Serious question regarding turning this program around.

One thing I've realized is that any historical comparisons are now going to be inaccurate. I can't judge Golden in relation to Butch only; I can just judge Golden on what I see and within the context of the situation he came into.

I think the question gets misframed a lot though. The question I ask myself is whether Golden will be able to win a national title when the team is loaded with talent, and whether he will be able to load the team with talent. If he can't load the team with talent or win a national title, then he ain't the guy.

I'm not sure if Golden can load this team with talent. He's going to have to win soon, like, next year. We are going to need to become a recruiting powerhouse and have top 5 classes every year. Golden has proven he has a good eye for talent, but are these guys going to continue improving? Since 2004, we've seen a LOT of players who have solid freshman seasons, solid sophomore seasons, and then that's it. They never become an all-american game changer. For us to get back, that has to change. Eddie Johnson has to become a beast. Duke has to become a Heisman contender. Deon Bush has to become a first round pick and not Anthony Reddick.


I also think Fisch sucks. Golden preached about how we'd have a tough, physical team, but we are FAR from it. In fact we are very soft. that is probably my biggest complain with Golden so far. This team is soft. And being soft doesn't come just from talent, it comes from attitude. Our attitude on offense sucks. I'll never approve of throwing the ball like we do and I don't think we'll ever win big doing that. It's a bull**** offense and since Golden hired him, Golden needs to get fisch straight and dictate to the entire coaching staff the type of team this needs to be.


So basically, the jury is out. I think the mental make up of the team has a lot of changing to do but I see signs it can happen. But If Golden doesn't start really winning next year, I doubt he ever will. We'll never be able to recruit like we need to. It'll be too far gone.

I just don't know. But there's a lot of things that could be better right now and aren't, and Butch doesn't change that.


Agree.

I'm not ready to ****-can Fisch (although I wouldn't cry if he bounced), but our offensive philosophy (if there is one) is VERY disconcerting.

Last year he showed me something. I thought the plan was to be a physical running team and play action off of that. The perfect blueprint for the team was last year's Virginia Tech game. We bludgeoned them on the ground, mixed in some play action, some deep passes, and some trick plays.

I thought we'd see more of that.

Instead we're the New England Patriots without an elite QB as the triggerman. I don't get it.

As I've mentioned before, I really think Fisch overestimated what he had in Stephen Morris. Why else would we go hurry-up and ask him to sling it 40+ times a game? One argument is that they knew the defense would be **** and they needed to score points, but you could've made the same argument last year. I think the big difference is they didn't trust Jacory to air it out that much, but they trust Morris. And it hasn't quite worked out.

If this is what we're going to be moving forward, we need a truly elite QB and a VERY strong crop of WRs. That's certainly not unattainable, but I'd like to be that "powerful team" (Golden's words, not mine) that can maul teams when necessary.
 
Advertisement
For Golden to turn this program around, he needs to recruit better. We see how much of a difference a guy like Duke Johnson makes, and we see some promise in Deon Bush with partially realized potential in Denzel Perryman. The problem is, in today's day and age, for every Duke Johnson we gain we lose a Sammy Watkins, an Alex Collins, and a Patrick Peterson. We seem to get 1 out of every 4 guys in our backyard who are so good that they make impact as a freshmen.

Increased awareness of these prospects throughout the rest of the nation (and Florida, there was a day where we could maybe slip a guy past FSU or UF) and schools like LSU (Peterson) and Clemson (Watkins) throwing big money around down here with diplomatic immunity is going to kill this program, IMO. There is no coming back from missing out on guys like those.
 
For Golden to turn this program around, he needs to recruit better. We see how much of a difference a guy like Duke Johnson makes, and we see some promise in Deon Bush with partially realized potential in Denzel Perryman. The problem is, in today's day and age, for every Duke Johnson we gain we lose a Sammy Watkins, an Alex Collins, and a Patrick Peterson. We seem to get 1 out of every 4 guys in our backyard who are so good that they make impact as a freshmen.

Increased awareness of these prospects throughout the rest of the nation (and Florida, there was a day where we could maybe slip a guy past FSU or UF) and schools like LSU (Peterson) and Clemson (Watkins) throwing big money around down here with diplomatic immunity is going to kill this program, IMO. There is no coming back from missing out on guys like those.

The only one that applies is Collins. If we lose him, I agree those are the types of losses that really hurt a move toward dominance.
 
For Golden to turn this program around, he needs to recruit better. We see how much of a difference a guy like Duke Johnson makes, and we see some promise in Deon Bush with partially realized potential in Denzel Perryman. The problem is, in today's day and age, for every Duke Johnson we gain we lose a Sammy Watkins, an Alex Collins, and a Patrick Peterson. We seem to get 1 out of every 4 guys in our backyard who are so good that they make impact as a freshmen.

Increased awareness of these prospects throughout the rest of the nation (and Florida, there was a day where we could maybe slip a guy past FSU or UF) and schools like LSU (Peterson) and Clemson (Watkins) throwing big money around down here with diplomatic immunity is going to kill this program, IMO. There is no coming back from missing out on guys like those.

The only one that applies is Collins. If we lose him, I agree those are the types of losses that really hurt a move toward dominance.


The fact that it is a trend speaks volumes. Over the past decade or so, we have missed about half a dozen of these gamebreaking types of players, the type of players that can make a mediocre team look good, or a good team great. Florida won a championship due to having Percy Harvin and Tim Tebow. Without those guys, they don't win their conference. Each and every one of these guys that me miss on makes a difference, and the trend is for us to miss out on almost all of them. All 5 of our national championships were built with kids like these, who used to stay home, but after years of media slander and the NCAA permitting select schools to throw a duffel bag or two at a South Florida kid every year, our days of getting them are almost numbered.

Unless Golden can figure something out, but the loss of Collins is very concerning, and will bite us in the *** for the next 3-4 years (IMO the kid won't do much at FSU, they suck at utilizing running backs). It looks like even with Golden this trend isn't changing for the better.
 
Last edited:
For Golden to turn this program around, he needs to recruit better. We see how much of a difference a guy like Duke Johnson makes, and we see some promise in Deon Bush with partially realized potential in Denzel Perryman. The problem is, in today's day and age, for every Duke Johnson we gain we lose a Sammy Watkins, an Alex Collins, and a Patrick Peterson. We seem to get 1 out of every 4 guys in our backyard who are so good that they make impact as a freshmen.

Increased awareness of these prospects throughout the rest of the nation (and Florida, there was a day where we could maybe slip a guy past FSU or UF) and schools like LSU (Peterson) and Clemson (Watkins) throwing big money around down here with diplomatic immunity is going to kill this program, IMO. There is no coming back from missing out on guys like those.


Great post
 
Advertisement
For Golden to turn this program around, he needs to recruit better. We see how much of a difference a guy like Duke Johnson makes, and we see some promise in Deon Bush with partially realized potential in Denzel Perryman. The problem is, in today's day and age, for every Duke Johnson we gain we lose a Sammy Watkins, an Alex Collins, and a Patrick Peterson. We seem to get 1 out of every 4 guys in our backyard who are so good that they make impact as a freshmen.

Increased awareness of these prospects throughout the rest of the nation (and Florida, there was a day where we could maybe slip a guy past FSU or UF) and schools like LSU (Peterson) and Clemson (Watkins) throwing big money around down here with diplomatic immunity is going to kill this program, IMO. There is no coming back from missing out on guys like those.

The only one that applies is Collins. If we lose him, I agree those are the types of losses that really hurt a move toward dominance.


The fact that it is a trend speaks volumes. Over the past decade or so, we have missed about half a dozen of these gamebreaking types of players, the type of players that can make a mediocre team look good, or a good team great. Florida won a championship due to having Percy Harvin and Tim Tebow. Without those guys, they don't win their conference. Each and every one of these guys that me miss on makes a difference, and the trend is for us to miss out on almost all of them. All 5 of our national championships were built with kids like these, who used to stay home, but after years of media slander and the NCAA permitting select schools to throw a duffel bag or two at a South Florida kid every year, our days of getting them are almost numbered.

Unless Golden can figure something out, but the loss of Collins is very concerning, and will bite us in the *** for the next 3-4 years (IMO the kid won't do much at FSU, they suck at utilizing running backs). It looks like even with Golden this trend isn't changing for the better.

Good post. The only remedy to this is to get the EJs and Scott's of the world. Unknown but have great potential. That's how you can try to make up for those losses. But schools from around the country have been coming to Miami and Florida and stealing players. I think we missed out on a lot of players cause our recruiting sucked. Golden will reverse this trend.
 
If you want to have a reasonable discussion about this topic, the first step is to discuss the differences in the college football landscape. The biggest difference? Butch didn't have to deal with how the internet has leveled the playing field and access to talent. Butch didn't have to deal with the rise of an AAU culture. Butch didn't have to deal with a generation of athletes/recruits who have grown up with social media and expect instant gratification in almost all aspects of their lives.

This is a different environment and it's the first thing that needs to be addressed before making any historical comparison.


Actually Lu, you brought up the very point that I stated in another post that I didn't want to mention and instead would bring up later. All of the things you listed actually make it more difficult for Golden. So, if that's the case, wouldn't you say that it makes even less sense for those to have the mindset that he's going to turn it around faster than Butch?

There's no doubt in my mind. In fact, as crazy as it may be, I have not gotten very high or low this year because I sincerely looked at this year as a write-off. First time I've ever done it. I'm probably the last guy you've seen defend coaches on these boards over the years, but I recently presented a view that we should put the defensive struggles (within a philosophy I wholly disagree with) in context. That should tell you everything about how I feel.

The only thing I'm hoping for is a 2-win finish and a complete self-imposed post-season ban. Let's get a fresh start.

Lu you do realize that people were saying the same things about shannon when he took over right? He needed his players..new mentality..blah blah blah..He recruited better..blah blah Sounds like the same shy tto me except this guy can actually speak and is more organized or should i say a more formal shannon?

I'm aware. To me, their differences have nothing to do with how they speak. Shannon didn't have a plan to execute. Golden's plan may not work, but he has something to execute. On that alone, there's a world of difference.

Big +1 here.
 
For Golden to turn this program around, he needs to recruit better. We see how much of a difference a guy like Duke Johnson makes, and we see some promise in Deon Bush with partially realized potential in Denzel Perryman. The problem is, in today's day and age, for every Duke Johnson we gain we lose a Sammy Watkins, an Alex Collins, and a Patrick Peterson. We seem to get 1 out of every 4 guys in our backyard who are so good that they make impact as a freshmen.

Increased awareness of these prospects throughout the rest of the nation (and Florida, there was a day where we could maybe slip a guy past FSU or UF) and schools like LSU (Peterson) and Clemson (Watkins) throwing big money around down here with diplomatic immunity is going to kill this program, IMO. There is no coming back from missing out on guys like those.

The only one that applies is Collins. If we lose him, I agree those are the types of losses that really hurt a move toward dominance.


The fact that it is a trend speaks volumes. Over the past decade or so, we have missed about half a dozen of these gamebreaking types of players, the type of players that can make a mediocre team look good, or a good team great. Florida won a championship due to having Percy Harvin and Tim Tebow. Without those guys, they don't win their conference. Each and every one of these guys that me miss on makes a difference, and the trend is for us to miss out on almost all of them. All 5 of our national championships were built with kids like these, who used to stay home, but after years of media slander and the NCAA permitting select schools to throw a duffel bag or two at a South Florida kid every year, our days of getting them are almost numbered.

Unless Golden can figure something out, but the loss of Collins is very concerning, and will bite us in the *** for the next 3-4 years (IMO the kid won't do much at FSU, they suck at utilizing running backs). It looks like even with Golden this trend isn't changing for the better.

I agree and disagree.

I agree that we've missed on these guys, but ... for someone that only casually follows recruiting, the impression I got during Coker and in particular, Shannon years, was that either (1) all the South Florida guys wanted to leave town; and/or (2) Miami had no interest in these guys (for whatever reason). Now, the impression I get is that we're in it for every guy and suddenly kids are listing us back in their top 5.

For as much as we ridicule the decision-making of high school seniors, clearly they had a little more awareness than we gave them credit for and went elsewhere for the benefit of their careers.

Also, I think you're reading too much into the Alex Collins situation. Yes, it hurts, but he's one guy at a position that we're not starving for talent ... we need defenders bad, particularly D linemen.
 
My take:

When Butch came in, his biggest problem wasn't sanctions. It was a roster full of crappy Dennis Erickson recruits AND sanctions. The three classes before probation, Erickson signed one first rounder (Duane Starks). IIRC, Butch signed nine first rounders in his first three probation classes.

Golden has a two-year head start on clearing the roster and getting his guys on there. So half the job is done. If he can develop these players, including the depth guys, into solid contributors without much attrition, it will make it easier to win games amidst sanctions.

Not sure of the exact time frame your referring to but didn't Butch's inherit Yatil Green, Kenny Holmes, Kenard Lang? All 1st rounders.
 
Advertisement
Sammy Watkins, Patrick Johnson, Corey Lemonier...Alex Collins?

Cannot miss out on these types of players.
 
Just wanted to bump this thread. I have to keep reminding myself that this is going to be a long haul.
 
It's unrealistic to think Golden is gonna recruit at the level of what was the greatest recruiting job in cfb history so he better get some X and O guys on staff.
 
Advertisement

157.jpg
 
Advertisement
If you want to have a reasonable discussion about this topic, the first step is to discuss the differences in the college football landscape. The biggest difference? Butch didn't have to deal with how the internet has leveled the playing field and access to talent. Butch didn't have to deal with the rise of an AAU culture. Butch didn't have to deal with a generation of athletes/recruits who have grown up with social media and expect instant gratification in almost all aspects of their lives.

This is a different environment and it's the first thing that needs to be addressed before making any historical comparison.


I think this is why Golden is having such a tough time with team discipline. At Temple, you aren't getting top 5% athletes or talent. You're getting players that are grateful to have a free ride at all, haven't necessarily been the best at their former stops or have been on mediocre or bad teams, and are likely more pliable to the philosophizing and mind games that he riffs on because they want to taste some real, tangible success.

The Miami athlete is more along the lines of what you are referring to, and have been figuratively sucked off their entire lives by most adults they've come in contact with. They were likely the best player on their respective high school team, were inundated with scholarship offers, praised incessantly, been told have great they are and how they can be the next NFL superstar making millions, how they can play at the next level immediately without waiting, etc.

Now suddenly they are faced with a program mired deep in mediocrity, playing for a coach preaching about a long-term process, being disciplined on and off the field adhering to the rules without exception, and faced with some legitimate adversity for the first time in their sporting lives, we're seeing pushback from multiple sides. We've got a loudmouth father complaining that his very average son's playing time is hurting his draft status, other kids going off the reservation and skipping practices, another beating his woman, and who knows what else.

I can buy that, sure. But I still don't think that's the primary reason we're struggling. Other top teams have these problems as well and manage to find a way to perform regardless.

Golden should be ahead of the curve on all of these things. He's pretty obviously not an Xs and Os innovator or technical tactician. And, if you're not, you better be an innovator on the culture/management side. In planned scenarios, I think he's almost always ahead of the curve and on point. What has concerned me is some of the glimpses we've seen in live action.

He adheres to a strict philosophy (i.e. "we're in it together, we trust each other, let's rely on our defense") apparently without regard for a realistic assessment of our in-game circumstances. What do I interpret from those glimpses? Well, I can't make a conclusion, but I can raise concern that his approach may be a bit too rigid at times. I can interpret that he errs on the side of conservatism. In a discussion about this exact topic, someone pointed me to the onside kick against FSU. I countered that was almost assuredly pre-planned, had been worked on through the week, and would be applied if the scenario was right. It was essentially a rip-off (on the same field) of the Sean Payton move in the Super Bowl.

Does all of this mean he cannot turn things around? I think that's way too early to say. I'm more inclined to trust him because I see more evidence of a positive direction than negative glimpses. I also consider our alternatives. We may think "we're the University of Miami," but we're really just a program trying to get back to what that even means. We'll never get there by saying it. We'll only get there with a product on the field.

Golden has to adjust. He started off with a good foundation and says the right things. But, what may have worked 5 years ago may not be optimal today. Bill Parcells tried to employ into the Dolphins franchise the exact strategy he executed in Dallas. What failed? The environment changes. We need someone who can stay ahead of the environment to some degree. I think Golden can be that guy, but I'd like to see more evidence. Until then, I don't suggest tying anything into short term expectations. We are a 6.5 win team (for the record, preseason thread I said 6). No matter what has happened throughout the season, we're still...a 6.5 win team.

Cot****. It's sad I wrote this 18 months ago. My concerns have remained largely the same.
 
If you want to have a reasonable discussion about this topic, the first step is to discuss the differences in the college football landscape. The biggest difference? Butch didn't have to deal with how the internet has leveled the playing field and access to talent. Butch didn't have to deal with the rise of an AAU culture. Butch didn't have to deal with a generation of athletes/recruits who have grown up with social media and expect instant gratification in almost all aspects of their lives.

This is a different environment and it's the first thing that needs to be addressed before making any historical comparison.


I think this is why Golden is having such a tough time with team discipline. At Temple, you aren't getting top 5% athletes or talent. You're getting players that are grateful to have a free ride at all, haven't necessarily been the best at their former stops or have been on mediocre or bad teams, and are likely more pliable to the philosophizing and mind games that he riffs on because they want to taste some real, tangible success.

The Miami athlete is more along the lines of what you are referring to, and have been figuratively sucked off their entire lives by most adults they've come in contact with. They were likely the best player on their respective high school team, were inundated with scholarship offers, praised incessantly, been told have great they are and how they can be the next NFL superstar making millions, how they can play at the next level immediately without waiting, etc.

Now suddenly they are faced with a program mired deep in mediocrity, playing for a coach preaching about a long-term process, being disciplined on and off the field adhering to the rules without exception, and faced with some legitimate adversity for the first time in their sporting lives, we're seeing pushback from multiple sides. We've got a loudmouth father complaining that his very average son's playing time is hurting his draft status, other kids going off the reservation and skipping practices, another beating his woman, and who knows what else.

I can buy that, sure. But I still don't think that's the primary reason we're struggling. Other top teams have these problems as well and manage to find a way to perform regardless.

Golden should be ahead of the curve on all of these things. He's pretty obviously not an Xs and Os innovator or technical tactician. And, if you're not, you better be an innovator on the culture/management side. In planned scenarios, I think he's almost always ahead of the curve and on point. What has concerned me is some of the glimpses we've seen in live action.

He adheres to a strict philosophy (i.e. "we're in it together, we trust each other, let's rely on our defense") apparently without regard for a realistic assessment of our in-game circumstances. What do I interpret from those glimpses? Well, I can't make a conclusion, but I can raise concern that his approach may be a bit too rigid at times. I can interpret that he errs on the side of conservatism. In a discussion about this exact topic, someone pointed me to the onside kick against FSU. I countered that was almost assuredly pre-planned, had been worked on through the week, and would be applied if the scenario was right. It was essentially a rip-off (on the same field) of the Sean Payton move in the Super Bowl.

Does all of this mean he cannot turn things around? I think that's way too early to say. I'm more inclined to trust him because I see more evidence of a positive direction than negative glimpses. I also consider our alternatives. We may think "we're the University of Miami," but we're really just a program trying to get back to what that even means. We'll never get there by saying it. We'll only get there with a product on the field.

Golden has to adjust. He started off with a good foundation and says the right things. But, what may have worked 5 years ago may not be optimal today. Bill Parcells tried to employ into the Dolphins franchise the exact strategy he executed in Dallas. What failed? The environment changes. We need someone who can stay ahead of the environment to some degree. I think Golden can be that guy, but I'd like to see more evidence. Until then, I don't suggest tying anything into short term expectations. We are a 6.5 win team (for the record, preseason thread I said 6). No matter what has happened throughout the season, we're still...a 6.5 win team.

Cot****. It's sad I wrote this 18 months ago. My concerns have remained largely the same.

Recruiting has actually gotten worse since the "cloud" blew out to sea. Your second sentence in that first paragraph was and continues to be my biggest concern when coupled with the disappointing recruiting results.

That guy is a very bad gameday coach. Simplistic and lacks the ability to adjust...you couple that with average to slightly above average talent and we have a recipe to stay right where we've been for the last 10 years....mediocrity.
 
Cot****. It's sad I wrote this 18 months ago. My concerns have remained largely the same.

Lu, you really feel the 2014 team is a 6.5 win team? Why do you say that? I feel like the only major change is in QB. Everyone comes back.
 
Advertisement
Back
Top