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Personally I say your tackles end up a wash (McKinnie over searcy but Sullivan over patchan). But I'd give Lu the nod in the interior
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All-Time Miami Hurricanes Draft - D$ selects Shakespeare/JL
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I don't think its even that close. You're OL is dominant, Lu.
Ethnicsands
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I think you're equating big and strong with dominant. And perhaps nfl potential > Um perforance. Whats interesting about this exchange is there isnt a common standard on this.
That said, IMO wise was the better center pick betweenyou and k9, and that maybe tips the balance.
However, i think the typical effort to look position groups here is not theway to go. Interiorline is very different from OTs depending on if you're lining up against DTs or DEs. Just as an example. The question shouldnt be what group looms like it has the best names on a list -- its what was being put together, and what match-ups are impacted by it.
One example. I made a choice to pair KWII with B. Franks in early picks, and then Hankerson as one wide out. People can yuk it up all they want over their guys, but with a NFL Hall of Fame Center, a Heisman QB, and those big guys, i should be able to field a quick hitting offense at can move the chains. I dont see who is going to easily match up with that. Add in a Hill and Hester who can stretch the field and a Gore /Bennett combo, and i feel like i hae a team that can score against the defenses we'll see in this grouping here. CB is a weakness that huge wide-outs with talent can exploit, and Otto helps neutralize a strength of some folks (DTs).
By contrast, on D, i invested in DEs, which are not a strength of UM, and which overmatch most OTs people can bring here, and also flexibility (can line up Hendricks as NFL Hall of Fame OLB or GOAT CFB DE), and can run solid 4-3 or 3-4 D with thhe guys i took. I took Edwards, who is the best NFL DE ever from UM, and was a No. 3 overall pick in the draft, and not far off a HOF career (had he played on better teams, could have made it) obviously have hendricks there, and also don smith, an inside-outside flex guy who was a first team AA and very solid NFLer.
Then at DB, its me and larry with the best safeties ever here. I wouldnt trade ST and DW for Reed/Blades but concede thats a matter of opinion. Personally, ive never seen a more dominant college defensive player at any position than ST, reed and blades included obviously. And i think on the elite collections these teams represent, the elite of the elite are really what stand out. Ray lewis, hendricks, reed and ST, amongst others. So you have two teams here that have safeties that will completely change the game for opposing offenses relative to eery other team. At CB, i viewed Owens as a S as he played there in the NFL, but he played CB in college. I wanted and found guys who played CB successfully in the NFL, and figured that together with those safeties would be enough for my pass rushers to break through. And no one is going to run on my line or probably anyone of the defenses here as a primary option.
Anyhow, i personally viewed the challenge as finding groups that could exploit the inevitable weaknesses and off-set the obvious strengths the draft would generate.
The unanswerable is results vs. potential and UM vs. NFL. Jimmy Graham could have fit my strategy too, but (a) compared to the proven abilities at UM and in the NFL of KWII and Franks, i didnt view him as comparable in this game. I get that he may end up there. Also, i loved Franks as a tougher TE, and KWII because he can legitimately split out. Just how i was looking at that combination.
Then of course theres field position. Hester is a unique guy here.
Finally, i wanted a bit of fun with two guys who are still at UM. If we're in the projection game here, in part, i will predict they end up in this conversation legitimately, and not at the margin of it.
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I'm not. I saw someone mention that k9's OLine was the best of the bunch because it was the "steadiest." I can understand somewhat if you're viewing these OLines solely from the standpoint of college years. Even then, there are A LOT of starts and some greatness mixed in there.
I was clear that I made ALL of my picks as some sort of balance between college production, NFL production, talent and overall fit with my plan (e.g. I was trying to make a 3-4 defense from jump). While my OLine is "big and strong," they're also just an incredibly talented bunch. The least talented guy, ironically, is Ty Wise, who was absolutely steady and a 1st team all-conference guy here.
Anyway, I asked because I thought it'd be a good conversation as to a comparison between OLines.
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Ethnicsands
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Im not sure we disagree. Interestingly, wise was the second best college guy on that line, IMO.
I do think you exploit the physicality distinction though, and am nsure how to grade your line as a result. OF and VC, particularly, were more potential than actual n college, IMO, but have the size and strength to be very solid in the league today. Its hard to know how to compare them to a m. Cooper, say, who was a second round pick and played well in the league, and was better at UM, IMO, and who was big enough to play in the nfl in the '80s, but who wont physically match up with OF and VC, who are big even by current nfl standards.
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Based on what? Size? Sure. But if you're talking about fundamentals, technique, pass/run block as effectively, consistency - it's K9's team.
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You guys are making it seem like guys like Carey and Franklin are just about "size." Fundamentals and technique couldn't keep Mercier, a master tactician and a guy I've always liked and appreciated, anywhere near the highest level in the game. At the same time, Vernon Carey (an All-American here and a 1st rounder) has started over 100 games in the NFL (mostly at Tackle, no less). Franklin is on his way to possible Pro Bowl selections and, barring injury, will spend the better part of the next decade in someone's NFL starting lineup. What's more, both of these guys are likely better suited to play inside, yet they're that talented to play outside in the NFL.
Richard Mercier himself would laugh his *** off at how this theoretical "consistency" makes him a better lineman than those guys. It's like saying Joaquin Gonzo is a "steadier" force than Vernon Carey...except at least Gonzo got to sniff the NFL a little longer.
Ethnicsands
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Its in between, IMO. McKinnie is the best on either team, and Wise > Garcia.
But Searcy is second best on eother team and Sullivan > Patchan. So wash at OT, maybe slight edge to K9. C tilts to Lu. At OG, that's the debate here. Size and power and potential vs. known production. mercier and blaise were good at UM and in the pros. I tilt to Lu because of Wise and McKinnie, but its closer than he thinks, at least the way i weight it.
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Ethnicsands
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Its in between, IMO. McKinnie is the best on either team, and Wise > Garcia.
But Searcy is second best on eother team and Sullivan > Patchan. So wash at OT, maybe edge to K9. C tilts to Lu. At OG, that's the debate here. Size and power and potential vs. known production. mercier and blaise were good at UM and in the pros. I tilt to Lu because of Wise and McKinnie, but its closer than he thinks, at least the way i weight it.
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I hear ya, and nobody is going to disagree with you. You are assigning more weight to the pros, clearly, and of course, if you do that your OL comes out on top. But from my descriptions and from college production, K9 gets the edge. It's all an opinion.
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Ha. Orlando started more games at Tackle in his first two months in the NFL than Blaise did his entire career. Please reference Richard Mercier's NFL career for me.
What is this known production stuff? Mercier was an All-American here. Carey was an All-American here. Then add in the NFL stuff. Carey and Franklin (barring injury) will combine for over 200 career NFL STARTS by the time their careers are over.
Let's just get this on record...
You guys would take a Guard tandem of Mercier/Blaise over Carey/Franklin?
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Ah. Well, if you're looking at it solely from a college standpoint, I can understand a little better.
Ethnicsands
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Based on college play, yes. Based on ability/potential and pro prospects, no.
Much as I've always liked his ablity, Franklin was a drive killer at UM. He had to be the most penalized guy on anyone's line here. At least that's how I remember him.
And if starts are the metric, the all time leader in starts at UM went undrafted.
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I got Dalton Botts if he hasn't been picked.
So how do we want to do the tournament? Papa Cane on Twitter has offered to help promote it, which I think will be a pretty cool situation. What do you fellas think?
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Ethnicsands
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Okay. I recall Blaise having a long career. I didn't re-research the careers of everyone drafted -- it was enough to try to cover guys I was able to take -- and I didn't get to draft those guys, so my recollection there may not be accurate.
I agree that OF and VC look ahead materially as far as NFL goes.
Heck, NFL ability was one of my big decision-criteria for my team, so I'm not disputing your view there. But if someone prioritizes UM performance, then Mercier/Blaise stack up better.
And to be honest, I just can't think about OF on a UM team without wincing at a flag being thrown. You'll need a better punter. (And don't try to throw your way out of third and long against me or Larry.)
Larry
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RE: Lu v. k9's offensive line...
Bryant McKinnie is one of the most dominant OT college football has seen...in the pros, he runs hot and cold like he's going through menopause...when he was playing next to Steve Hutchinson, he was a monster...at times...then he was a complete bum during other times. He was good for at least 8 sacks allowed a year as a pro.
IMO, Searcy (no Jaguar bias, I swear) was the more consistent and better overall pro. But, admittedly, he probably did not have the peak of McKinnie in college, but he was still A-level as a 'Cane, while McKinnie was A+. But, like I sez, Joe...Searcy, IMO, the more consistent pro and IMO a better pro career.
IMO, Sullivan > Patchan by a lot. Both as a collegiate, and Sullivan even played in the pros for a few years.
On the interior...this is where it gets interesting...Lu took two "tackles" that are probably best in at guard...if I'm evaluating talent...sounds great. On accomplishment alone...as collegiates...meh...Carey was a third team All-American in 03...he's been a good but never great pro...Mercier was a ridiculously decorated collegiate...never caught on the pros...but he's cream of the crop as a collegiate guard at Miami.
1-3, I'd probably give the nod to k9 head to head...Lu might squeak ahead because he's got a better remaining guard/center...I think Orlando Franklin is being a little overrated. As a collegiate...lots of meh...as a pro...promising, but he did give up 8 sacks for a team that ran the ball more than any team in the league last year, BUT, where he was very strong was in the run game, but he benefited from lining up next to Chris Kuper who is a stud and was probably the best run blocking guard in the league last year. But, regardless...Franklin is a better player than Blaise...Wise gets the nod ahead of Garcia.
It is a lot closer than Lu probably thinks it is, but that is my opinion...its close.
Bryant McKinnie is one of the most dominant OT college football has seen...in the pros, he runs hot and cold like he's going through menopause...when he was playing next to Steve Hutchinson, he was a monster...at times...then he was a complete bum during other times. He was good for at least 8 sacks allowed a year as a pro.
IMO, Searcy (no Jaguar bias, I swear) was the more consistent and better overall pro. But, admittedly, he probably did not have the peak of McKinnie in college, but he was still A-level as a 'Cane, while McKinnie was A+. But, like I sez, Joe...Searcy, IMO, the more consistent pro and IMO a better pro career.
IMO, Sullivan > Patchan by a lot. Both as a collegiate, and Sullivan even played in the pros for a few years.
On the interior...this is where it gets interesting...Lu took two "tackles" that are probably best in at guard...if I'm evaluating talent...sounds great. On accomplishment alone...as collegiates...meh...Carey was a third team All-American in 03...he's been a good but never great pro...Mercier was a ridiculously decorated collegiate...never caught on the pros...but he's cream of the crop as a collegiate guard at Miami.
1-3, I'd probably give the nod to k9 head to head...Lu might squeak ahead because he's got a better remaining guard/center...I think Orlando Franklin is being a little overrated. As a collegiate...lots of meh...as a pro...promising, but he did give up 8 sacks for a team that ran the ball more than any team in the league last year, BUT, where he was very strong was in the run game, but he benefited from lining up next to Chris Kuper who is a stud and was probably the best run blocking guard in the league last year. But, regardless...Franklin is a better player than Blaise...Wise gets the nod ahead of Garcia.
It is a lot closer than Lu probably thinks it is, but that is my opinion...its close.
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Larry
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Larry will be coming up with something for next week...
I want to let some debate rage here for a few days, then we'll start something...but its tough to have a tourney with six teams lol.
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