Myth Busters: Lack of NFL Talent

Was Tyler hurt vs MTSU? They all sucked which is even more reason Mario should have identified backup/competition for Tyler prior to the 2023 season.
Usually benched players don’t just go right back to starting the next game. But yeah, they dropped the ball on not bringing in anyone to compete at quarterback. Nobody had a problem with that until week 5 of 2023 though.
 
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Usually benched players don’t just go right back to starting the next game. But yeah, they dropped the ball on not bringing in anyone to compete at quarterback. Nobody had a problem with that until week 5 of 2023 though. Except the people labeled MOPES because they didn't just fall in line with the narritive.
If Garcia wasn't terrible that wouldn't have happened. He did nothing to instill confidence.
 
This along w/ other future post are not meant to offend; but, for the next few months I will be resurrecting my series on “Myth Busters” surrounding various narratives used to justify/excuse the mediocrity surrounding The University of Miami circa 2004.

A little something about me: I HATE excuses, b/c
-they attempt to lessen the blame or seek to defend/justify
-(If you pledge any African-American Greek organization): Excuses are tools of incompetence used to build bridges to nowhere and monuments of nothingness.

Even though some excuses may have merit, more often than not it pacifies a status quo. With that being said, let’s dive into Myth Buster #2: We haven’t had ‘The Caliber of Talent.’

It may be true we haven’t had the caliber of talent to compete with the O$Us, Bamas, etc., U might be surprised that couldn’t be further from the truth in The ACC. Currently The []_[] sits at a paltry 95-74 (.562 winning %) in ACC Conference play since 2004.

Whether it’s been Coker, Shannon, Golden, Richt, Diaz, or now Mario there’s been this polarizing divide to justify inexcusable loses to certain programs (I’ll get to this in a moment). It’s Coker’s players fault, no it’s Shannon’s player’s fault! Wait, it’s DEFINITELY Golden’s player’s fault! Richt couldn’t recruit & it’s his player’s fault! No, no, no, IT’S LIPSY DIAZ’S player’s fault!!!!!

The commonality? No matter who’s the coach, no matter the era, they all produced mediocre results b/c apparently, none had enough “talent” & it’s always the predecessor’s fault. So let’s examine this claim, & we’re focusing strictly on the ACC, b/c before we can consider how we compare to others, we must examine how we compare to our current peers.

Did you know:
-Since 2004: The University of Miami has more draft picks than any other school in this conference?
Here are the # of NFL draft picks as of 2024’s draft (pls note, this will not include SMU or Cal since they are new members nor will it include former ACC member Maryland)
1. Miami - 100
T-2. FSU - 96
T-2. Clemson - 96
4. VT -63
5. UNC - 62
6. NCST - 53
T-7. BC - 40*
T-7 UVA - 40
9. WF - 34
T-10. GT - 32
T-10. Pitt - 32*
12. UL - 27*
13. Duke - 12
14. Cuse - 11*

*BC joined the ACC in 2005, Syracuse & Pitt joined in 2013, & UL joined in 2014

OK that’s great intel, but if you have followed any of my post, you know I’m big on the ‘quality’ of NFL prospects a team may have. I’ve posted indisputable evidence that the upper echelons have rosters filled with Day 1 & 2 guys or Rds 1-3. Don’t worry I’ve diagnosed this, as well.

Did you know:
-Since 2004: The University of Miami has produced the 3rd most Top-3 round draft picks in the ACC? Here’s the list as of 2024:
1. FSU - 48
2. Clemson - 45
3. Miami - 37
4. UNC - 25
T-5. BC - 21
T-5. VT - 21
T-5. NCSt - 21
8. UVA - 13
T-9. GT - 11
T-9. UL - 11
11. Pitt - 8
12. WF - 7
13. Cuse - 5
14. Duke - 4

Now let’s address the next elephant in the room, recruiting. This has been a soar, & quite contentious topic. Would it surprise you that The []_[] since 2004 has the 2nd highest avg. recruiting class in the ACC? Would it surprise you that our classes has ranked, on avg., in the Top 15 in the Nation? Here are the rankings:
1. FSU (10th)
2. Miami (13th)
3. Clemson (15th)
4. UNC (25th)
5. VT (32nd)
6. UL (40th)
7. NCSt (42nd)
T-8. Pitt (46th)
T-8. UVA (46th)
10. GT (48th)
11. BC (56th)
T-12. Duke (58th)
T-12. Cuse (58th)
14. WF (65th)

So on paper, we’ve:
-Produced more NFL talent than any ACC team since joining
-Produced the 3rd most quality NFL talent than any ACC team since joining
-Have the 2nd highest avg. recruiting ranking since joining the ACC

So how it that:
•VT has 4 ACC crowns despite being ranked 4th, 5th, & 5th in these same categories
•GT has 1 ACC crown despite being ranked 10th, 9th, & 10th in these same categories
•WF has 1 ACC crown despite being ranked 9th, 12, & 14th in the same categories

While we can’t claim 1?

How are we:
3-3 v. BC
11-9 v. GT
4-3 v. NCSt.
3-2 v. UL
1-1 v. Syracuse
8-12 v. UNC

When on paper, our talent has been far superior?

So the ? is, is the “lack of talent” narrative a fact or a myth to excuse mediocrity? Based upon the information provided, I’ll allow the board to decide.
One of the best posts in recent times. Couldn't agree with you more. Say what you will about Mario, he certainly appears to be a no excuses guy.

So if it isn't talent, what is it? Here are some choices:

1. UM attracts guys in the lower end of each * range so our talent isn't as strong as it appears
2. UM until recently underpaid assistant coaches
3. UM player development was poor
4. UM couldn't figure out how to get exceptionally talented guys on the field more, eg, Hester, Sam shields, etc
5. UM game planning was poor under multiple regimes
6. UM was a tweener----didn't attract top tier talent and didn't recruit solid, smart, hard working 3* guys who would never play in the NFL but were well suited to the college game; think Duke
7. As recruiting became more of a national effort our, So Fla dominance was eroded and we increasing lost game changers to OSU, alabama, etc
8. Each HC in this period was different, yet all failed. Coker and Randy never should have been hcs. Golden might be able to succeed but was tolerant of obvious failure (No D) over actually winning. Richt was well past his sell date and his son hire was nepotism at its worst. Manny was all sparkle and no substance.

To be candid, I don't know if it is an assortment of these things or others I didn't think of. I think you pretty clearly put a stake in the talent theory though.
 
Like I wrote I have not read it, and I disagree with a lot of what I assume it is, cause the NFL draft says so and the pro bowl says so. I am not going to debate back and forth for nothing, he has his view I have mine. Why would I go back and forth to change his mind?... and my mind is set. its pointless to me, but I still f with Rell Pause. I am cool with anyone disagreeing. But when you are in your lane you are in your lane and that's it.
It would take far less time to read it and then comment than to keep writing that you haven't read it. It isn't War and Peace.
 
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How is the alpha, roster management head coach allowing his roster to hold him hostage on the head coach?

He saw TVD didn’t work in his system in 2022 and should have moved on. He didn’t. Got held hostage. That’s on him.
Because time is a finite variable, he does not have a crystal ball, I don't believe that scenario had played out prior and there are not large numbers of plug and play QBs out there. Yes those sound like excuses, but they're also true. Let me explain a tad further...

The top QB's in the portal that spring were Bo Nix, Michael Penix, Sam Hartman, Caleb Williams, and Jayden Daniels. First, were any of them available prior to TVD's flirtations? I just spent a good 90 seconds on google and it appears as though TVD pulled this later in the Spring after those other guys were already accounted for at their new schools. Second, Caleb followed Lincoln to USC so he was never a real option. I never thought Bo Nix was all that (I was wrong) and I'm unsure of the others regardnig the perspective at that time (not now as it's hindsight). How many of those names were really believed to be better than TVD at that time? Let's not forget that the year prior, TVD was being paraded around as a future first round pick. Knock that all you want, but the buzz was real at the time. I believe TVDs actions are on TVD, not the coach.

There is so much to put on Mario yet I think this is a stretch. I can keep going, but I really don't thnk I'm going to change your opinion and I'm not changing mine. I mean that respectfuly all the way around. Go Canes.
 
One of the best posts in recent times. Couldn't agree with you more. Say what you will about Mario, he certainly appears to be a no excuses guy.

So if it isn't talent, what is it? Here are some choices:

1. UM attracts guys in the lower end of each * range so our talent isn't as strong as it appears
2. UM until recently underpaid assistant coaches
3. UM player development was poor
4. UM couldn't figure out how to get exceptionally talented guys on the field more, eg, Hester, Sam shields, etc
5. UM game planning was poor under multiple regimes
6. UM was a tweener----didn't attract top tier talent and didn't recruit solid, smart, hard working 3* guys who would never play in the NFL but were well suited to the college game; think Duke
7. As recruiting became more of a national effort our, So Fla dominance was eroded and we increasing lost game changers to OSU, alabama, etc
8. Each HC in this period was different, yet all failed. Coker and Randy never should have been hcs. Golden might be able to succeed but was tolerant of obvious failure (No D) over actually winning. Richt was well past his sell date and his son hire was nepotism at its worst. Manny was all sparkle and no substance.

To be candid, I don't know if it is an assortment of these things or others I didn't think of. I think you pretty clearly put a stake in the talent theory though.
It's everything you wrote AND talent deficiencies. Look at the last ten years. Look at the raw data, rather than the compiled statistics and percentages. There are a litaany of reasons as to why we've underachieved the last 20 years.

Also, you mentioned Shields and Hester. Shields I agree with you 100%. Hester though? They couldn't figure out what to do with him in the pros either aside from returning kicks.
 
Allowing guys with 0 accolades to dictate roster decisions puts you in this predicament. Players like Damari Brown and Tyler Van Dyke should not be able to hold the staff hostage. We create our own problems through complacency.
Gonna need to run the ball way more and we wont target a top portal rb because of fletcher and lyle lol. But targeted an elite one when we got cam ward. I wish mario was as kutthroat as people said he was when he came
 
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Gonna need to run the ball way more and we wont target a top portal qb because of fletcher and lyle lol. But targeted an elite one when we got cam ward. I wish mario was as kutthroat as people said he was when he came
I know what you meant, but change to RB instead of QB before the Beck guys get you.
 
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When is this board going to get it through their collective thick head, that Mario is the only coach that could get the commitment and support from the powers that be to even possibly get Miami back to being Miami. We better hope Mario keeps building on this past year's success because if he doesn't work out, you can turn off the lights.
I understand this 100%, im just still gonna call it disgusting. They’re managing a former premier football program like a family business
 
It's everything you wrote AND talent deficiencies. Look at the last ten years. Look at the raw data, rather than the compiled statistics and percentages. There are a litaany of reasons as to why we've underachieved the last 20 years.

Also, you mentioned Shields and Hester. Shields I agree with you 100%. Hester though? They couldn't figure out what to do with him in the pros either aside from returning kicks.
Have you compiled the data you assert tells a different 10 year story? I haven't seen it.
 
I've got a theory...

Going back 15 years, these are the QBs for ACC champions.
Five star recruit
First round pick
Both

2010 VT - Tyrod Taylor
2011 Clemson - Tajh Boyd
2012 FSU - EJ Manuel
2013 FSU - Jameis Winston
2014 FSU - Jameis Winston
2015 Clemson - Deshaun Watson
2016 Clemson - Deshaun Watson
2017 Clemson - Kelly Bryant
2018 Clemson - Trevor Lawrence
2019 Clemson - Trevor Lawrence
2020 Clemson - Trevor Lawrence
2021 Pitt - Kenny Pickett
2022 Clemson - DJ Uiagalelei
2023 FSU - Jordan Travis
2024 Clemson - Cade Klubnik

Obviously, some of them didn't deserve to be 5* or go in the first round. However, 13 out of 15 still fall into at leat one of those categories.


Since 2004, we have started:
Kirby Freeman
Kyle Wright
Robert Marve
Jacory Harris
Stephen Morris
Brad Kaaya
Malik Rosier
N'Kosi Perry
Jarren Williams
D'Eriq King
Tyler Van Dyke
Jake Garcia
Jacurri Brown
Emory Williams
Cam Ward

Not only was Kaaya our first, and currently the ONLY, QB drafted since Dorsey in 2003, Kaaya was also our highest drafted QB (31st pick in the 6th round - 215 overall) since Erickson in 1990 (20th pick in the 5th round 131 overall).

Cam will be the ONLY QB we've had drafted before the 5th round since Walsh back in 1989.
 
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I've got a theory...

Going back 15 years, these are the QBs for ACC champions.
Five star recruit
First round pick
Both

2010 VT - Tyrod Taylor
2011 Clemson - Tajh Boyd
2012 FSU - EJ Manuel
2013 FSU - Jameis Winston
2014 FSU - Jameis Winston
2015 Clemson - Deshaun Watson
2016 Clemson - Deshaun Watson
2017 Clemson - Kelly Bryant
2018 Clemson - Trevor Lawrence
2019 Clemson - Trevor Lawrence
2020 Clemson - Trevor Lawrence
2021 Pitt - Kenny Pickett
2022 Clemson - DJ Uiagalelei
2023 FSU - Jordan Travis
2024 Clemson - Cade Klubnik

Obviously, some of them didn't deserve to be 5* or go in the first round. However, 13 out of 15 still fall into at leat one of those categories.


Since 2004, we have started:
Kirby Freeman
Kyle Wright
Robert Marve
Jacory Harris
Stephen Morris
Brad Kaaya
Malik Rosier
N'Kosi Perry
Jarren Williams
D'Eriq King
Tyler Van Dyke
Jake Garcia
Jacurri Brown
Emory Williams
Cam Ward

Not only was Kaaya our first, and currently the ONLY, QB drafted since Dorsey in 2003, Kaaya was also our highest drafted QB (31st pick in the 6th round - 215 overall) since Erickson in 1990 (20th pick in the 5th round 131 overall).

Cam will be the ONLY QB we've had drafted before the 5th round since Walsh back in 1989.
Seeing all these names listed in one place is frightening.
 
If Garcia wasn't terrible that wouldn't have happened. He did nothing to instill confidence.
It’s easy to cover your bases if you just assume the worst for every player in the off season. Yet through 4 weeks of football in 2023 there wasn’t exactly a huge movement to change quarterbacks.

I mean I could say right now that Carson Beck isn’t going to play up to standards in 2025. If he does, it’s no harm, no foul but if he does fail, I get do take a victory lap.
 
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It’s easy to cover your bases if you just assume the worst for every player in the off season. Yet through 4 weeks of football in 2023 there wasn’t exactly a huge movement to change quarterbacks.

I mean I could say right now that Carson Beck isn’t going to play up to standards in 2025. If he does, it’s no harm, no foul but if he does fail, I get do take a victory lap.
You have decided to change this into something else. If you said right now that Carson Beck isn't going to play well. It would make sense based off the significant drop off in talent from the 2023 season, the significant injury he sustained in 2024 and his propensity to turn the ball over. Sure you can try and coat it with bull****, but it would be valid.
 
It’s not true Monday morning QBing with TVD, he was the villain here in 2022 and brought back, after he held Mario hostage — that’s coaching incompetence.

I don't wanna go down the TVD rabbit hole, we've beaten that horse beyond recognition, but OP put together a fantastic thread with a lot of research, I'm not going to degrade it by turning it into pages and pages of TVD. His original thought was very well laid-out and rational. We have had much bigger problems than TVD over the past 20 years.
 
I've got a theory...

Going back 15 years, these are the QBs for ACC champions.
Five star recruit
First round pick
Both

2010 VT - Tyrod Taylor
2011 Clemson - Tajh Boyd
2012 FSU - EJ Manuel
2013 FSU - Jameis Winston
2014 FSU - Jameis Winston
2015 Clemson - Deshaun Watson
2016 Clemson - Deshaun Watson
2017 Clemson - Kelly Bryant
2018 Clemson - Trevor Lawrence
2019 Clemson - Trevor Lawrence
2020 Clemson - Trevor Lawrence
2021 Pitt - Kenny Pickett
2022 Clemson - DJ Uiagalelei
2023 FSU - Jordan Travis
2024 Clemson - Cade Klubnik

Obviously, some of them didn't deserve to be 5* or go in the first round. However, 13 out of 15 still fall into at leat one of those categories.


Since 2004, we have started:
Kirby Freeman
Kyle Wright
Robert Marve
Jacory Harris
Stephen Morris
Brad Kaaya
Malik Rosier
N'Kosi Perry
Jarren Williams
D'Eriq King
Tyler Van Dyke
Jake Garcia
Jacurri Brown
Emory Williams
Cam Ward

Not only was Kaaya our first, and currently the ONLY, QB drafted since Dorsey in 2003, Kaaya was also our highest drafted QB (31st pick in the 6th round - 215 overall) since Erickson in 1990 (20th pick in the 5th round 131 overall).

Cam will be the ONLY QB we've had drafted before the 5th round since Walsh back in 1989.
This program has dropped the ball on the most important position in the game for too long. Part of the problem was that no quarterback wanted to come to Miami so they could line up in the I formation and take seven step drops while getting obliterated because the line couldn’t protect. The other problem was that we’d hyper focus on one guy and just not recruit any real competition at the spot. Once Jacory Harris won the starting job, Robert Marve transferred and we didn’t bother recruiting anyone else to compete. We kind of lucked into Stephen Morris but he was NEVER supposed to be the guy. Same thing with Brad Kaaya. He left early and we got stuck with Malik Rosier who was just a baseball player who was brought in for depth. Thank god for the transfer portal or we’d be having our second annual battle between Emory Williams and Judd Anderson for the starting spot next year.
 
Have you compiled the data you assert tells a different 10 year story? I haven't seen it.
No. I'm not the one who started this thread, asserted anything, compiled anything, etc. I thought I made it pretty clear that I think it's many, many things, not just coaching or just lack of talent. I haven't seen ANY data, just percentages without a rubric or explanation. I asked questions about the data that was used to present the findings which is completely fair on my part. You may have inferred something from what I wrote, but I was not implying anything; solely questioning the conclusions. OP must have the data he used. Why not start there?

If we see the data, it removes all doubt, does it not?
 
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