What's Golden's vision for this defense?

Lu, do you believe golden has a passive philosophy on defense or football in general or are some of us wrong in thinking that?

I think that's what the evidence shows. I have no idea what is the precise rationale for choosing to play that way. I think it's speculation either way. Maybe that's what his coaching roots dictate? Maybe he doesn't fully trust the talent on the roster yet? Maybe he thinks this style currently gives him the best chance to win? I think it could be a combination of all of those things. I also think some of those are inherently flawed either way.

What I know for sure is the guy is clearly obsessed with planning. The guy, as Able said, is a defensive coach. There's also evidence that the guy is a tireless worker and wants to win. It's a completely different situation than, say, Coker or Shannon or even other, more successful, coaches. Ask Able. What has always scared me about Golden or any coach is rigidity. I have a hard time reconciling that with him appearing to be a practical guy.

Without speaking to him, the coaches, etc., directly, all we can do is throw **** at the wall trying to explain his decisions. I will say one thing (that I've said in other threads): not all coaches or organizations have sharp processes or make decisions with elaborate analysis. I always say the story to illustrate this point, but when I sat in front of a former NFL Operations guy (who had been previously successful and was working with a legitimate football mind) and he explained that they selected a player because of "weather factors," I realized all these guys are just humans throwing darts. Some with more precision than others. Some with less. Some, like our previous coaches, without even looking at the dart board.

I hear what you are saying, but ANY coach, to some extent, is going to go with what he has had success with, and he also has to play the hand he is dealt. AG inherited a SH*T show here. DL was nothing but JAGs with NOTHING in the pipeline. Shannon's recruiting when he got canned was attrocious, and the half @ss class AG was able to slap together was mostly garbage. Lets face it. He's really in year 2 of "his guys". I dont think he trusts the talent, and frankly, would you? There is almost NO senior leadership on this defense. DP is a good dude, but he's not Vilma. He's a very good LB, but he's not "elite" like we've had before. Ive been saying this all year. We have some real young talent in the secondary, and at DE, but beyond that, we are WAY thin. AG's comment the other night, which everyone dismissed as more "excuses" really DID tell the tale of this defense IMO.

Think about HOW MANY JUCOs and Transfers they went after for this Defense in the off season. Bond, Derosier, Renfrow, Gilbert, the OSU kid who also bolted. FIVE guys they went out and tried to bring in here at the 11th hour. That is how BAD or mismatched the personnel are from what they feel they need.

Im NOT saying AG may not be conservative, or have conservative tendencies. He played under Jo Pa. But there is also nothing to say that such a system cant work here to some extent. But you need to execute your scheme well, and you need the personnel to make it happen. Its not clear we have EITHER thing in place, and that is a BIG problem.

But we really dont know what we have yet. If you told me this team was loaded just the way he wanted it, and he was still playing conservative, well then I would say we can probably feel confidenet we know his tenancies. But with what he inherited here, and what his off seasons moves tell us about how he feels about the talent and depth on Defense, I dont think we can make any real conclusions about it. And MAYBE, just maybe, its worse than any of us could have imagined.



This is going to come off as excuse-making, but Golden is a pretty straight shooter, and he said that he was surprised that several aspects of the program were similar to Temple when he first got there.

I think Golden has confidence in what he's trying to build on defense. It's either going to eventually work, or it isn't. I think dramatically changing his philosophy would be a very troubling sign. Lu calls it rigidity and perhaps it is, but at some point there has to be a bedrock philosophy you believe in.

Bottom line: Golden has to find a way to get the defense fixed. Saying you're going to get it fixed only works for so long.

Our bedrock philosophy right now is to win by making less mistakes than our opponent.
I think that is what frustrates most fans more than anything. To me and I'm sure to others that's a passive philosophy. Golden is basically declining to take it to the other team. He's merely waiting on that team to make a mistake. IMO, thats a UVA, Temple mentality. 2 programs that don't aspire to win it all. So you implement that defense in hopes of eeking out a win or two more than you would have.

The problem comes when you run into a buzzsaw like the FSU game. Elite QB with athletes that can match Miami's athletes. So you sit and you wait and wait and wait and that mistake never really materializes to result in a winn. You're not going to beat an Alabama or an LSU or a current FSU that way.

Basically the problem I have is the passivity. I don't think you win it all being passive. You're not going to win in a playoff system hoping the other team makes mistakes. They are in that playoff because they don't make those kinds of mistakes too often. But when they do, it should be your defense that is forcing them into those mistakes rather than relying on the law of averages.

I do not believe that philosophy stems from the lack of talent on this team. I believe it is inherent in Golden, in Donofrio, and probably in Al Groh whom taught it to them. I believe passivity is in Golden's DNA, hence the softening of our schedule as well as his defensive philosophy. I don't think we need to wait to figure out why he chooses this scheme. Its who he is, he believes he is out thinking the other coaches when he puts the onus on them to not make a mistake. To me its just a sissified way of playing football IMO.
 
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Our bedrock philosophy right now is to win by making less mistakes than our opponent.


That's probably true. Golden has said before (paraphrasing) that you win by eliminating the things that cause you to lose.

I think people want more savagery than that, but it is what it is at this point. One of three things will happen:

1. He'll change his philosophy (either due to improved talent or a new perspective).
2. His current philosophy will work, and we'll become contenders.
3. His current philosophy won't work.


Frustrating as it is, we'll just have to wait and see.

Exactly. I think what AG is trying to do here is build a "system". From the ground up. Its not the high flying hot sh*t flash that Saban has at Bama, or Meyer had at UF, but rather a stable, fundemental foundation, more akin to what Beamer has done at VT, but with better athletes. Lets face it, if AG can develop a Beamer like program here, with the talent we can bring in, it should be enough to make this a consistent top 10 team that wil be competing for MNCs. The PROBLEM, is that to build something like that takes TIME, and patience, something most college coaches dont have, because fans dont have the latter. Everyone wants to win NOW. And that's great. I do too. But some programs can go out and buy their success, by dropping 10 million dollars on their coaching staff, and having boosters doing whatever it takes to make sure they get the best players they want. UM doesnt have that luxury. Miami fans want Alabama type success, on a VT budget, and with an alumni base the size of Vanderbilt.

Its not impossible, but its getting harder to do. I dont think people fully appreciate how tough it is for a small private school to compete with this goliath size programs. The only other private schools still competing at this level are ND and USC, both of which are MUCH bigger.

If this isn't the most honest, take a look in the ****ing mirror, post of the week I don't know what is. Everyone needs to take a ****ing chill pill and embrace reality.

I'm with you guys on that angle. Actually, my feelings haven't changed from before the game and from the threads last week. I guess that's somewhat sad, but it's reality. If you look through my posts before and after the game, you'll just find the same questions and concerns. I was hoping we'd win that game because I wanted to see a distinction from last season. A win wasn't going to prove anything more than that, so I don't think a loss should either.

Lu, I think the main factor this week, is the WAY we lost, more than losing itself. Like it's be reiterated, if we said 7-2 at this point at the beginning of the year, most of us would take it.

Thanks for a decent discussion guys...refreshing. While I am a big Shayon Green fan as a man and a fighter, the talent coming in far surpasses what he brings to the table. Sure it's gonna take a minute to stock the shelves, but reinforcements are on the way in BIG numbers. I think Al has done a masterful job guiding this ship through the fog, and it's beginning to clear. Nutrition, accountability, transparency (video outlets), and being straight up with recruits regarding their futures. Stand up dude who I support as a man and a coach.

I like CanesAreAbles defensive line up, and I hope that Howard/ Bush/ Jenkins are still here then. Closing this class strong in the secondary is key, especially with Ariz not sold on Turner or maybe even Gray winding up here. With all the gems we're bringing in here I really hope it doesn't go to waste.
 
can we get some intelligent posters on the board to email coaches about this? maybe they will answer.
 
I wholeheartedly agree with NVA's post.

What good is having all this elite talent and athletes if we're only going to release them on 3rd and long?
 
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Al Golden's vision for this defense is to prove a point that talent making plays isnt important, "my philosophy is so perfect that if the defense looks terrible, it's b/c of the players."

That's why they have little Tyrone Cornelius starting at strong side LB in a "3-4"..... yeah that's going to work. Is that really the best combination of starting LBs this team could field..... NO.

That's why they have Shayon Green playing some version of a 9 tech, hybrid "OLB" running w/ his back turned to get 10-15 yards up the field against a bubble screen. someone explain why Shayon Green is playing this retarded version of a "9 tech" position instead of McCord and AQM?

That's why they have AJ Highwhiff all over the field missing tackles and looking ridiculous b/c he's "always in the right spot, no mental errors".... explain why he even gets reps outside of STs.

This board has come up w/ so many ideas of what this defense is going to look like and it hasnt been close, honestly the things brought up on this board from LuCane, Wildcat, and others regarding the possibilities for this defense have been more creative and interesting then what D'onofrio has put on the field since he's been here.
 
Depth chart 2014 with incoming recruits

DE Chick - Kamalu...Thomas
DT Moore - King...Wyche
DE Pierre - Hamilton...Stuckey

OLB McCord - Figueroa...Smith
ILB Perryman - Grace...Young
ILB Kirby - Blue...McCray
OLB Muhammad - Armbrister...Harris

CB Gunter - Burns - Dortch...Bethel
SS Bush - Fentress...Gray
FS Jenkins - Carter...Owens
CB Howard - Crawford - Elder...Mays
 
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Rok, those are all Golden guys. That squad will be a strong indicator for future defensive success.
 
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Depth chart 2014 with incoming recruits

DE Chick - Kamalu...Thomas
DT Moore - King...Wyche
DE Pierre - Hamilton...Stuckey

OLB McCord - Figueroa...Smith
ILB Perryman - Grace...Young
ILB Kirby - Blue...McCray
OLB Muhammad - Armbrister...Harris

CB Gunter - Burns - Dortch...Bethel
SS Bush - Fentress...Gray
FS Jenkins - Carter...Owens
CB Howard - Crawford - Elder...Mays

The middle of this defense-all I'm seeing is crossing routes going unchecked.
 
What's gonna happen next year is there will be improvement just from that lineup rok posted. Then we are gonna run into a couple teams that have solid QBs like fsu with Winston and the defense will get exposed and we will be right back to square one. We will be back here ****ed off that our defense got shredded. I don't doubt that the defense will improve next year, it's only logical since we keep elevating our talent. But it doesn't mean we aren't going to get exposed for the soft defense that we like to play.
 
Depth chart 2014 with incoming recruits

DE Chick - Kamalu...Thomas
DT Moore - King...Wyche
DE Pierre - Hamilton...Stuckey

OLB McCord - Figueroa...Smith
ILB Perryman - Grace...Young
ILB Kirby - Blue...McCray
OLB Muhammad - Armbrister...Harris

CB Gunter - Burns - Dortch...Bethel
SS Bush - Fentress...Gray
FS Jenkins - Carter...Owens
CB Howard - Crawford - Elder...Mays

The middle of this defense-all I'm seeing is crossing routes going unchecked.

That's very fixable. It's not like those crossing routes are being completed because we're forced to recruit retards. Something is obviously wrong, but whatever it is can and likely will get fixed.
 
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Depth chart 2014 with incoming recruits

DE Chick - Kamalu...Thomas
DT Moore - King...Wyche
DE Pierre - Hamilton...Stuckey

OLB McCord - Figueroa...Smith
ILB Perryman - Grace...Young
ILB Kirby - Blue...McCray
OLB Muhammad - Armbrister...Harris

CB Gunter - Burns - Dortch...Bethel
SS Bush - Fentress...Gray
FS Jenkins - Carter...Owens
CB Howard - Crawford - Elder...Mays

Owens is a LB. Stuckey is a NT if he makes it.
 
Depth chart 2014 with incoming recruits

DE Chick - Kamalu...Thomas
DT Moore - King...Wyche
DE Pierre - Hamilton...Stuckey

OLB McCord - Figueroa...Smith
ILB Perryman - Grace...Young
ILB Kirby - Blue...McCray
OLB Muhammad - Armbrister...Harris

CB Gunter - Burns - Dortch...Bethel
SS Bush - Fentress...Gray
FS Jenkins - Carter...Owens
CB Howard - Crawford - Elder...Mays

Owens is a LB. Stuckey is a NT if he makes it.

And you know these things for a fact?
 
Depth chart 2014 with incoming recruits

DE Chick - Kamalu...Thomas
DT Moore - King...Wyche
DE Pierre - Hamilton...Stuckey

OLB McCord - Figueroa...Smith
ILB Perryman - Grace...Young
ILB Kirby - Blue...McCray
OLB Muhammad - Armbrister...Harris

CB Gunter - Burns - Dortch...Bethel
SS Bush - Fentress...Gray
FS Jenkins - Carter...Owens
CB Howard - Crawford - Elder...Mays

If Wyche and Stuckey aren't playing major minutes or aren't as good as advertised, this DL will be just as bad as this year's.
 
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Depth chart 2014 with incoming recruits

DE Chick - Kamalu...Thomas
DT Moore - King...Wyche
DE Pierre - Hamilton...Stuckey

OLB McCord - Figueroa...Smith
ILB Perryman - Grace...Young
ILB Kirby - Blue...McCray
OLB Muhammad - Armbrister...Harris

CB Gunter - Burns - Dortch...Bethel
SS Bush - Fentress...Gray
FS Jenkins - Carter...Owens
CB Howard - Crawford - Elder...Mays

The middle of this defense-all I'm seeing is crossing routes going unchecked.

That's very fixable. It's not like those crossing routes are being completed because we're forced to recruit retards. Something is obviously wrong, but whatever it is can and likely will get fixed.
Hasn't been fixed in three years. What makes you think it'll change?
 
Depth chart 2014 with incoming recruits

DE Chick - Kamalu...Thomas
DT Moore - King...Wyche
DE Pierre - Hamilton...Stuckey

OLB McCord - Figueroa...Smith
ILB Perryman - Grace...Young
ILB Kirby - Blue...McCray
OLB Muhammad - Armbrister...Harris

CB Gunter - Burns - Dortch...Bethel
SS Bush - Fentress...Gray
FS Jenkins - Carter...Owens
CB Howard - Crawford - Elder...Mays

The middle of this defense-all I'm seeing is crossing routes going unchecked.

That's very fixable. It's not like those crossing routes are being completed because we're forced to recruit retards. Something is obviously wrong, but whatever it is can and likely will get fixed.
Hasn't been fixed in three years. What makes you think it'll change?

Less AJ Highsmith, Cornelius, Gaines, Shayon

More Deon Bush, McCord, AQM, Figueroa, Chad Thomas
 
I don't WANT to be that guy but...

what does it matter if we're employing the worst scheme ever witnessed?


Because I don't think it's the scheme. I think it's the implementation of the scheme.

Besides, I'm trying to get at what Golden's ideal is for this defense.

potato potahto

tomato tomahto

bottom line is the coaching staff on defense is awful and completely lost.

that lineup that Able posted LOOKS like a really good group. problem is that with D'No and AGs "scheme" or "implementation" or whatever the **** you want to call it, the defense will still suck
 
Depth chart 2014 with incoming recruits

DE Chick - Kamalu...Thomas
DT Moore - King...Wyche
DE Pierre - Hamilton...Stuckey

OLB McCord - Figueroa...Smith
ILB Perryman - Grace...Young
ILB Kirby - Blue...McCray
OLB Muhammad - Armbrister...Harris

CB Gunter - Burns - Dortch...Bethel
SS Bush - Fentress...Gray
FS Jenkins - Carter...Owens
CB Howard - Crawford - Elder...Mays

The middle of this defense-all I'm seeing is crossing routes going unchecked.

That's very fixable. It's not like those crossing routes are being completed because we're forced to recruit retards. Something is obviously wrong, but whatever it is can and likely will get fixed.
Hasn't been fixed in three years. What makes you think it'll change?

Less AJ Highsmith, Cornelius, Gaines, Shayon

More Deon Bush, McCord, AQM, Figueroa, Chad Thomas

Are you bipolar?
 
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