3rd down Offense and T.O.P

[NorthFlaCane]

biggest issues were our QB and our short yardage play selection

 

[sebastian91]

With the defensive issues the pathetic 3rd down offense and overall Time of Possession were equally if not more underwhelming given the talent and experience on that side of the ball.

Going into the season we all knew the offense was the strength of this team. A SR and Experienced QB and OL. Playmakers galore. Solid WR in Hurns and electrifying freshman in Coley.
This is the unit that needed to carry the team and they didn't

3rd down conversion offense ranked 87th nationally at 38% and TOP was 118 at 25 minutes per game.
Had we averaged a higher 3rd down conversion rate like this offense was capable of doing our TOP would have been around 30 minutes per game.
That's 5 minutes less our defense would have had to be on the field on average.
We gave up like 12 yards per minute. Get back those 5 minutes and that's a difference of 60-65 yards bringing our total yards per game on defense around 355 yards which would have been good for top 35 in the nation.
Don't get me wrong, the defensive issues would still have existed but overall we would have controlled the games more through our offense like they were capable of doing.

CaneAlmighty just gets it.

 

[Pennmed Canefan]

We weren't likely to be that great in these two areas. We choose to run a fast-paced offense and we generally score quickly. Prolonged drives are not our strength. By contrast, our defense can't get off the field. Thus, we expect low TOP unless we were to alter our offensive strategy. We choose not to. With respect to third down, Morris' weakness as a qb is throwing into coverage. Teams that can get us to 3rd and long give us problems when they force him to throw into coverage. None of that is new. We're the same as we were last year in 3rd down conversions. I agree that the strength of the team should've been it's O (obviously), but I wouldn't have expected us to be good here.

In the bigger picture, if we step back a few years, the offense could've been in the same position as the defense. When Golden came here, these offensive guys weren't stalwarts. Entering last year Morris was a new qb who had shown some promise but was error-prone and hardly a known--7TD and 11int career. Hurns had played some, Dorsett was a complete nonfactor. Duke was new, Waters was new. The line had a few guys who had played at least. The gist of this is that the offense could easily have gone the way of the defense but it didn't--Fisch developed these guys very quickly. By contrast, the guys on the defensive side have not developed at all. There's no reason that this team just had to become so heavily directed toward offense from 2011 through now. It just became that way because that side developed better.

 

[DeadPoets]

TOP being 118th has MUCH more to do with D'Onofrio's incompetence than it does the offense.
We were probably near the bottom in TOP last year too - but our offense scored a lot of points and Morris set records.

In fact Jedd Fisch & Golden made it a point to hurry-up & strike quick.

 

[DaU83]

TOP is a pretty overrated stat, that said, the defense has to get off the field and give the offense the ball.

 

[CaneAlmighty]

TOP is a pretty overrated stat, that said, the defense has to get off the field and give the offense the ball.

The defense caused 27 Turnovers and gave the offense the ball back. That was top 10 nationally and more then Bama, OSU, UL and tied with the vaunted Michigan State defense. They also scored points.
And if the offense wanted the ball more they should have kept it when they had it by converting on 3rds downs.

But I'd like your take on why TOP is overrated.

 

[CaneAlmighty]

There's no reason that this team just had to become so heavily directed toward offense from 2011 through now. It just became that way because that side developed better.

Actually the reason is because that sideof the ball had the better talent and experience when Golden came in through now with the addition of game breakers like Duke and Coley.
Not sure you realize how devoid of talented players and experience the defense had compared to the offense since Al took over.

 

[je77]

Would like to see someone do a TOP analysis of time/play and compare to teams around the country. Considering our coaching staff has repeatedly said that our defense is on the field too much, our offense snapped the ball with 25 seconds left on the play clock way too often. Even when were up a couple touchdowns in the 4th quarter against Pitt, it took a while to make an adjustment to huddle and run the play clock down. My guess is that part of the reason that our TOP is so poor is that we use less time per play than most teams.

 

[sebastian91]

There's no reason that this team just had to become so heavily directed toward offense from 2011 through now. It just became that way because that side developed better.

Actually the reason is because that sideof the ball had the better talent and experience when Golden came in through now with the addition of game breakers like Duke and Coley.
Not sure you realize how devoid of talented players and experience the defense had compared to the offense since Al took over.

You beat me to it. The talent level on offense is far better than the defense. The one thing Randy did leave AG with is some decent OLinemen. On paper, this OL should have dominated the LOS against every opponent we played, with perhaps the UF.ag DL as the only exception. As we saw against UNC, they were able to do just that on occasion, but they were inconsistent, as was Morris. The defense was godawful...no argument there...and they couldn't get off the field in the 2nd half of the season. That said, the offense did them few favors by not sustaining drives, turning the ball over, and being awful on 3rd down (converted only 33% on 3rd down in the last 4 games).

 

[Mico Jones]

A bigger problem is the fact that we continue to allow teams to convert easy first downs on this bend but break defense. I literally wanted to throw a brick at No D Ofrio when I watched from the stands as Wake Forest dink and dunked their way to lengthy drives one lasting six minutes to the point that the second quarter had started and our offense had only one possession all game. On the Flipside to Mr.Op imagine how many points a game we would of scored if we actually got off the field on third down

 

[sebastian91]

A bigger problem is the fact that we continue to allow teams to convert easy first downs on this bend but break defense. I literally wanted to throw a brick at No D Ofrio when I watched from the stands as Wake Forest dink and dunked their way to lengthy drives one lasting six minutes to the point that the second quarter had started and our offense had only one possession all game. On the Flipside to Mr.Op imagine how many points a game we would of scored if we actually got off the field on third down

And what did the offense do with that one possession??? I'll save you the trouble of looking it up...they went 3 and out and held the ball for 1:38, which put the defense right back on the field after they were on the field for 8:34.

Look, no one will argue that defense didn't suck. But if you think the offense was doing much to help them out, you're mistaken.

 

[Pennmed Canefan]

There's no reason that this team just had to become so heavily directed toward offense from 2011 through now. It just became that way because that side developed better.

Actually the reason is because that sideof the ball had the better talent and experience when Golden came in through now with the addition of game breakers like Duke and Coley.
Not sure you realize how devoid of talented players and experience the defense had compared to the offense since Al took over.

You beat me to it. The talent level on offense is far better than the defense. The one thing Randy did leave AG with is some decent OLinemen. On paper, this OL should have dominated the LOS against every opponent we played, with perhaps the UF.ag DL as the only exception. As we saw against UNC, they were able to do just that on occasion, but they were inconsistent, as was Morris. The defense was godawful...no argument there...and they couldn't get off the field in the 2nd half of the season. That said, the offense did them few favors by not sustaining drives, turning the ball over, and being awful on 3rd down (converted only 33% on 3rd down in the last 4 games).

Uh huh. So let's see...what were the guys who are currently running our offense doing when 2012 started?

Morris--OK game here or there, 7td and 11 int career
Duke--freshman
Crawford/Gus--non-existent
Dorsett--about 10 catches career
Waters--freshman
Coley--high school
Walford--who knows
Flowers--high school
Bunche--had played
McDermott/Wheeler--nonfactors
Linder--had played
Feliciano--nonfactor
Henderson--had played

So a couple guys had played. The point is that all this "talent" you appreciate on the offensive side of the ball had done nothing at the beginning of last year. Our offense had every opportunity to become REALLY bad like our defense. But we've recruited a bit better on that side (I suppose) and more importantly those guys have been coached into some success. Defensively we could've become better than we are with a bit better recruiting and (more importantly) some better player development (within the system of course). Can anybody imagine what this team would look like if we did *not* have the ability to routinely hang 35-40 points on the middling teams on our schedule? We'd probably win 2-3 games. At the beginning of 2012 there is no reason why this offense had to become good--it could've become the defense with poor coaching and I imagine you'd probably be sitting here lamenting the lack of talent on that side as well.

 

[sebastian91]

Who's talking about 2012? Going into 2013, which is what I'm talking about, the OL was experienced, highly recruited, and huge. The QB was a senior with more than a full season of starts under his belt. Duke was on seemingly every All-American list and coming off a freshman year where he rushed for almost 1000 yards and had double-digit TDs. The WR were experienced and talented, with Coley waiting in the wings. Fisch did a good job developing those guys, too, but he also had a helluva lot more to work with...most importantly, he had a potentially dominant OL to lay the foundation. The defense had no depth at any position and marginal talent at best, ESPECIALLY on the DL. If you can't control the LOS, the rest will quickly fall apart, and it did.

 

[je77]

Would like to see someone do a TOP analysis of time/play and compare to teams around the country. Considering our coaching staff has repeatedly said that our defense is on the field too much, our offense snapped the ball with 25 seconds left on the play clock way too often. Even when were up a couple touchdowns in the 4th quarter against Pitt, it took a while to make an adjustment to huddle and run the play clock down. My guess is that part of the reason that our TOP is so poor is that we use less time per play than most teams.

Did a little math using numbers from cfbstats.com:

Our average time of possession was 26:21 (1581 seconds). Mutiplied by 12 games = 18,972 seconds, divided by 765 offensive plays = 24.8 seconds/play

Our opponents TOP was 33:38 (2018 seconds). Multiplied by 12 games = 24,216 seconds, divided by 888 offensive plays = 27.3 seconds/play

We averaged 64 offensive plays per game. To simplify the numbers using 60, our 60 plays use 24:48. Our opponents 60 plays use 27:18.

If we want to protect our defense and keep them off the field, perhaps we should just use more clock on each play. Over the course of a game, we could add almost 3 minutes to our TOP, taking 3 minutes away from our opponents for a net 6 minute swing.

 

[sebastian91]

Would like to see someone do a TOP analysis of time/play and compare to teams around the country. Considering our coaching staff has repeatedly said that our defense is on the field too much, our offense snapped the ball with 25 seconds left on the play clock way too often. Even when were up a couple touchdowns in the 4th quarter against Pitt, it took a while to make an adjustment to huddle and run the play clock down. My guess is that part of the reason that our TOP is so poor is that we use less time per play than most teams.

Did a little math using numbers from cfbstats.com:

Our average time of possession was 26:21 (1581 seconds). Mutiplied by 12 games = 18,972 seconds, divided by 765 offensive plays = 24.8 seconds/play

Our opponents TOP was 33:38 (2018 seconds). Multiplied by 12 games = 24,216 seconds, divided by 888 offensive plays = 27.3 seconds/play

We averaged 64 offensive plays per game. To simplify the numbers using 60, our 60 plays use 24:48. Our opponents 60 plays use 27:18.

If we want to protect our defense and keep them off the field, perhaps we should just use more clock on each play. Over the course of a game, we could add almost 3 minutes to our TOP, taking 3 minutes away from our opponents for a net 6 minute swing.

Good work. However, I do understand the desire to operate in a hurry up offense at times when mismatches can be exploited. I don't have a problem with that really. The more effective way, IMO, to keep our defense off the field is to move the chains more often.

 

[zone3cane]

Point taken and understood, but it is hard to quibble with an offense that averaged 32 points a game (Sav St not included).

that's like *****ing about the D when we won 9 games...

actually it's not

 

[Mico Jones]

A bigger problem is the fact that we continue to allow teams to convert easy first downs on this bend but break defense. I literally wanted to throw a brick at No D Ofrio when I watched from the stands as Wake Forest dink and dunked their way to lengthy drives one lasting six minutes to the point that the second quarter had started and our offense had only one possession all game. On the Flipside to Mr.Op imagine how many points a game we would of scored if we actually got off the field on third down

And what did the offense do with that one possession??? I'll save you the trouble of looking it up...they went 3 and out and held the ball for 1:38, which put the defense right back on the field after they were on the field for 8:34.

Look, no one will argue that defense didn't suck. But if you think the offense was doing much to help them out, you're mistaken.

You do realize that offenses do sometimes go 3 and out and that shouldn't mean that they have to wait an entire quarter for their next opportunity.

Sorry pal, but I think averaging 32 points a game in ACC play is plenty enough to help the defense out.

Interesting how some here have parroted No D Ofrio's philosophy that scoring defense is all that matters yet these same people don't apply the same principle to the offense.

 

[sebastian91]

A bigger problem is the fact that we continue to allow teams to convert easy first downs on this bend but break defense. I literally wanted to throw a brick at No D Ofrio when I watched from the stands as Wake Forest dink and dunked their way to lengthy drives one lasting six minutes to the point that the second quarter had started and our offense had only one possession all game. On the Flipside to Mr.Op imagine how many points a game we would of scored if we actually got off the field on third down

And what did the offense do with that one possession??? I'll save you the trouble of looking it up...they went 3 and out and held the ball for 1:38, which put the defense right back on the field after they were on the field for 8:34.

Look, no one will argue that defense didn't suck. But if you think the offense was doing much to help them out, you're mistaken.

You do realize that offenses do sometimes go 3 and out and that shouldn't mean that they have to wait an entire quarter for their next opportunity.

Sorry pal, but I think averaging 32 points a game in ACC play is plenty enough to help the defense out.

Interesting how some here have parroted No D Ofrio's philosophy that scoring defense is all that matters yet these same people don't apply the same principle to the offense.

"Some people" isn't me. And sorry pal, but the offense didn't score all of those points. Take away the TDs scored on special teams and defense, and the average in ACC play is less than 27. None of that changes the fact that the offense was converting only 1/3 of their 3rd downs in the last 4 games, and were only doing marginally better than that in the previous 4 ACC games. Anyway, I'm not going to convince you of anything, and I think you're full of *****, too. The defense still sucks, and the offense didn't do much to help them out. Just the way it is...

 

[Mico Jones]

A bigger problem is the fact that we continue to allow teams to convert easy first downs on this bend but break defense. I literally wanted to throw a brick at No D Ofrio when I watched from the stands as Wake Forest dink and dunked their way to lengthy drives one lasting six minutes to the point that the second quarter had started and our offense had only one possession all game. On the Flipside to Mr.Op imagine how many points a game we would of scored if we actually got off the field on third down

And what did the offense do with that one possession??? I'll save you the trouble of looking it up...they went 3 and out and held the ball for 1:38, which put the defense right back on the field after they were on the field for 8:34.

Look, no one will argue that defense didn't suck. But if you think the offense was doing much to help them out, you're mistaken.

You do realize that offenses do sometimes go 3 and out and that shouldn't mean that they have to wait an entire quarter for their next opportunity.

Sorry pal, but I think averaging 32 points a game in ACC play is plenty enough to help the defense out.

Interesting how some here have parroted No D Ofrio's philosophy that scoring defense is all that matters yet these same people don't apply the same principle to the offense.

"Some people" isn't me. And sorry pal, but the offense didn't score all of those points. Take away the TDs scored on special teams and defense, and the average in ACC play is less than 27. None of that changes the fact that the offense was converting only 1/3 of their 3rd downs in the last 4 games, and were only doing marginally better than that in the previous 4 ACC games. Anyway, I'm not going to convince you of anything, and I think you're full of *****, too. The defense still sucks, and the offense didn't do much to help them out. Just the way it is...

28.6 to be exact after subtraction of 1 special teams and 2 int tds. As opposed to the 32.75 given up.

"None of that changes the fact that the offense was converting only 1/3 of their 3rd downs in the last 4 games, and were only doing marginally better than that in the previous 4 ACC games"

And none of that changes the fact that this is the least of the issues this year especially with Morris's limitations, Losing your best RB in Duke & your best WR in Dorsett plus breaking in a brand new O coordinator. You do realize that our 3rd down percentage for the 4 ACC games before Duke's injury was .435 and the 4 after was .326.

lmao. You are a massive douchebag.

I'm sure the Duke loss had nothing to do with the 350 plus rushing yards given up but instead it was all the 3 and outs that prevented us from winning.

So the offense is feast or famine.

The defense is just famine. And anyone like you who tries to divert attention and toss blame on anything but the defense and the d coordinator are the ones who are full of *****.

 

[L A M P]

And none of that changes the fact that this is the least of the issues this year. So the offense is feast or famine. The defense is just famine. And anyone like you who tries to divert attention and toss blame on anything but the defense and the d coordinator are the ones who are full of *****.

You are very foolish if you think that is the least of our issues... While it might not be 1a & 1b, it is easily 1 & 2... with turnovers on offense being 3rd. Yes the defense is dreadful. Just bc we point out other areas we struggle in doesn't mean we are covering for them. Dorito needs to go. The scheme needs to change. Nobody is arguing any different. The OP was just pointing out another area that needs improvement. (which in a team sport directly affects the other side of the ball, See: Issac Newton) We all want to compete for NC's.. but we have lots of work to do on both sides of the ball before getting anywhere near that level. Consistency is key.