams against each other relative to talent, scheme, recruiting, or anything else. Frankly, it's a really dumb argument. Our defense sucks, we need better players, and we need the coaches to do a better job with what they have. Anything else is just noise, and it's disappointing, IMO, to see a Mod for this site engaging in (and antagonizing, really) this kind of noise.

What ridiculous commentary. What would be disappointing is if I personally attacked posters instead of posts. You know, like trying to be the sensible, above-the-fray guy, yet calling people clowns. Frankly, seems hilariously ironic.

It's not noise to discuss serious flaws and underperformance relative to schools to whom we are at least on par with talent-wise. It's noise to you because apparently you don't want to hear it. There are plenty of other discussions that go on throughout this board. Substantive ones. Add to those, if you wish.

 

[LuCane]

Every game is different. There are far too many variables that affect a game to just start comparing performances of teams against each other relative to talent, scheme, recruiting, or anything else. Frankly, it's a really dumb argument. Our defense sucks, we need better players, and we need the coaches to do a better job with what they have. Anything else is just noise, and it's disappointing, IMO, to see a Mod for this site engaging in (and antagonizing, really) this kind of noise.

Lol, a Mod? He's the founder of the site.

That's even worse then.

I responded to your post directly. Hilariously ironic that your sensibilities are offended for discussion you interpret as noise, but go on to call people clowns.

You are welcome to stick around and add substance to the board. I looked forward to it.

 

[LuCane]

You obviously dont read my posts. We have coaching issues, I have said that 100 times. Talent on defense is a major problem and I dont care who you bring in we wont be better than average until we have better talent. Just like Jimmy, Bill B, Saban, and Carroll from my post above couldnt win without talent.

I read your posts pretty clearly. I read the post where you push the agenda that NONE of our front 7 players, except Perryman, would play at a bunch of ****ty schools. I'm not asking for the talent to perform up to Championship level. I'd like for them to perform better than Navy and NC Central. I guess that's my crazy 30 for 30 mentality.

Push what agenda, that my opinion is I dont care where they go and play they wouldnt be better than average? Because I think good players will make plays no matter what system? If no one in our front 7 can rush the passer, why would that be any different on another team. If Jimmy Gaines is too slow to have more than 1 tackle for loss at one of the most important positions in a 3-4 vs the run, why would he be any faster on another team? If TC stands around and watches plays or misses tackles, why would I think that wouldnt happen anywhere else.

My problem with the coaches is these players shouldnt be playing. But they have some sort of infatuation with owing it to the seniors for buying into the program and sticking it out.

The bolded simply indicates you don't understand what we are asking some of our players to do. The fact you can't seem to accept some of the guys you mentioned would get destroyed here (e.g. Nikita) playing 2-gap, is basically the point.

I think many of our players are talented enough to produce to the level of guys at Wake, Duke, Navy, NC Central, etc. You apparently do not. We're not going to find common ground here.

So why do we bring in guys like mccord and AQM on third downs to rush the passer? Because the players currently starting cannot do it. So why would they be able to do it anywhere else.

Do you understand the difference between what our 3rd down package does versus what we ask our DL to do on earlier downs? I'm genuinely asking, as your post indicates, once again, that you do not.