NCAA investigation, go ahead, ask me...

[KLCane]

Can we negotiate with the NCAA on the penalties at any time after the NOA is sent? That is, can we get the NOA and start working with the NCAA on the punishment? If so, is such a procedure common and would Miami have the type of scenario where they may do this?

No. NCAA Enforcement investigates and reports on its findings. The COI makes determinations on the evidence and comes up with a punishment. There is no negotiating with the COI before the hearing.

In the Pell Grant case, Tad Foote made himself to look like he had no idea what was going on. He was quoted in the newspapers after UM's hearing essentially begging the COI for a hint on whether UM should self impose a bowl ban. The Public Report came out on December 1, if I remember correctly, and, while Foote claimed UM self imposed a bowl ban, the COI Public Report did not state that that was the case. To this day, I don't know what actually happened, but I have a lot more faith in this administration than anyone could have had in that one back in 1995.

As a follow up, how did Penn State get penalties, etc. without going through this process?

 

[Ibis Wingz]

Can we negotiate with the NCAA on the penalties at any time after the NOA is sent? That is, can we get the NOA and start working with the NCAA on the punishment? If so, is such a procedure common and would Miami have the type of scenario where they may do this?

No. NCAA Enforcement investigates and reports on its findings. The COI makes determinations on the evidence and comes up with a punishment. There is no negotiating with the COI before the hearing.

In the Pell Grant case, Tad Foote made himself to look like he had no idea what was going on. He was quoted in the newspapers after UM's hearing essentially begging the COI for a hint on whether UM should self impose a bowl ban. The Public Report came out on December 1, if I remember correctly, and, while Foote claimed UM self imposed a bowl ban, the COI Public Report did not state that that was the case. To this day, I don't know what actually happened, but I have a lot more faith in this administration than anyone could have had in that one back in 1995.

As a follow up, how did Penn State get penalties, etc. without going through this process?

They agreed to the penalties with the NCAA.

 

[KLCane]

Can we negotiate with the NCAA on the penalties at any time after the NOA is sent? That is, can we get the NOA and start working with the NCAA on the punishment? If so, is such a procedure common and would Miami have the type of scenario where they may do this?

No. NCAA Enforcement investigates and reports on its findings. The COI makes determinations on the evidence and comes up with a punishment. There is no negotiating with the COI before the hearing.

In the Pell Grant case, Tad Foote made himself to look like he had no idea what was going on. He was quoted in the newspapers after UM's hearing essentially begging the COI for a hint on whether UM should self impose a bowl ban. The Public Report came out on December 1, if I remember correctly, and, while Foote claimed UM self imposed a bowl ban, the COI Public Report did not state that that was the case. To this day, I don't know what actually happened, but I have a lot more faith in this administration than anyone could have had in that one back in 1995.

As a follow up, how did Penn State get penalties, etc. without going through this process?

They agreed to the penalties with the NCAA.

That was my original question. How did Penn State go without hearings, etc., which is what Dapper is saying we have to go through, to get to the penalties stage? For example, if we get the NOA and do not dispute it, why can't we go through the negotiation process that Penn State went through to go to the penalties stage?

 

[jakeman1]

Can we negotiate with the NCAA on the penalties at any time after the NOA is sent? That is, can we get the NOA and start working with the NCAA on the punishment? If so, is such a procedure common and would Miami have the type of scenario where they may do this?

No. NCAA Enforcement investigates and reports on its findings. The COI makes determinations on the evidence and comes up with a punishment. There is no negotiating with the COI before the hearing.

In the Pell Grant case, Tad Foote made himself to look like he had no idea what was going on. He was quoted in the newspapers after UM's hearing essentially begging the COI for a hint on whether UM should self impose a bowl ban. The Public Report came out on December 1, if I remember correctly, and, while Foote claimed UM self imposed a bowl ban, the COI Public Report did not state that that was the case. To this day, I don't know what actually happened, but I have a lot more faith in this administration than anyone could have had in that one back in 1995.

As a follow up, how did Penn State get penalties, etc. without going through this process?

They agreed to the penalties with the NCAA.

That was my original question. How did Penn State go without hearings, etc., which is what Dapper is saying we have to go through, to get to the penalties stage? For example, if we get the NOA and do not dispute it, why can't we go through the negotiation process that Penn State went through to go to the penalties stage?

I think the NCAA used the investigation already performed by the committee Penn State itself hired, so there was no long, drawn out process. Sandusky has already been found guilty, the report was findings that the Penn State people admitted to themselves, so I don't think they needed a hearing to go over findings and then have Penn State's own investigation found. The severity of what happened probably pushed to time scale up as well, trying to get the penalties in before people were too numb to what had happened...like what's happening now with the governor.

 

[DMoney]

Dapper,
I've spoken to a few sources on this, and it appears the NCAA has spoken to the lawyers of coaches at other schools but none at Miami. Can we read anything into this?

 

[hasena75]

Dapper,
I've spoken to a few sources on this, and it appears the NCAA has spoken to the lawyers of coaches at other schools but none at Miami. Can we read anything into this?

Coaches at other schools that USED to be employed at UM?

If this is the case I would assume that it's a good thing..no?

 

[BigCaneAl]

Dapper,
I've spoken to a few sources on this, and it appears the NCAA has spoken to the lawyers of coaches at other schools but none at Miami. Can we read anything into this?

Would seem positive on the surface, but the persecuted UM fan in me thinks they are negotiating some kind of partial immunity. Lets hope hope they are simply following their new policy of punishing the coaches.

 

[bbcane]

http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/story/21563406/potential-landmark-casesmake-theseperiloustimes-for-the-ncaa

Dodd article. Talks of firing of chick who sent threat to players. Am I only one to miss this

 

[bbcane]

Grantstein was the second NCAA investigator fired in 2012. Another, believed to be veteran Ameen Najjar, was relieved while working the Nevin Shapiro case at Miami. During that case it was revealed in November an NCAA assistant director of enforcement (not Najjar) wrote a letter to former Miami players saying they would be considered guilty if they didn't cooperate with the investigation.

"I've never heard of anything like this before," a compliance source told CBSSports.com's Bruce Feldman. "This seems like a total bullying tactic and sounds like a desperate move. They're basically saying they're taking the word of a billion-dollar ponzi schemer over some guys who may have taken a few steak dinners? It looks like the NCAA has spent a ton of money and time investigating this and they're trying to cover their investment."

In the Miami case, the NCAA is relying on a convicted felon Nevin Shapiro for information. Shapiro is serving 20 years in prison for his role in a $930 million Ponzi scheme. It wouldn't be the first time the NCAA used a source of questionable credibility. The association relied on the testimony of convicted felon Lloyd Lake to pin blame on McNair in the Reggie Bush case.

"It's simply not a fair process," O'Leary said.

At least Shapiro reportedly has receipts and records to back up his allegations. But if the case is so solid, why did the NCAA write that threatening letter? Is it really a case of "bullying" as the quote above suggests?

Emmert deserves credit. He is arguably the first NCAA president to have an agenda while in office. His is overall reform. A dramatic reform package could move forward this week at the convention. But some think it's too much, too fast. Smaller NCAA Manual? Absolutely.

Abusive enforcement? Never.

"There's a common thread with all these issues," said Michael Buckner, a veteran South Florida attorney who aids schools in NCAA investigations. "In each case, the NCAA has been accused of exceeding [its] procedures or ignoring [its] procedures. ... The NCAA is supposed to be objective."

 

[bbcane]

"I can't recall a time when the NCAA has been under such heavy and consistent criticism for its enforcement actions as it has been in the last few years," said attorney Scott Tompsett, a veteran of more than two decades representing coaches in NCAA investigations. "The NCAA's credibility seems to be very low right now."

"The NCAA's risk management, it's nonexistent," said Sean O'Leary, an attorney who has been representing a former State University of New York-Buffalo (also University of Buffalo) basketball coach in a case against the NCAA for a decade. "If you look at right now, they've got a lot of balls up in the air."

 

[bbcane]

Wrong thread? Or already posted?

 

[DapperSlapper]

You guys asking about hookers, other witnesses and their credibility; this has to do with credible information. If no one steps up then the information will not be taken into account.

Dapper, this is one I have been wanting someone to answer. What is the deal with the threats to the former players about banning? Does it hold weight and can they force UM to do it? Does it give leverage to the University in appeals or legal action?

I posted about this when that letter was made public. I viewed it as an idle threat for the following reasons:

The letter was from Enforcement - it is their job to be as over the top and forceful as possible. That being said, the evidence is judged by the COI. The COi does not hesitate to disagree with Enforcement - it happens frequently.

In this instance, I am very confident that the COI would disagree with Enforcement's view that silence = admission because of Bylaw 32.8.7.4, which states,

"In presenting information and evidence for consideration by the Committee on Infractions during an infractions hearing, the enforcement staff shall present only information that can be attributed to individuals who are willing to be identified. Information obtained from individuals not wishing to be identified shall not be relied on by the Committee on Infractions in making findings of violations. Such confidential sources shall not be identified to either the Committee on Infractions or the institution."

Note the "willing to be identified" language. Papacane was kind enough to steal that post from me last time...

This is correct. Anything Shapiro says has to be corroborated. Good luck finding those hookers and getting them to speak openly on the record.

 

[BigCaneAl]

Hadn't seen that article. Interesting read. It sure seems like the NCAA will tread lightly here.

 

[DapperSlapper]

Can we negotiate with the NCAA on the penalties at any time after the NOA is sent? That is, can we get the NOA and start working with the NCAA on the punishment? If so, is such a procedure common and would Miami have the type of scenario where they may do this?

No. NCAA Enforcement investigates and reports on its findings. The COI makes determinations on the evidence and comes up with a punishment. There is no negotiating with the COI before the hearing.

In the Pell Grant case, Tad Foote made himself to look like he had no idea what was going on. He was quoted in the newspapers after UM's hearing essentially begging the COI for a hint on whether UM should self impose a bowl ban. The Public Report came out on December 1, if I remember correctly, and, while Foote claimed UM self imposed a bowl ban, the COI Public Report did not state that that was the case. To this day, I don't know what actually happened, but I have a lot more faith in this administration than anyone could have had in that one back in 1995.

As a follow up, how did Penn State get penalties, etc. without going through this process?

Look earlier in the thread. I posted about this and included a link to the motion whereby Emmert got authority to act outside of the Bylaws. I'd rather just focus on UM's case. I'm thinking of proposing a law school class to teach part time as an adjunct faculty member on "NCAA law," if you could call it that. There are a lot of questions about a lot of cases - since we're all 'Canes (for the most part), I'd rather just focus on us.

 

[DapperSlapper]

Dapper,
I've spoken to a few sources on this, and it appears the NCAA has spoken to the lawyers of coaches at other schools but none at Miami. Can we read anything into this?

I suppose I'd prefer to know a timeline of these conversations in order to answer completely, but, it shouldn't mean much. I posted last night how I know an attorney representing an individual who is involved, in a sense, in this stuff. That attorney does not know whether his client will receive an NOA. Coincidentally, the Herald spoke to Michael Buckner (Haith's attorney), and Buckner said he was hopeful that Haith wouldn't receive an NOA. I was not speaking of Buckner last night, so that sentiment appears to be the norm for those representing individuals.

In this case, these individuals are all gone from UM, and they all have some sort of allegations (no matter how ridiculous) against them. UM is a corporation. It's corporate representative(s) have no idea what went on. The NCAA has no reason to be contact with UM to find out the answers to factual questions. The answers to those questions left campus with Haith, Stoutland, Pannunzio, Hurtt, etc. Without knowing more, that's why I'd say their lawyers have heard from the NCAA, and UM's have not.

 

[DapperSlapper]

Dapper,
I've spoken to a few sources on this, and it appears the NCAA has spoken to the lawyers of coaches at other schools but none at Miami. Can we read anything into this?

Would seem positive on the surface, but the persecuted UM fan in me thinks they are negotiating some kind of partial immunity. Lets hope hope they are simply following their new policy of punishing the coaches.

Conversations re: immunity should have taken place a long time ago...before the former coach in question started to provide information.

 

[DapperSlapper]

Dapper,

What is the actually difference between the definition of LOIC and FTM? Technically speaking, not in terms of punishments.

The NCAA phrases it like so: "A failure-to-monitor violation, although serious, is a separate and distinct violation that is considered less significant than a lack of institutional control. Violations resulting from a failure-to-monitor violation are usually limited in scope and do not involve the widespread inadequacies in rules-compliance systems and functions that are often found in lack-of-institutional-control cases."

What that means is the COI has the responsibility of determining that proven allegations amount to one or the other. Enforcement can argue LOIC, while the institution argues FTM, and the COI will sort it out. I suppose you'd have to read a bunch of Public Reports to see where the line is that separates the 2, but even that might not help. The COI isn't necessarily that consistent, especially over time.

 

[DapperSlapper]

Dapper

How compelling must the evidence be for an allegation to be included in the NOA? What is the standard?

How about the COI? Is the bar set a little higher there?

I have no idea what the standard is for inclusion in the NOA - you'd have to ask someone who has worked in NCAA Enforcement. I would imagine that enforcement has a good faith belief in the veracity of the allegation if they include it in the NOA, but maybe that's just the idealist in me.

As for the COI, allegations must be proven by clear and convincing evidence for them. That's a standard above the preponderance of the evidence standard used in the typical civil case in court, but below the reasonable doubt standard used in criminal cases. The NCAA also describes the standard used as "whether the information is credible, persuasive and of a nature that reasonable people would rely upon in the conduct of serious affairs."

 

[Biscuits]

Daps - Kickass thread.

How did the NCAA get away with the Cam Newton ruling? Is that considered to be a complete farce in your circles?

Bump.

If I missed a previous reply, my bad. Just seems like an egregious case of conflict of interest and looking the other way.

Wonder if it has implications for enforcement down the road.

 

[djciombor]

Dapper

How compelling must the evidence be for an allegation to be included in the NOA? What is the standard?

How about the COI? Is the bar set a little higher there?

I have no idea what the standard is for inclusion in the NOA - you'd have to ask someone who has worked in NCAA Enforcement. I would imagine that enforcement has a good faith belief in the veracity of the allegation if they include it in the NOA, but maybe that's just the idealist in me.

As for the COI, allegations must be proven by clear and convincing evidence for them. That's a standard above the preponderance of the evidence standard used in the typical civil case in court, but below the reasonable doubt standard used in criminal cases. The NCAA also describes the standard used as "whether the information is credible, persuasive and of a nature that reasonable people would rely upon in the conduct of serious affairs."

Daps,

Is the evidence used by enforcement to add an allegation to the NOA included at the time the NOA is presented? What info from the NCAA will Miami have upon which to base its rebuttals to various allegations? I can't imagine it's just a list without supporting documentation...