Myth Busters: Lack of NFL Talent

[JG13]

I've got a theory...

Going back 15 years, these are the QBs for ACC champions.
Five star recruit
First round pick
Both

2010 VT - Tyrod Taylor
2011 Clemson - Tajh Boyd
2012 FSU - EJ Manuel
2013 FSU - Jameis Winston
2014 FSU - Jameis Winston
2015 Clemson - Deshaun Watson
2016 Clemson - Deshaun Watson
2017 Clemson - Kelly Bryant
2018 Clemson - Trevor Lawrence
2019 Clemson - Trevor Lawrence
2020 Clemson - Trevor Lawrence
2021 Pitt - Kenny Pickett
2022 Clemson - DJ Uiagalelei
2023 FSU - Jordan Travis
2024 Clemson - Cade Klubnik

Obviously, some of them didn't deserve to be 5* or go in the first round. However, 13 out of 15 still fall into at leat one of those categories.


Since 2004, we have started:
Kirby Freeman
Kyle Wright
Robert Marve
Jacory Harris
Stephen Morris
Brad Kaaya
Malik Rosier
N'Kosi Perry
Jarren Williams
D'Eriq King
Tyler Van Dyke
Jake Garcia
Jacurri Brown
Emory Williams
Cam Ward

Not only was Kaaya our first, and currently the ONLY, QB drafted since Dorsey in 2003, Kaaya was also our highest drafted QB (31st pick in the 6th round - 215 overall) since Erickson in 1990 (20th pick in the 5th round 131 overall).

Cam will be the ONLY QB we've had drafted before the 5th round since Walsh back in 1989.

 

[bobbydigius]

**** the excuses by now the talent is Mario’s fault. Ain’t no **** excuses he put the roster together and already had the time to put it together. Now I have to read the rest of this post when I have the time, I’m rushing right now.

The talent is more than enough to win the ACC, it has been and continues to be coaching the talent up.

 

[FuriousStyles]

I've got a theory...

Going back 15 years, these are the QBs for ACC champions.
Five star recruit
First round pick
Both

2010 VT - Tyrod Taylor
2011 Clemson - Tajh Boyd
2012 FSU - EJ Manuel
2013 FSU - Jameis Winston
2014 FSU - Jameis Winston
2015 Clemson - Deshaun Watson
2016 Clemson - Deshaun Watson
2017 Clemson - Kelly Bryant
2018 Clemson - Trevor Lawrence
2019 Clemson - Trevor Lawrence
2020 Clemson - Trevor Lawrence
2021 Pitt - Kenny Pickett
2022 Clemson - DJ Uiagalelei
2023 FSU - Jordan Travis
2024 Clemson - Cade Klubnik

Obviously, some of them didn't deserve to be 5* or go in the first round. However, 13 out of 15 still fall into at leat one of those categories.


Since 2004, we have started:
Kirby Freeman
Kyle Wright
Robert Marve
Jacory Harris
Stephen Morris
Brad Kaaya
Malik Rosier
N'Kosi Perry
Jarren Williams
D'Eriq King
Tyler Van Dyke
Jake Garcia
Jacurri Brown
Emory Williams
Cam Ward

Not only was Kaaya our first, and currently the ONLY, QB drafted since Dorsey in 2003, Kaaya was also our highest drafted QB (31st pick in the 6th round - 215 overall) since Erickson in 1990 (20th pick in the 5th round 131 overall).

Cam will be the ONLY QB we've had drafted before the 5th round since Walsh back in 1989.

Great point but in our case let’s do what we need to “get there” first.

Not consistently losing games you’re supposed win gets you those kind of players.

If we were getting to ACC Championship game often and losing that’s a different conversation because they’ll see vision… that were competitive. This team is close.

What’s been happening is we’re out the mix late October early November because we like to trade wins yearly with GT… UVA or somebody trash or lose to UNC for the 5th consecutive time.

For a lot of kids who could go anywhere in the country and may not have any nostalgic ties to UM the film hasn’t been appealing.

 

[SCarolina Ibis]

Great point but in our case let’s do what we need to “get there” first.

Not consistently losing games you’re supposed win gets you those kind of players.

If we were getting to ACC Championship game often and losing that’s a different conversation because they’ll see vision… that were competitive. This team is close.

What’s been happening is we’re out the mix late October early November because we like to trade wins yearly with GT… UVA or somebody trash or lose to UNC for the 5th consecutive time.

For a lot of kids who could go anywhere in the country and may not have any nostalgic ties to UM the film hasn’t been appealing.

Its crazy. Before we got Cam, we couldn't even luck our way into a QB.

Since 1999, 12 of the 16 teams currently in the ACC has had a QB taken in the first round.

Miami is one of 3 teams in the ACC that hasn't had a QB taken in the first 3 rounds (or the 4th or 5th) during that time.

The other 2 are GT, which ran the option for the majority of the last 25 years, and Wake Forest, which has had only 3 QBs drafted since 1939 and just 1 since 1966.

I don't understand how this is even possible. Even FIU had a QB taken in the 4th round, 5 years ago!

 

[cway313]

Its crazy. Before we got Cam, we couldn't even luck our way into a QB.

Since 1999, 12 of the 16 teams currently in the ACC has had a QB taken in the first round.

Miami is one of 3 teams in the ACC that hasn't had a QB taken in the first 3 rounds (or the 4th or 5th) during that time.

The other 2 are GT, which ran the option for the majority of the last 25 years, and Wake Forest, which has had only 3 QBs drafted since 1939 and just 1 since 1966.

I don't understand how this is even possible. Even FIU had a QB taken in the 4th round, 5 years ago!

Put the gun down. This is the craziest stat I have seen.

 

[HurricanePhilly]

Its crazy. Before we got Cam, we couldn't even luck our way into a QB.

Since 1999, 12 of the 16 teams currently in the ACC has had a QB taken in the first round.

Miami is one of 3 teams in the ACC that hasn't had a QB taken in the first 3 rounds (or the 4th or 5th) during that time.

The other 2 are GT, which ran the option for the majority of the last 25 years, and Wake Forest, which has had only 3 QBs drafted since 1939 and just 1 since 1966.

I don't understand how this is even possible. Even FIU had a QB taken in the 4th round, 5 years ago!

 

[SCarolina Ibis]

Put the gun down. This is the craziest stat I have seen.

Its baaad bad. I had to go back and edit some of it out to keep from hijacking the thread. But.. just since 2020:

FCS North Dakota State University had a QB taken in the 1st round
Liberty and Cincinnati had QBs taken in the 3rd
Western Kentucky, FIU, Purdue and Fresno State had QBs taken in the 4th.

Meanwhile, since 2020 at Miami..

We burned through King, Perry, Van Dyke, Garcia, Jacurri, Emory and Cam.

 

[FrancisSawyer]

This along w/ other future post are not meant to offend; but, for the next few months I will be resurrecting my series on “Myth Busters” surrounding various narratives used to justify/excuse the mediocrity surrounding The University of Miami circa 2004.

A little something about me: I HATE excuses, b/c
-they attempt to lessen the blame or seek to defend/justify
-(If you pledge any African-American Greek organization): Excuses are tools of incompetence used to build bridges to nowhere and monuments of nothingness.

Even though some excuses may have merit, more often than not it pacifies a status quo. With that being said, let’s dive into Myth Buster #2: We haven’t had ‘The Caliber of Talent.’

It may be true we haven’t had the caliber of talent to compete with the O$Us, Bamas, etc., U might be surprised that couldn’t be further from the truth in The ACC. Currently The []_[] sits at a paltry 95-74 (.562 winning %) in ACC Conference play since 2004.

Whether it’s been Coker, Shannon, Golden, Richt, Diaz, or now Mario there’s been this polarizing divide to justify inexcusable loses to certain programs (I’ll get to this in a moment). It’s Coker’s players fault, no it’s Shannon’s player’s fault! Wait, it’s DEFINITELY Golden’s player’s fault! Richt couldn’t recruit & it’s his player’s fault! No, no, no, IT’S LIPSY DIAZ’S player’s fault!!!!!

The commonality? No matter who’s the coach, no matter the era, they all produced mediocre results b/c apparently, none had enough “talent” & it’s always the predecessor’s fault. So let’s examine this claim, & we’re focusing strictly on the ACC, b/c before we can consider how we compare to others, we must examine how we compare to our current peers.

Did you know:
-Since 2004: The University of Miami has more draft picks than any other school in this conference?
Here are the # of NFL draft picks as of 2024’s draft (pls note, this will not include SMU or Cal since they are new members nor will it include former ACC member Maryland)
1. Miami - 100
T-2. FSU - 96
T-2. Clemson - 96
4. VT -63
5. UNC - 62
6. NCST - 53
T-7. BC - 40*
T-7 UVA - 40
9. WF - 34
T-10. GT - 32
T-10. Pitt - 32*
12. UL - 27*
13. Duke - 12
14. Cuse - 11*

*BC joined the ACC in 2005, Syracuse & Pitt joined in 2013, & UL joined in 2014

OK that’s great intel, but if you have followed any of my post, you know I’m big on the ‘quality’ of NFL prospects a team may have. I’ve posted indisputable evidence that the upper echelons have rosters filled with Day 1 & 2 guys or Rds 1-3. Don’t worry I’ve diagnosed this, as well.

Did you know:
-Since 2004: The University of Miami has produced the 3rd most Top-3 round draft picks in the ACC? Here’s the list as of 2024:
1. FSU - 48
2. Clemson - 45
3. Miami - 37
4. UNC - 25
T-5. BC - 21
T-5. VT - 21
T-5. NCSt - 21
8. UVA - 13
T-9. GT - 11
T-9. UL - 11
11. Pitt - 8
12. WF - 7
13. Cuse - 5
14. Duke - 4

Now let’s address the next elephant in the room, recruiting. This has been a sore, & quite contentious topic. Would it surprise you that The []_[] since 2004 has the 2nd highest avg. recruiting class in the ACC? Would it surprise you that our classes has ranked, on avg., in the Top 15 in the Nation? Here are the rankings:
1. FSU (10th)
2. Miami (13th)
3. Clemson (15th)
4. UNC (25th)
5. VT (32nd)
6. UL (40th)
7. NCSt (42nd)
T-8. Pitt (46th)
T-8. UVA (46th)
10. GT (48th)
11. BC (56th)
T-12. Duke (58th)
T-12. Cuse (58th)
14. WF (65th)

So on paper, we’ve:
-Produced more NFL talent than any ACC team since joining
-Produced the 3rd most quality NFL talent than any ACC team since joining
-Have the 2nd highest avg. recruiting ranking since joining the ACC

So how it that:
•VT has 4 ACC crowns despite being ranked 4th, 5th, & 5th in these same categories
•GT has 1 ACC crown despite being ranked 10th, 9th, & 10th in these same categories
•WF has 1 ACC crown despite being ranked 9th, 12, & 14th in the same categories

While we can’t claim 1?

How are we:
3-3 v. BC
11-9 v. GT
4-3 v. NCSt.
3-2 v. UL
1-1 v. Syracuse
8-12 v. UNC

When on paper, our talent has been far superior?

So the ? is, is the “lack of talent” narrative a fact or a myth to excuse mediocrity? Based upon the information provided, I’ll allow the board to decide.

You nailed it Relly! Coaching Coaching Coaching!!!!! That's what we have been missing for the past 20 years.

 

[Atom Atlas]

Its baaad bad. I had to go back and edit some of it out to keep from hijacking the thread. But.. just since 2020:

FCS North Dakota State University had a QB taken in the 1st round
Liberty and Cincinnati had QBs taken in the 3rd
Western Kentucky, FIU, Purdue and Fresno State had QBs taken in the 4th.

Meanwhile, since 2020 at Miami..

We burned through King, Perry, Van Dyke, Garcia, Jacurri, Emory and Cam.

Geeezzz .. King and Cam... Everything in between you can erase from existence.... Seeing those names leaves me bewildered... Aside from King and Cam no one else even had a pulse.... And yes , I was on the VanDyke bandwagon for a minute.... I can accept my faults....

 

[L A M P]

This thread gave me AIDS.

 

[Cane30]

Our coaching has been terrible since Coker. You get what you pay for. Basically around the start of BCS where ESPN got in bed with the SEC and spending took off. Ending USC's run after us.
I bet if you compare Miami's draft #'s starting around 07, they look completely different. Bad! Basically once Miami's dynasty run ended and the benefits of it in recruiting ended. Bama hired Saban 01/07
For about 13 years we got the left over scrapes in FL. Tiny little players who were overated by recruiting sites. Definitely some talent. Then our bad staff's got ahold of them.
We 100% had a talent and coaching problem for the longest
We now have Mario who's #1 talent is acquiring talent. We don't have a top 5 NIL program so NIL is hurting him. He is a top 5 recruiter. He is never going to be a great coach. He has many flaws as a coach.
This program is in better shape than it has been in, in 20 years. While his staff's have not been great, still the best we have had in forever. Their is no debate on talent right now compared to the last 18 years. That would be a joke. Mario shouldn't be losing to anyone outside of Clemson in the ACC this season, who we don't play. Do I have confidence in that? No! I am thankful to once again have a legit program. Can this staff deliver?
Our QB's have been a complete joke until Ward. I still remember QB U.
Go Canes!

 

[DrNovaCane]

Respectfully… if you believe lack of talent was the reason why we lost to GT and Syracuse I don’t know what to tell you. What I was talking about was getting “to” the game…. Not even winning it.

3 games to go… we’re UNDEFEATED. Georgia Tech who already lost 4 games, Wake Forest and Syracuse who lost 3 games. All we have to do is win 2 out of the 3 and we’re in. What happened was we put together enough tape by the end of the season that OCs knew what they needed to expose our defense and we didn’t respond to that. That’s it.

And you think it was a talent issue that lost us those games? I’m not saying we didn’t have holes because we did. If talent was the issue and Guidry did the absolute best he could with what he had he’d still be here.

With all due respect brother, OC's had enough tape by game 4 to expose this defense. In each of the 8 conference games, the opposing QB/offense went over their averages at the time we played them.

 

[Dwinstitles]

The talent is more than enough to win the ACC, it has been and continues to be coaching the talent up.

Yea and we had our best season so an argument can be made it’s getting coached up. We will find out this upcoming season though cause you need back to back good seasons. We haven’t had that since standard definition television

 

[Stats02]

Its baaad bad. I had to go back and edit some of it out to keep from hijacking the thread. But.. just since 2020:

FCS North Dakota State University had a QB taken in the 1st round
Liberty and Cincinnati had QBs taken in the 3rd
Western Kentucky, FIU, Purdue and Fresno State had QBs taken in the 4th.

Meanwhile, since 2020 at Miami..

We burned through King, Perry, Van Dyke, Garcia, Jacurri, Emory and Cam.

The QB situation in regards to our performance and record in the ACC is interesting. While we haven’t landed many 5 stars as you pointed out, we did land several high 4 stars and top transfer qbs (who were considered elite by that time) and still couldn’t win the ACC.

Majority of that list of qbs (minus Rosier, Morris, Emory) were 4 stars and highly recruited. Even Jacurri received multiple offers from some big time programs. A lot of posters on here thought Jake the Snake was the 2nd coming of Montana/Brady/Mahomes. So, we got some qb’s that we wanted and still sucked. We had the best qb in the country last year and couldn’t sniff the ACC championship game.

Although I agree with you that our inability to land/sign more talented qb’s has played a big role in our ACC success, I believe our issues are much more than that. We shouldn’t need a Trevor Lawrence every year just to compete for chance to play in the ACCCG.

 

[Angry Ibis]

When is this board going to get it through their collective thick head, that Mario is the only coach that could get the commitment and support from the powers that be to even possibly get Miami back to being Miami. We better hope Mario keeps building on this past year's success because if he doesn't work out, you can turn off the lights.

That's the fear they want you to spew...

I would rather Miami fold the program - if they truly believe Mario is the only coach that can win - then drop down to intermurals and save us all a bunch of time and money, because that is ******* idiotic to have such a belief.

 

[Rellyrell]

How do those numbers look if you slide the timeline by ten years? I get that it’s a 20 year look, but a ton of talent came to UM during the early 2000’s as we were coming off the run. Specifically, the 04 and 05 drafts had guys that were on the ‘01 team.

I prefer to look at raw data and draw my own conclusions rather than scan pre digested results and percentages. No, I don’t mean this as a slam against Rell. I do mean that I don’t know who was included from the elite draftees and who was excluded. I also am curious how the numbers look when 04-14 is removed.

Does it matter? I’m not ****ting on ur ?, rather asking does it matter when I slide the timeline? The point was in 20 yrs we’ve had not 1 ACC crown despite the personnel. So let’s say for instance I slide the timeline from 2004-2014, the results would be even more damning, considering that was the era we produced the most NFL picks.

However, I’m a fair, reasonable, & equitable poster; so let’s slide the scale to fit 2015 - present:

1. Clemson - 55 total draft picks (28 w/in the 1st 3 Rds)
2. Miami - 45 total draft picks (12 w/in the 1st 3 Rds)
3. FSU - 42 total draft picks (22 w/in the 1st 3 Rds)
4. Pitt - 29 total draft picks (7 w/in the 1st 3rd Rds)
5. UNC - 28 total draft picks (9 w/in the 1st 3 Rds)
6. UL - 27 total draft picks (11 w/in the 1st 3 Rds)
7. NCSt - 25 total draft picks (11 w/in the 1st 3 Rds)
8. VT - 23 total draft picks (7 w/in the 1st 3 Rds)
9. BC - 21 total draft picks (12 w/in the 1st 3 Rds)
10. WF - 15 total draft picks (4 w/in the 1st 3 Rds)
11. UVA - 12 total draft picks (3 w/in the 1st 3 Rds)
12. GT - 11 total draft picks (2 w/in the 1st 3 Rds)
13. Duke - 10 total draft picks (4 w/in the 1st 3 Rds)
14. Syracuse - 9 total draft picks (4 w/in the 1st 3 Rds)

So allow me to pause this graphic real quick; this is y I hate when add’l ?’s r ask when I present a detailed post, b/c now it opens up a new can of worms.

As u can see, we’re still Top 3 in the conference in either total draft picks & total quality picks; however, now a new glaring indictment has been shined on the myth of not having enough talent:

Looking at the Top 10 in this category, 6 comes from the old ACC Atlantic Division. That means our talent compared to the ACC Coastal has been far superior, yet here’s our record vs. The Coastal since 2015: 33-20 (.622)
•7-2 v. UVA
•7-2 v. VT
•6-2 v. Pitt
•6-3 v. Duke
•5-4 v. GT
•2-7 v. UNC

Recruiting Avg. rankings:
1. Clemson - 11th
2. Miami - 12th
3. FSU - 13th
4. UNC - 25th
T-5. UL - 39th
T-5. VT - 39th
7. NCSt - 42nd
8. Pitt - 48th
9. GT - 49th
10. UVA - 55th
11. Duke - 56th
12. Syracuse - 58th
13. BC - 62nd
14. WF - 65th

And jic, even if I were to remove the class rankings of 2023 & 2024 from this equation, our avg. class rank from 2015-2022 is 14th, which is still top 3 in the conference & would be by far #1 in the old ACC Coastal division.

So it doesn’t matter how U slide the scale, it doesn’t matter the era, the coach, the excuse of “not enough talent” is just that, an excuse & could easily be labeled as a myth.

 

[Angry Ibis]

I don't wanna go down the TVD rabbit hole, we've beaten that horse beyond recognition, but OP put together a fantastic thread with a lot of research, I'm not going to degrade it by turning it into pages and pages of TVD. His original thought was very well laid-out and rational. We have had much bigger problems than TVD over the past 20 years.

Agreed. Administration. Coaching. ******* laughable. Has not changed much. Sad.

 

[Angry Ibis]

Tyler was not benched in 2022. He was hurt and the other quarterbacks were so terrible they dragged him back out in one leg to play because we had literally nobody who could play better than Tyler Van Dyke with one leg. Now if you want to blame coaches for not recruiting better quarterbacks or not being able to do anything with Jake Garcia or Jacurri Brown, I’ll agree with that but those guys were exponentially worse than TVD who was already pretty bad to begin with.

Right. So....so exceptionally worse vs. bad.... and you go into 2023 with bad, exceptionally worse and Emory ******* Williams...

That is coaching malpractice from the roooooster manager who has little to no other skills as a corch.

 

[DTP]

Right. So....so exceptionally worse vs. bad.... and you go into 2023 with bad, exceptionally worse and Emory ******* Williams...

That is coaching malpractice from the roooooster manager who has little to no other skills as a corch.

Not going defend this staff’s inability to recruit quarterbacks. They absolutely should have had someone there to compete. I’m sure the time frame of firing and hiring offensive coordinators didn’t help. The Josh Gattis hire was probably the worst assistant hire in modern program history

 

[MiamisMoperiestMopes]

It’s talent!! No, It’s corching!!!

We've had enough talent to not be dog ****. We’ve had some pretty **** poor corching to not do enough with said talent. Its a poor mix.