MEGA Conference Realignment and lawsuits Megathread: Stories, Tales, Lies, and Exaggerations

USF is trash , GT would be a much better choice all around


On what basis are you saying USF is "trash"?

While I also like GaTech, USF is a MUCH bigger school that would own its own media market. GaTech runs a distant second to UGa in Atlanta.

AAU membership, renewed commitment to spending and facilities (including on-campus stadium), and quite possibly the most populous Big 10 alum market outside of the current Big 10 footprint.

No basura.
 
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Depends on the structure of the PE deal.

There are a few primary strategies. In the most benign situation, a PE actually INTENDS to run the privately-held business well and make its upside from an IPO or a SPAC. This is what happened to my company, and our (former) PE recently finished cashing out all of its stock. And the PE made a tidy bundle.

In the middle-zone, a PE loads up a company with debt, thus taking a first-dollar priority as to (what would have been) the profits. This is the "leverage" model, where interest is "just another expense", though the IRS has made things harder with the interest expense limitation (pain in the *** to compute for the tax people). This is one of those that can test the greed of the PE, as some debt is fine and can be serviced out of the profits, but if the PE pushes the debt lever too hard, it will hobble the company.

In the most extreme situation (like what we just saw with Red Lobster), a PE will asset-strip a company. In the Red Lobster situation, Golden Gate Capital "bought" Red Lobster from Darden for $2.1 million, and then paid for it by selling the underlying real estate for $1.5 billion. This deal destroyed Red Lobster's credit rating and suddenly injected the company with rent expense that it never had previously (and was above-market, which might have worked before COVID, but absolutely is NOT working post-COVID). Sale-leasebacks can work in controlled situations. Shortly after completing construction, WalMart usually sells each store's real estate to an equity investor, BUT WITH A ROCK-SOLID LEASE IN PLACE, one that favors WalMart. That did not happen with Red Lobster.

From what I understand of the college PE deals, it will likely be a DEBT financing, giving the PE a priority on the revenue side, so it's like the second example above. I made a joke to another poster (who is a finance guy) about the schools needing to make a "full-faith-and-credit" pledge (it was a back-handed joke about US government deficit-spending), and he pointed out that the PEs will have first claim to the money. True. But THEN, the money that schools ordinarily received will be double-dinged by both the terms of the NCAA settlement AND any PE money that they accept and have to repay out of revenue. So, long story short, you might see schools having to finance SOME sports expenses out of the general operating fund. We can argue that the money comes from different silos, but money is fungible, so...somebody somewhere eventually pays the price.

And it will probably be the students.
There is no real difference between the first 2 scenarios or even the third. In nearly 99% of situations a PE firm will load up any acquisition with an optimal amount of debt from an outside lender like JPM Chase (sweet spot between where the company still generates enough cash to fund growth and juice investment returns for the PE fund). After loading the company with debt the PE fund will own it for 3-5 years and act as a board member(s) then exit. The most common exit is actually a sale to another PE fund or to a larger strategic company but yes an IPO is also a option depending on the company (SPACs are mostly gone). In terms of scenario 3, a situation like Red Lobster or Toys R Us is underwritten with the goal of a successful exit. It is true that a PE fund can juice returns by selling off real estate, but that is more of a feature, they still are hoping for this to be scenario 1 while having some way to limit downside risk with the assets the company owns. Every PE investment is just a lever on how much debt they can put on a business to get the highest return while still maximizing their chances of a favorable exit. There wouldn’t really ever be a situation where they are not using debt (unless you are including VC investing which is a lot riskier of a business because so many start-ups go bust).

If the PE Fund is the debt lender as you describe, they would be lending money to the college in the form of debt and get paid back in interest and principal repayment. They would actually have zero claim to the revenue here. Any profits would be shared by the equity holders and in this case the PE fund would be paid back as a fixed expense with no upside for any revenue growth.
 
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There is no real difference between the first 2 scenarios or even the third. In nearly 99% of situations a PE firm will load up any acquisition with an optimal amount of debt from an outside lender like JPM Chase (sweet spot between where the company still generates enough cash to fund growth and juice investment returns for the PE fund). After loading the company with debt the PE fund will own it for 3-5 years and act as a board member(s) then exit. The most common exit is actually a sale to another PE fund or to a larger strategic company but yes an IPO is also a option depending on the company (SPACs are mostly gone). In terms of scenario 3, a situation like Red Lobster or Toys R Us is underwritten with the goal of a successful exit. It is true that a PE fund can juice returns by selling off real estate, but that is more of a feature, they still are hoping for this to be scenario 1 while having some way to limit downside risk with the assets the company owns.

If the PE Fund is the debt lender as you describe, they would be lending money to the college in the form of debt and get paid back in interest and principal repayment. They would actually have zero claim to the revenue here. Any profits would be shared by the equity holders and in this case the PE fund would be paid back as a fixed expense with no upside for any revenue growth.


There are massive differences between the first two scenarios, and the third as well.

You are talking out of your *** with your "nearly 99%" statistic.

Thank you for quoting from your Finance textbook. The real world doesn't work that way. I ******* cracked up on "juice returns by selling off real estate". Hilarious. You must be a recent college graduate who still believes what your bosses tell him to believe.

Please tell me how Golden Gate Capital "juiced the returns" on its 2014 acquisition of Red Lobster by immediately selling off $1.5 billion of real estate on a $2.1 billion acquisiton, and then selling 25% of the company in 2016 to the Thai investors for $575 million. "Juiced returns". I'm still laughing. That means Golden Gate acquired 75% of Red Lobster for free. Those are some seriously "juiced returns".

Unless by "juiced returns", you mean to squeeze all the juice out and then leave the dried remains. Because THAT would be accurate.

You probably watched Wall Street and yelled "fake news" at Gordon Gekko.
 
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Was reading some comments on Warchant by a guy who spent Monday with some media execs and the ACC situation was a topic. Comments that he shared (and TIFWIW):

-FOX and ESPN in agreement that FSU will leave the ACC. Details being worked out regarding $$$.
-Big 10 is the destination.
-ND is watching closely as their COVID deal with the ACC includes some conference composition details. If FSU leaves,
then ND is right out the door behind them. They will take all sports to the B10 except football, will remain independent
in football, and either play 5-6 games with the B10 or a mix of B10 / SEC.

Had no comments regarding Clemson destination. Did state that there would be another southern school ... eventually.

He mentioned a couple of times that the entire scenario is being 100% orchestrated by the media partners.
Can't speak on the ND piece as i have not heard any smoke on them going to the BIG10 right now. I've heard they have spoken to the Big East for their other sports in the event the ACC collapses, but they are invested in the ACCs survival so think thats a last resort. They didn't pull all the strings they did to get Stanford and Cal (more so Stanford) a lifeline just to bail on them. Football will stay independent as long as NBC continues to grease the wheels and the new ND AD ensures that will continue for the foreseeable future.

What I can confirm is that ESPN and Fox are definitely talking. Joint media deals and ballooning rights negotiations have led many in those two companies to realize they can make more money working together than by killing one another. There is a reason that Fox did not bid on the CFP this round... Also ND staying independent benefits both Fox and ESPN versus creating a bidding war between the 2 to get ND in their prized flagship asset.
 
There is no real difference between the first 2 scenarios or even the third. In nearly 99% of situations a PE firm will load up any acquisition with an optimal amount of debt from an outside lender like JPM Chase (sweet spot between where the company still generates enough cash to fund growth and juice investment returns for the PE fund). After loading the company with debt the PE fund will own it for 3-5 years and act as a board member(s) then exit. The most common exit is actually a sale to another PE fund or to a larger strategic company but yes an IPO is also a option depending on the company (SPACs are mostly gone). In terms of scenario 3, a situation like Red Lobster or Toys R Us is underwritten with the goal of a successful exit. It is true that a PE fund can juice returns by selling off real estate, but that is more of a feature, they still are hoping for this to be scenario 1 while having some way to limit downside risk with the assets the company owns. Every PE investment is just a lever on how much debt they can put on a business to get the highest return while still maximizing their chances of a favorable exit. There wouldn’t really ever be a situation where they are not using debt (unless you are including VC investing which is a lot riskier of a business because so many start-ups go bust).

If the PE Fund is the debt lender as you describe, they would be lending money to the college in the form of debt and get paid back in interest and principal repayment. They would actually have zero claim to the revenue here. Any profits would be shared by the equity holders and in this case the PE fund would be paid back as a fixed expense with no upside for any revenue growth.
So a ponzi scheme.

Somebody getting their mascot repossessed.

 
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So a ponzi scheme.


Yep. Accurate.

Golden Gate Capital bought something for $2.1 billion, immediately "juiced their returns" by selling $1.5 billion of real estate, and got the rest of their purchase money back by selling 25% of that real-estate-less something for $0.6 billion.

Then sold the majority stake a few years later. Pure profit on the sale of the other 75%, plus the 6 years of declining operating profits they were happy to pocket.

Good work, if you can find it.
 
Can't speak on the ND piece as i have not heard any smoke on them going to the BIG10 right now. I've heard they have spoken to the Big East for their other sports in the event the ACC collapses, but they are invested in the ACCs survival so think thats a last resort. They didn't pull all the strings they did to get Stanford and Cal (more so Stanford) a lifeline just to bail on them. Football will stay independent as long as NBC continues to grease the wheels and the new ND AD ensures that will continue for the foreseeable future.

What I can confirm is that ESPN and Fox are definitely talking. Joint media deals and ballooning rights negotiations have led many in those two companies to realize they can make more money working together than by killing one another. There is a reason that Fox did not bid on the CFP this round... Also ND staying independent benefits both Fox and ESPN versus creating a bidding war between the 2 to get ND in their prized flagship asset.
I don't believe ND is "invested" in the ACC. It was a compromise of convenience when THEY needed it. If FSU leaves the ACC it becomes a dramatically weaker conference and I do believe ND will bail preferring to have their other sports all playing in the Big 10 ... same neighborhood geographically "for the most part". It didn't cost them anything to help Cal / Stan get picked up.
 
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I don't believe ND is "invested" in the ACC. It was a compromise of convenience when THEY needed it. If FSU leaves the ACC it becomes a dramatically weaker conference and I do believe ND will bail preferring to have their other sports all playing in the Big 10 ... same neighborhood geographically "for the most part". It didn't cost them anything to help Cal / Stan get picked up.
ND doesn't want to join a conference in football. Having a 3rd and 4th conference compete with the P2, no matter how weak, helps ND maintain their independence. ND will not assist in destroying the ACC or Big12 when that would make their position as an independent more dubious. ND independence is better suited with a fractured CFB landscape vs a consolidated "NFL" style model which we seem hurling towards especially if the ACC were to collapse.
 
No, keep Utah off our schedule, period! 😎
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ND doesn't want to join a conference in football. Having a 3rd and 4th conference compete with the P2, no matter how weak, helps ND maintain their independence. ND will not assist in destroying the ACC or Big12 when that would make their position as an independent more dubious. ND independence is better suited with a fractured CFB landscape vs a consolidated "NFL" style model which we seem hurling towards especially if the ACC were to collapse.
That is your opinion. I disagree.
 
There are massive differences between the first two scenarios, and the third as well.

You are talking out of your *** with your "nearly 99%" statistic.

Thank you for quoting from your Finance textbook. The real world doesn't work that way. I ******* cracked up on "juice returns by selling off real estate". Hilarious. You must be a recent college graduate who still believes what your bosses tell him to believe.

Please tell me how Golden Gate Capital "juiced the returns" on its 2014 acquisition of Red Lobster by immediately selling off $1.5 billion of real estate on a $2.1 billion acquisiton, and then selling 25% of the company in 2016 to the Thai investors for $575 million. "Juiced returns". I'm still laughing. That means Golden Gate acquired 75% of Red Lobster for free. Those are some seriously "juiced returns".

Unless by "juiced returns", you mean to squeeze all the juice out and then leave the dried remains. Because THAT would be accurate.

You probably watched Wall Street and yelled "fake news" at Gordon Gekko.

Wow, someone is sensitive.

I dont think you understand half of what you are saying. Golden Gate Capital bought the company ran it for 5 years and then sold it off which is exactly what you described in scenario 1 (they sold to another investor rather than an IPO). In addition. they juiced their returns by selling the real estate assets (Another way to juice returns is to do a dividend recap by putting more debt on the business and issuing a special dividend to shareholders) Scenario 3 is just a feature of scenario 1. They still would have done alright on just the real estate, but they went into the investment with the hope of an eventual sale which they succeeded in doing. It was the next investor that was caught holding the bag because of covid. The playbook of any Private Equity firm is to buy an asset with as little of their own equity as possible, grow their equity through paying down the debt on the books and ultimately selling the asset after their equity has grown. The Gordon Gekko model of the 80s largely doesn't exist anymore and again is more of downside protection than a real strategy.

There is zero difference between the first two scenarios, again nearly every PE deal is done with debt. I am sure that the company that you work at had at least a little debt put on the books (at least equal to the amount of equity the PE fund invested, but highly likely more). The only time debt wouldn`t be used is if it''s a family office that is holding for the long term or a vc investment which is another asset class. Pure PE is nearly always done with debt.

How you described the structure for this college deal is not at all scenario 2. In Scenario 1, 2 or 3, the fund would be an equity investor and what you described is a credit fund which is a completely different type of fund and not at all related to scenario 2.
 
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ND will stay independent as long as humanly possible but they will join the b10 the moment it isn’t. They don’t give a **** about the acc even slightly and never have. The cucks running the conference have just never wanted to acknowledge it
 
Can't speak on the ND piece as i have not heard any smoke on them going to the BIG10 right now. I've heard they have spoken to the Big East for their other sports in the event the ACC collapses, but they are invested in the ACCs survival so think thats a last resort. They didn't pull all the strings they did to get Stanford and Cal (more so Stanford) a lifeline just to bail on them. Football will stay independent as long as NBC continues to grease the wheels and the new ND AD ensures that will continue for the foreseeable future.

What I can confirm is that ESPN and Fox are definitely talking. Joint media deals and ballooning rights negotiations have led many in those two companies to realize they can make more money working together than by killing one another. There is a reason that Fox did not bid on the CFP this round... Also ND staying independent benefits both Fox and ESPN versus creating a bidding war between the 2 to get ND in their prized flagship asset.
ND won’t join the B10 in football. I see them simply bailing from the ACC and doing a similar deal with the B10.
 
On what basis are you saying USF is "trash"?

While I also like GaTech, USF is a MUCH bigger school that would own its own media market. GaTech runs a distant second to UGa in Atlanta.

AAU membership, renewed commitment to spending and facilities (including on-campus stadium), and quite possibly the most populous Big 10 alum market outside of the current Big 10 footprint.

No basura.
The basis is that they are viewed ( for football ) as trash , there is a reason they’ve been passed over numerous times when all these conferences where expanding. USF brings the Tampa media market the same way Rutgers brought the New York/New Jersey one, meaning they don’t . No one is going to watch a USF vs Minnesota football game.
 
Wow, someone is sensitive.

I dont think you understand half of what you are saying. Golden Gate Capital bought the company ran it for 5 years and then sold it off which is exactly what you described in scenario 1 (they sold to another investor rather than an IPO). In addition. they juiced their returns by selling the real estate assets (Another way to juice returns is to do a dividend recap by putting more debt on the business and issuing a special dividend to shareholders) Scenario 3 is just a feature of scenario 1. They still would have done alright on just the real estate, but they went into the investment with the hope of an eventual sale which they succeeded in doing. It was the next investor that was caught holding the bag because of covid. The playbook of any Private Equity firm is to buy an asset with as little of their own equity as possible, grow their equity through paying down the debt on the books and ultimately selling the asset after their equity has grown. The Gordon Gekko model of the 80s largely doesn't exist anymore and again is more of downside protection than a real strategy.

There is zero difference between the first two scenarios, again nearly every PE deal is done with debt. I am sure that the company that you work at had at least a little debt put on the books (at least equal to the amount of equity the PE fund invested, but highly likely more). The only time debt wouldn`t be used is if it''s a family office that is holding for the long term or a vc investment which is another asset class. Pure PE is nearly always done with debt.

How you described the structure for this college deal is not at all scenario 2. In Scenario 1, 2 or 3, the fund would be an equity investor and what you described is a credit fund which is a completely different type of fund and not at all related to scenario 2.


You are absolutely full of it. And if you don't think there are any differences in your terrible examples, then try telling that to all of the people who are about to lose their jobs because Golden Gate asset-stripped the entire Red Lobster company, rather than "juicing their returns" by selling off certain strategic real estate investments.

Golden Gate didn't "buy the company and run it for five years". That's not what happened, showing how little you actually know. You want to blow through the timing differences, that's on you. Golden Gate acquired Red Lobster for 2.1 billion in May of 2014 and sold the real estate ONE MONTH LATER for 1.5 billion in June 2014. That is not "juicing returns", that is straight up Gekko-BlueStar Aviation playbook stuff. Golden Gate recouped the other 0.6 billion two years later by selling 25% to the Thai group. Stop acting like Golden Gate "ran" things. They asset-stripped Red Lobster and then propped up the dead body for 6 years like it was Bernie Lomax.

And stop blaming COVID. The Thai group didn't buy the rest of Red Lobster until August 2020. It's not like they bought it in January 2020.

As for your assumptions, no, my company did not have any debt injected into the company by the PE. That's just **** that you finance guys tell each other to sleep at night. That and "oh, they all pay down the debt before they flip the company". Hilarious. And, no, our PE group was not some "family office", they are very well-known. Just not as rapacious as some.

Keep spewing the party line on PE. They're just good-hearted folks who try to pay off debt, grow equity, and "juice returns", and none of the PE-owned companies ever go under. Sure.

I am 100% in favor of business operations. And all the finance bros can burn in ****, which I'm allowed to say because I was a Finance major. I believe in using one's education and power for good, not evil.
 
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