Paradise

[CashMoneyCane]

BS. its goes after only the people they want to, an axes to grind or a political agenda. if it really went after true cheaters, al Sharpton would have been in jail long time ago.

OK bud, you keep thinking that, and don't pay your taxes, and see how that works out for you.

To educate you (because it's pretty obvious you're in need of it), the IRS taking on a tax fraud case is a value proposition. How likely will they be to collect/convict, and what amount, relative to the resources they spend. The very wealthy can get away with most forms of tax evasion, by and large because they have better lawyers than the IRS. And then they have the money to actually fight the federal government. Which most of us do not.

So going back to this example, who's more likely to get away with the issue at hand? A rich (probably white), well connected, probably educated older man? Or a probably poor, probably black, probably not all-that-well connected or educated young man?

And not that I'm a fan of Sharpton, at all, but maybe take your political "insight" elsewhere?

 

[CashMoneyCane]

I wonder what the laws are if you gift to a church? Back a few years ago I was on vacation at a resort in Antigua. Got talking to a BAMA homer. He started spilling some info about how really a complex web it is that BAMA boosters have with the key being a number of churches involved to clean the money and get it to the recruits.

I'm not really a tax guy, but spent a while in private banking (at one of the really big ones) on the investments side, which means you take on some tax planning issues. Not to necessarily say this would work in a "bagman" scenario, but there are more ways to pass money tax free than there are excuses from Gator fans for why they're so awful.

The notion of boosters passing gifts through churches makes a lot of sense. Lots of cash donations to churches, so it's hard to track. And then once they're established, I doubt they're really scrutinized by the IRS.

Sounds smart to me. So I doubt Bama is doing it, but maybe like Vanderbilt or something.

 

[CashMoneyCane]

man i wonder how we get anyone when everyone pays and we dont......

Because kids not taking the money is the norm. We only hear about it for a few, select guys, relative to the entire recruiting class across the nation.

It happens, but it's not like every player is getting paid. And even for the guys who are worth the bag, some of them are actually decent human beings, with good parents, who see how stupid it is to take a bag to go to a school.

We've all heard over the years that plenty of our players have gotten the offer. You think Saban wouldn't have been happy to buy Ahmmon Richards a new Benz?

 

[CashMoneyCane]

Often times it's not as simple as a one time "bag" payment. There's often other things involved like cushy jobs and new houses for family members. Luxury car leases that are paid off as long as you're putting in work on the field. Scholarships for family members who otherwise would not have earned one. These boosters are smart enough to know that they need to offer something that will keep the kid at that school for at least three years.

This is good insight. Going to my previous post on wealth transfer, these tactics would be called something like "gift structuring."

I made a (probably way too long) post a while back about how money is donated to universities by boosters. It's basically the same thing.

 

[Gatorhater]

Reported to the IRS for receiving income and not paying taxes on it.

Basically, the absolute worst possible thing that could happen to you.

That would be death to school not the player. He claims it was gift. The bag man would have had to file a 1099 for it to be income. However, bag man would also have needed to report it as a gift if were one. Either way, bag man in it deep. If irs ever gets into this stuff, bad bad crap gonna happen to bunch of people. Ultimate would be RICO of the schools assets since it would be a continuos criminal activity. How sweet would that be?

 

[CashMoneyCane]

That would be death to school not the player. He claims it was gift. The bag man would have had to file a 1099 for it to be income. However, bag man would also have needed to report it as a gift if were one. Either way, bag man in it deep. If irs ever gets into this stuff, bad bad crap gonna happen to bunch of people. Ultimate would be RICO of the schools assets since it would be a continuos criminal activity. How sweet would that be?

It would be bad for both. You know the player blew the bag, so he's got nothing. IRS says he got $50k, or whatever, wants taxes on it. What happens? Player is kicked out of school and probably left with nothing, school is screwed, bag man probably gets dissociated from the school and has to pay interest and penalties. So the bag man suffers least here.

You're spot on about the rest. And it might be big enough to warrant the effort. My guess would be roughly seven figures exchanges hands in recruiting in any given season.

 

[TRick72]

I wonder what the laws are if you gift to a church? Back a few years ago I was on vacation at a resort in Antigua. Got talking to a BAMA homer. He started spilling some info about how really a complex web it is that BAMA boosters have with the key being a number of churches involved to clean the money and get it to the recruits.

There is no limit to how much anyone can donate to a church, or other not for profits for that matter. Don’t doubt you were told this or that Baga would do this, but doing it this way would actually raise the legal and criminal risk to everyone involved. Most Pastors guard their tax exemption harder than they guard their daughters virginity, especially if they are a big or well established Church. If done, likely done through a very tiny church (think strip mall church) or establishing front churches, which is extremely risky. Both these methods can easily result in fraud and money laundering charges, especially if Donor then deducts “donations” on tax returns.

 

[Number1CanesFan]

Sorry if this is off topic, but what is to stop these kids that get bags from just telling the school (boosters) that gave money to pound sand and go where they want to go anyway? It's like robbing another criminal, who they going to tell? Am I missing something in all seriousness?

Yes. I don't buy into so many players getting money directly. That would be too easy. It comes in other forms to families and relatives sometimes in the form of better jobs. A la Sony Michel's parents allegedly moving to Georgia and getting paid twice as much as what they were making in South Florida.

Bag drops have many forms.

 

[TRick72]

This is good insight. Going to my previous post on wealth transfer, these tactics would be called something like "gift structuring."

I made a (probably way too long) post a while back about how money is donated to universities by boosters. It's basically the same thing.

That’s exactly right, the most likely way it is done is to use (abuse) gift transfer laws. As I mentioned earlier, anyone can gift $14k a year, $28k for married filing jointly ($15k and $30k for 2018) to as many individuals as they like without having to file a gift tax return. Recipient does not have to pay income taxes on a gift. If the giver “gifts” more than $15k ($30k) in 2018, they then have to file gift tax return and begin reducing their lifetime exemption. These annual limits apply for any gifts given including cash, houses, and cars. (Exemption is if they pay educational or medical expenses directly to a providing institution).

The way for everyone involved to limit legal and criminal liability is to gift annual amounts to various family members, via cash and/or leased cars/houses. Another way is for multiple bag man to “gift” the amounts to individual players, 10 to 20 married bag men can give a recruit $300-600k. This obviously is against NCAA rules and highly unethical but “likely” not illegal. The way the IRS can go after them is to argue these are not “gifts” and are actually compensation for goods and services and file RICO for payroll tax evasion. This would land bag man AND player in serious legal trouble. Although it would be difficult to prove since bagmen typically don’t see an economic benefit from arrangement.

 

[Hoyacane1620]

Haselwod is an interesting recruit this year. Says it like it is.

I'm not really a tax guy, but spent a while in private banking (at one of the really big ones) on the investments side, which means you take on some tax planning issues. Not to necessarily say this would work in a "bagman" scenario, but there are more ways to pass money tax free than there are excuses from Gator fans for why they're so awful.

The notion of boosters passing gifts through churches makes a lot of sense. Lots of cash donations to churches, so it's hard to track. And then once they're established, I doubt they're really scrutinized by the IRS.

Sounds smart to me. So I doubt Bama is doing it, but maybe like Vanderbilt or something.

Isn't this Clemson's pipeline? Pretty sure someone said that once

 

[umhurricane2511]

Didn’t that one Auburn booster own a Casino?
Croots would magically win cash?

 

[TRick72]

Didn’t that one Auburn booster own a Casino?
Croots would magically win cash?

That could be a way to do it. However, you are raising the legal and criminal liability as far as it goes there. Casinos are required to give a 1099 to anyone who “wins” $600 or more. They could just give recruits a series of jackpots under $600 but that is money laundering which would draw the attention of the FBI, DOJ, IRS and State gaming authorities.

Owner would not risk the jail time and much less their holy grail, the cash printing gaming license. Casinos are the most regulated and scrutinized businesses that there is, even the tribal ones. A few years back, the IRS went after Chief Billie of the Micosukee tribe for taxes when he wasn’t even required to pay taxes for some loophole. Believed they settled.

 

[skeeter]

I would rather our Louisiana alums be all over Kardell Thomas.

both though actually...Emery is the real deal too.

 

[pcitycane]

From a general perspective it would be ignorant to assume everyone pays and we don't.

This thing is rampant all over the country. It has become a part of the game. Who has the deepest pockets?

I played hs ball with a guy im still in touch with to this day. He was a 5 star running back out of Panama city. Had offers to go anywhere he wanted but his grades were not so good. I know for a fact he was paid or gifted something by almost every school that was recruiting him. Fsu hooked him up with thousands worth of gift cards to various places. He would receive a few hundred bucks here and there courtesy of auburn. These instances were in 11th grade. He ended up going to Ole Miss. He played a bit but never stood out.

Also it was rumored around those parts that Alabama secured Eddie Williams 5 star from pc for only 2500.

I can't confirm that rumor but the stuff about Enrique I was close to. Just saying if it's happening on that small of a scale I can't imagine that there are very many squeaky clean progrums out there. I'm not saying Richt doesn't run a clean one and I'm not implying we pay. Just my coupla pennies.

 

[kryptonite]

Sorry if this is off topic, but what is to stop these kids that get bags from just telling the school (boosters) that gave money to pound sand and go where they want to go anyway? It's like robbing another criminal, who they going to tell? Am I missing something in all seriousness?

If I were a uga booster, I'd want to give the kid the big payout after he signed. I'm sure they get some cash during the process, but when you hear about guys getting 100k+ I assume that's after they're on the team. Cars or property would need to be in somebody else's name anyway, so they can probably take that back.

That's just my guess based on common sense and a presumed desire not to pay a kid going to another school. For all I know the ball is so in the kid's court that boosters are forced to give them the money and hope.

 

[kryptonite]

From a general perspective it would be ignorant to assume everyone pays and we don't.

This thing is rampant all over the country. It has become a part of the game. Who has the deepest pockets?

I played hs ball with a guy im still in touch with to this day. He was a 5 star running back out of Panama city. Had offers to go anywhere he wanted but his grades were not so good. I know for a fact he was paid or gifted something by almost every school that was recruiting him. Fsu hooked him up with thousands worth of gift cards to various places. He would receive a few hundred bucks here and there courtesy of auburn. These instances were in 11th grade. He ended up going to Ole Miss. He played a bit but never stood out.

Also it was rumored around those parts that Alabama secured Eddie Williams 5 star from pc for only 2500.

I can't confirm that rumor but the stuff about Enrique I was close to. Just saying if it's happening on that small of a scale I can't imagine that there are very many squeaky clean progrums out there. I'm not saying Richt doesn't run a clean one and I'm not implying we pay. Just my coupla pennies.

I would guess everybody has boosters that would swing a kid a few hundred and that would start to add up, but the big payouts you hear about? Only a few schools seem to have that kind of juice, and you see them land the 5* kids and stay at the top.

 

[Gatorhater]

It would be bad for both. You know the player blew the bag, so he's got nothing. IRS says he got $50k, or whatever, wants taxes on it. What happens? Player is kicked out of school and probably left with nothing, school is screwed, bag man probably gets dissociated from the school and has to pay interest and penalties. So the bag man suffers least here.

You're spot on about the rest. And it might be big enough to warrant the effort. My guess would be roughly seven figures exchanges hands in recruiting in any given season.

Kid would certainly be screwed by NCAA rules but could escape irs by the claim it was gift — gift tax is due from the donor not the person getting the gift(not sure what latest tax bill did with gift tax). He would have to give up the bag man, who is well and completely screwed. Bag man would had to have filed either income or gift forms. To save himself the flipping would have begin. If feds want to make big case, the flipping would continue up the ladder. Granted some bag men might be willing to take the fall, but irs can usually find a crime hiding somewhere if they want. Jail can really challenge your loyalty.

I doubt we ever see anything like it because both parties have reasons to ignore it. Dems would like to kill football but hate to damage thier propaganda tool universities. Republicans get lots of votes out of the big football areas so no desired to risk that. Maybe some Berrnie types might drive it.

 

[kryptonite]

Kid would certainly be screwed by NCAA rules but could escape irs by the claim it was gift — gift tax is due from the donor not the person getting the gift(not sure what latest tax bill did with gift tax). He would have to give up the bag man, who is well and completely screwed. Bag man would had to have filed either income or gift forms. To save himself the flipping would have begin. If feds want to make big case, the flipping would continue up the ladder. Granted some bag men might be willing to take the fall, but irs can usually find a crime hiding somewhere if they want. Jail can really challenge your loyalty.

I doubt we ever see anything like it because both parties have reasons to ignore it. Dems would like to kill football but hate to damage thier propaganda tool universities. Republicans get lots of votes out of the big football areas so no desired to risk that. Maybe some Berrnie types might drive it.

How would the IRS trace the money? Other than some kid saying a booster gave him money, what's to say it ever happened. And I assume if a kid is getting $100k it's not all from one guy, so even if you could trace a particular booster's contribution how would they trace the rest?

I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm actually curious how they'd catch somebody even if a kid ratted.

 

[CANE1775]

From a general perspective it would be ignorant to assume everyone pays and we don't.

This thing is rampant all over the country. It has become a part of the game. Who has the deepest pockets?

I played hs ball with a guy im still in touch with to this day. He was a 5 star running back out of Panama city. Had offers to go anywhere he wanted but his grades were not so good. I know for a fact he was paid or gifted something by almost every school that was recruiting him. Fsu hooked him up with thousands worth of gift cards to various places. He would receive a few hundred bucks here and there courtesy of auburn. These instances were in 11th grade. He ended up going to Ole Miss. He played a bit but never stood out.

Also it was rumored around those parts that Alabama secured Eddie Williams 5 star from pc for only 2500.

I can't confirm that rumor but the stuff about Enrique I was close to. Just saying if it's happening on that small of a scale I can't imagine that there are very many squeaky clean progrums out there. I'm not saying Richt doesn't run a clean one and I'm not implying we pay. Just my coupla pennies.

I see you ended up saying his name but I knew from the jump who you were talking about. He was committed to AU at one point.

 

[Jonbob]

That could be a way to do it. However, you are raising the legal and criminal liability as far as it goes there. Casinos are required to give a 1099 to anyone who “wins” $600 or more. They could just give recruits a series of jackpots under $600 but that is money laundering which would draw the attention of the FBI, DOJ, IRS and State gaming authorities.

Owner would not risk the jail time and much less their holy grail, the cash printing gaming license. Casinos are the most regulated and scrutinized businesses that there is, even the tribal ones. A few years back, the IRS went after Chief Billie of the Micosukee tribe for taxes when he wasn’t even required to pay taxes for some loophole. Believed they settled.

As a gaming regulator I agree totally with this evaluation. Not the best way to move money with how heavily gaming is watched.

Jon