Serious question regarding turning this program around.

[FlipT]

Butch also recruited more athletes and plugged them in where they were needed. AG seems to take more chances on projects and I don't believe he can develop players better than Davis. I've been to UNC practices and Butch just has IT when it comes to taking the right kid as a frosh regardless of stars and 3 years later turning him into a 1st or 2nd day pick regardless of his zip code.

 

[Dope Saks]

Stop acting like this is 00-04 canes teams

This.. Take the U off the helmet and change the colors you would think we was FIU. We don't have enough talent or depth. Our best players across the board on defense are sophomores or younger.. You know the saying babies raising babies that's true with this team we got sophomores teaching the freshmen how things go.. Its going to take 2 more years before we even close to being back..I don't expect to be much better next year, maybe a win or two better..

 

[LuCane]

If you want to have a reasonable discussion about this topic, the first step is to discuss the differences in the college football landscape. The biggest difference? Butch didn't have to deal with how the internet has leveled the playing field and access to talent. Butch didn't have to deal with the rise of an AAU culture. Butch didn't have to deal with a generation of athletes/recruits who have grown up with social media and expect instant gratification in almost all aspects of their lives.

This is a different environment and it's the first thing that needs to be addressed before making any historical comparison.

 

[DiegoCane]

Butch also recruited more athletes and plugged them in where they were needed. AG seems to take more chances on projects and I don't believe he can develop players better than Davis. I've been to UNC practices and Butch just has IT when it comes to taking the right kid as a frosh regardless of stars and 3 years later turning him into a 1st or 2nd day pick regardless of his zip code.

Curious what projects you are talking about?

 

[Chicken_N_Roffles]

Butch also had to deal with little thing called 31 scholarship reductions.

 

[CanesAreAble]

If you want to have a reasonable discussion about this topic, the first step is to discuss the differences in the college football landscape. The biggest difference? Butch didn't have to deal with how the internet has leveled the playing field and access to talent. Butch didn't have to deal with the rise of an AAU culture. Butch didn't have to deal with a generation of athletes/recruits who have grown up with social media and expect instant gratification in almost all aspects of their lives.

This is a different environment and it's the first thing that needs to be addressed before making any historical comparison.

I think this is why Golden is having such a tough time with team discipline. At Temple, you aren't getting top 5% athletes or talent. You're getting players that are grateful to have a free ride at all, haven't necessarily been the best at their former stops or have been on mediocre or bad teams, and are likely more pliable to the philosophizing and mind games that he riffs on because they want to taste some real, tangible success.

The Miami athlete is more along the lines of what you are referring to, and have been figuratively sucked off their entire lives by most adults they've come in contact with. They were likely the best player on their respective high school team, were inundated with scholarship offers, praised incessantly, been told have great they are and how they can be the next NFL superstar making millions, how they can play at the next level immediately without waiting, etc.

Now suddenly they are faced with a program mired deep in mediocrity, playing for a coach preaching about a long-term process, being disciplined on and off the field adhering to the rules without exception, and faced with some legitimate adversity for the first time in their sporting lives, we're seeing pushback from multiple sides. We've got a loudmouth father complaining that his very average son's playing time is hurting his draft status, other kids going off the reservation and skipping practices, another beating his woman, and who knows what else.

I can buy that, sure. But I still don't think that's the primary reason we're struggling. Other top teams have these problems as well and manage to find a way to perform regardless.

Agree.

But every job is different.

This program really did get hit with the perfect storm of despair.

On top of everything you mentioned, Golden had to pick up the pieces of two failed regimes (both led by first-year head coaches who were in over their heads), a woefully mismanaged roster, and Shapiro-gate.

That's a lot to deal with all at once.

People can label that excuse-making, but that's the situation we're in. We can talk all we want about "coaching guys up", but really, how much can Rodgers, Highsmith, Gaines, Cain, Green, Cornelius, etc... be coached up? From a pure athletic standpoint, none of those guys has Miami-caliber talent (MAYBE Cornelius, but he's a tweener). And when you factor in actual football talent, well...you get the idea.


Is Golden optimizing his talent? That's debatable. I don't know the answer. But I don't think he's grossly underperforming with the hand he's been dealt, and that's the most important thing to me. I think 95% of us expected something in the 6-8 win range. If Golden won 9+, then perhaps he's an elite coach. If he won 4 or fewer, then perhaps he was a dud.

The answer is somewhere in the middle.

My guess is he's probably a very good coach, but not an elite coach.

But we don't need an elite coach. We need a good coach who can keep the South Florida talent and develop it. The only way we're getting an elite coach here is if an unproven guy blossoms into one. Maybe that's Golden. I don't know. Maybe not. But I don't think that's what we need.

We need a guy who gets the Duke Johnsons, Deon Bushes, Matthew Thomases, Keith Bryants, Tracy Howards, etc... and brings in a stud QB to put it all together.

 

[jmbflame21]

Judge Golden in 2014 and 2015, if we arent National contenders by then.... then we all should be worried.

 

[UM58]

I think we'll see a slight improvement over the next few years and then things will level off due to sanctions(hopefully closer to osu than usc). 2019 looks like a good year to contend.

 

[Chrisarg72]

Another thing Butch had going for him:

Relevancy.

Here's a hard pill for canes fans to take, especially the older ones, but let's face it, we're not as relevant today as we were back when Butch had the reins. I'm older than the recruits by a couple years but it's hard for me to actually remember the dominant canes team of old from when they played and not replays. We haven't played in a national championship in 10 years. That means most recruits were 6-7 years old when it happened. They were in peewee football. Sure they heard about it, but hearing isn't seeing. When Butch took over we had won only four years ago, a huge difference on recruits who were in highschool when we had last won and actually remembered.

 

[LuCane]

If you want to have a reasonable discussion about this topic, the first step is to discuss the differences in the college football landscape. The biggest difference? Butch didn't have to deal with how the internet has leveled the playing field and access to talent. Butch didn't have to deal with the rise of an AAU culture. Butch didn't have to deal with a generation of athletes/recruits who have grown up with social media and expect instant gratification in almost all aspects of their lives.

This is a different environment and it's the first thing that needs to be addressed before making any historical comparison.

I think this is why Golden is having such a tough time with team discipline. At Temple, you aren't getting top 5% athletes or talent. You're getting players that are grateful to have a free ride at all, haven't necessarily been the best at their former stops or have been on mediocre or bad teams, and are likely more pliable to the philosophizing and mind games that he riffs on because they want to taste some real, tangible success.

The Miami athlete is more along the lines of what you are referring to, and have been figuratively sucked off their entire lives by most adults they've come in contact with. They were likely the best player on their respective high school team, were inundated with scholarship offers, praised incessantly, been told have great they are and how they can be the next NFL superstar making millions, how they can play at the next level immediately without waiting, etc.

Now suddenly they are faced with a program mired deep in mediocrity, playing for a coach preaching about a long-term process, being disciplined on and off the field adhering to the rules without exception, and faced with some legitimate adversity for the first time in their sporting lives, we're seeing pushback from multiple sides. We've got a loudmouth father complaining that his very average son's playing time is hurting his draft status, other kids going off the reservation and skipping practices, another beating his woman, and who knows what else.

I can buy that, sure. But I still don't think that's the primary reason we're struggling. Other top teams have these problems as well and manage to find a way to perform regardless.

Golden should be ahead of the curve on all of these things. He's pretty obviously not an Xs and Os innovator or technical tactician. And, if you're not, you better be an innovator on the culture/management side. In planned scenarios, I think he's almost always ahead of the curve and on point. What has concerned me is some of the glimpses we've seen in live action.

He adheres to a strict philosophy (i.e. "we're in it together, we trust each other, let's rely on our defense") apparently without regard for a realistic assessment of our in-game circumstances. What do I interpret from those glimpses? Well, I can't make a conclusion, but I can raise concern that his approach may be a bit too rigid at times. I can interpret that he errs on the side of conservatism. In a discussion about this exact topic, someone pointed me to the onside kick against FSU. I countered that was almost assuredly pre-planned, had been worked on through the week, and would be applied if the scenario was right. It was essentially a rip-off (on the same field) of the Sean Payton move in the Super Bowl.

Does all of this mean he cannot turn things around? I think that's way too early to say. I'm more inclined to trust him because I see more evidence of a positive direction than negative glimpses. I also consider our alternatives. We may think "we're the University of Miami," but we're really just a program trying to get back to what that even means. We'll never get there by saying it. We'll only get there with a product on the field.

Golden has to adjust. He started off with a good foundation and says the right things. But, what may have worked 5 years ago may not be optimal today. Bill Parcells tried to employ into the Dolphins franchise the exact strategy he executed in Dallas. What failed? The environment changes. We need someone who can stay ahead of the environment to some degree. I think Golden can be that guy, but I'd like to see more evidence. Until then, I don't suggest tying anything into short term expectations. We are a 6.5 win team (for the record, preseason thread I said 6). No matter what has happened throughout the season, we're still...a 6.5 win team.

 

[CANE1775]

If you want to have a reasonable discussion about this topic, the first step is to discuss the differences in the college football landscape. The biggest difference? Butch didn't have to deal with how the internet has leveled the playing field and access to talent. Butch didn't have to deal with the rise of an AAU culture. Butch didn't have to deal with a generation of athletes/recruits who have grown up with social media and expect instant gratification in almost all aspects of their lives.

This is a different environment and it's the first thing that needs to be addressed before making any historical comparison.

Actually Lu, you brought up the very point that I stated in another post that I didn't want to mention and instead would bring up later. All of the things you listed actually make it more difficult for Golden. So, if that's the case, wouldn't you say that it makes even less sense for those to have the mindset that he's going to turn it around faster than Butch?

Blackvern, maybe you should go back and re-read my post. As someone else mentioned, I specifically said that I wasn't asking for people to give him six years. In fact to be honest, this question really isn't for you. I know how you feel about Golden. This question is really for those that admit his gameday faults, but then predict that he can "overtalent" those deficiencies like Butch except they expect him to do it in a shorter timeframe than Butch.

 

[Big Sky Cane]

If you want to have a reasonable discussion about this topic, the first step is to discuss the differences in the college football landscape. The biggest difference? Butch didn't have to deal with how the internet has leveled the playing field and access to talent. Butch didn't have to deal with the rise of an AAU culture. Butch didn't have to deal with a generation of athletes/recruits who have grown up with social media and expect instant gratification in almost all aspects of their lives.

This is a different environment and it's the first thing that needs to be addressed before making any historical comparison.

I think this is why Golden is having such a tough time with team discipline. At Temple, you aren't getting top 5% athletes or talent. You're getting players that are grateful to have a free ride at all, haven't necessarily been the best at their former stops or have been on mediocre or bad teams, and are likely more pliable to the philosophizing and mind games that he riffs on because they want to taste some real, tangible success.

The Miami athlete is more along the lines of what you are referring to, and have been figuratively sucked off their entire lives by most adults they've come in contact with. They were likely the best player on their respective high school team, were inundated with scholarship offers, praised incessantly, been told have great they are and how they can be the next NFL superstar making millions, how they can play at the next level immediately without waiting, etc.

Now suddenly they are faced with a program mired deep in mediocrity, playing for a coach preaching about a long-term process, being disciplined on and off the field adhering to the rules without exception, and faced with some legitimate adversity for the first time in their sporting lives, we're seeing pushback from multiple sides. We've got a loudmouth father complaining that his very average son's playing time is hurting his draft status, other kids going off the reservation and skipping practices, another beating his woman, and who knows what else.

I can buy that, sure. But I still don't think that's the primary reason we're struggling. Other top teams have these problems as well and manage to find a way to perform regardless.

Golden should be ahead of the curve on all of these things. He's pretty obviously not an Xs and Os innovator or technical tactician. And, if you're not, you better be an innovator on the culture/management side. In planned scenarios, I think he's almost always ahead of the curve and on point. What has concerned me is some of the glimpses we've seen in live action.

He adheres to a strict philosophy (i.e. "we're in it together, we trust each other, let's rely on our defense") apparently without regard for a realistic assessment of our in-game circumstances. What do I interpret from those glimpses? Well, I can't make a conclusion, but I can raise concern that his approach may be a bit too rigid at times. I can interpret that he errs on the side of conservatism. In a discussion about this exact topic, someone pointed me to the onside kick against FSU. I countered that was almost assuredly pre-planned, had been worked on through the week, and would be applied if the scenario was right. It was essentially a rip-off (on the same field) of the Sean Payton move in the Super Bowl.

Does all of this mean he cannot turn things around? I think that's way too early to say. I'm more inclined to trust him because I see more evidence of a positive direction than negative glimpses. I also consider our alternatives. We may think "we're the University of Miami," but we're really just a program trying to get back to what that even means. We'll never get there by saying it. We'll only get there with a product on the field.

Golden has to adjust. He started off with a good foundation and says the right things. But, what may have worked 5 years ago may not be optimal today. Bill Parcells tried to employ into the Dolphins franchise the exact strategy he executed in Dallas. What failed? The environment changes. We need someone who can stay ahead of the environment to some degree. I think Golden can be that guy, but I'd like to see more evidence. Until then, I don't suggest tying anything into short term expectations. We are a 6.5 win team (for the record, preseason thread I said 6). No matter what has happened throughout the season, we're still...a 6.5 win team.

I think those are good points Lu but do you think guys like Saban are altering their system to fit the times?? I know Golden is not Saban and doesn't have the pedigree yet, however, I'm not sure good to great coaches have to be as flexible as you are saying.

 

[aintnothangbutacane]

Next year is a monster year in terms of what to look for and assess him as an overall CEO/Head Coach. That doesnt mean he has to have Miami in a BCS game and on a nationally relevant level, it doesnt mean he has to beat 3 top 10 teams on the schedule or even 1 of those. But it is a year where he will have 2.5 recruiting classes in and a veteran group from what was left over that he has had 3 offseasons with the oldest group(obviously talent in that last Shannon group is up for discussion). It will essentially be his team and you would hope the scheme is implemented to a point where the execution is crisp, the mental mistakes are gone, and the 2 deep for the most part is strong and developed physically.

There shouldnt be multiple blowouts where the team is not competitive and they should be beating the teams who are on Virginia's level whether at home or on the road. That doesnt mean next year Virginia will be **** again, but teams on the level of that Virginia team should be W's from 13 on IF we are looking for signs he is going to be successful. I would hope by 14 we are trending towards national relevance where we are at a level where 10 wins isnt a reach for the program year in and year out. If you can shoot for that 10 win mark per year you will obviously have the 8 or 9 win seasons but also have the years/runs where the average corrects itself and you are winning 11-12-13-14 games in those seasons.

I don't see a marked number of things right now to be overly optimistic about. We have better players than Virginia. Don't interpret that as "hurr durr we're Miami". No, if that was the case, i'd want him fired for not being a 10-11 win team from day 1. But you don't have to be "Miami" to beat that team with what was riding on that game. That is a flat out bad team void of talent. We are void of talent in a "Miami" sense, but we still have better players than them and should not need an 00-04 type roster to beat them. This is based on this coach and staff being an upgrade and not judging him on the level of the last 2 dufus' who ran the program. That's a classic ShanCoker loss with everything in our control to a terrible team.

Obviously, this can change going forward and this season and loss would be meaningless. I do like his supposed organizational aspects in terms of outside the lines and some of that stuff, but I think like many others, there is a lot to be desired considering this was supposed to be an upgrade which is key in how I personally judge him. We do have some promising young players, but we have seen that before and is not anything new.

Now we are just dumb fans and our barometer means ****, but from signs to look for, that is my dumb opinion.

 

[LuCane]

If you want to have a reasonable discussion about this topic, the first step is to discuss the differences in the college football landscape. The biggest difference? Butch didn't have to deal with how the internet has leveled the playing field and access to talent. Butch didn't have to deal with the rise of an AAU culture. Butch didn't have to deal with a generation of athletes/recruits who have grown up with social media and expect instant gratification in almost all aspects of their lives.

This is a different environment and it's the first thing that needs to be addressed before making any historical comparison.

I think this is why Golden is having such a tough time with team discipline. At Temple, you aren't getting top 5% athletes or talent. You're getting players that are grateful to have a free ride at all, haven't necessarily been the best at their former stops or have been on mediocre or bad teams, and are likely more pliable to the philosophizing and mind games that he riffs on because they want to taste some real, tangible success.

The Miami athlete is more along the lines of what you are referring to, and have been figuratively sucked off their entire lives by most adults they've come in contact with. They were likely the best player on their respective high school team, were inundated with scholarship offers, praised incessantly, been told have great they are and how they can be the next NFL superstar making millions, how they can play at the next level immediately without waiting, etc.

Now suddenly they are faced with a program mired deep in mediocrity, playing for a coach preaching about a long-term process, being disciplined on and off the field adhering to the rules without exception, and faced with some legitimate adversity for the first time in their sporting lives, we're seeing pushback from multiple sides. We've got a loudmouth father complaining that his very average son's playing time is hurting his draft status, other kids going off the reservation and skipping practices, another beating his woman, and who knows what else.

I can buy that, sure. But I still don't think that's the primary reason we're struggling. Other top teams have these problems as well and manage to find a way to perform regardless.

Golden should be ahead of the curve on all of these things. He's pretty obviously not an Xs and Os innovator or technical tactician. And, if you're not, you better be an innovator on the culture/management side. In planned scenarios, I think he's almost always ahead of the curve and on point. What has concerned me is some of the glimpses we've seen in live action.

He adheres to a strict philosophy (i.e. "we're in it together, we trust each other, let's rely on our defense") apparently without regard for a realistic assessment of our in-game circumstances. What do I interpret from those glimpses? Well, I can't make a conclusion, but I can raise concern that his approach may be a bit too rigid at times. I can interpret that he errs on the side of conservatism. In a discussion about this exact topic, someone pointed me to the onside kick against FSU. I countered that was almost assuredly pre-planned, had been worked on through the week, and would be applied if the scenario was right. It was essentially a rip-off (on the same field) of the Sean Payton move in the Super Bowl.

Does all of this mean he cannot turn things around? I think that's way too early to say. I'm more inclined to trust him because I see more evidence of a positive direction than negative glimpses. I also consider our alternatives. We may think "we're the University of Miami," but we're really just a program trying to get back to what that even means. We'll never get there by saying it. We'll only get there with a product on the field.

Golden has to adjust. He started off with a good foundation and says the right things. But, what may have worked 5 years ago may not be optimal today. Bill Parcells tried to employ into the Dolphins franchise the exact strategy he executed in Dallas. What failed? The environment changes. We need someone who can stay ahead of the environment to some degree. I think Golden can be that guy, but I'd like to see more evidence. Until then, I don't suggest tying anything into short term expectations. We are a 6.5 win team (for the record, preseason thread I said 6). No matter what has happened throughout the season, we're still...a 6.5 win team.

I think those are good points Lu but do you think guys like Saban are altering their system to fit the times?? I know Golden is not Saban and doesn't have the pedigree yet, however, I'm not sure good to great coaches have to be as flexible as you are saying.

I think Saban has adjusted very much since his prior stints, especially with Michigan State. I suspect we'll see the same from Golden.

 

[LuCane]

If you want to have a reasonable discussion about this topic, the first step is to discuss the differences in the college football landscape. The biggest difference? Butch didn't have to deal with how the internet has leveled the playing field and access to talent. Butch didn't have to deal with the rise of an AAU culture. Butch didn't have to deal with a generation of athletes/recruits who have grown up with social media and expect instant gratification in almost all aspects of their lives.

This is a different environment and it's the first thing that needs to be addressed before making any historical comparison.

Actually Lu, you brought up the very point that I stated in another post that I didn't want to mention and instead would bring up later. All of the things you listed actually make it more difficult for Golden. So, if that's the case, wouldn't you say that it makes even less sense for those to have the mindset that he's going to turn it around faster than Butch?

There's no doubt in my mind. In fact, as crazy as it may be, I have not gotten very high or low this year because I sincerely looked at this year as a write-off. First time I've ever done it. I'm probably the last guy you've seen defend coaches on these boards over the years, but I recently presented a view that we should put the defensive struggles (within a philosophy I wholly disagree with) in context. That should tell you everything about how I feel.

The only thing I'm hoping for is a 2-win finish and a complete self-imposed post-season ban. Let's get a fresh start.

 

[blackvern]

If you want to have a reasonable discussion about this topic, the first step is to discuss the differences in the college football landscape. The biggest difference? Butch didn't have to deal with how the internet has leveled the playing field and access to talent. Butch didn't have to deal with the rise of an AAU culture. Butch didn't have to deal with a generation of athletes/recruits who have grown up with social media and expect instant gratification in almost all aspects of their lives.

This is a different environment and it's the first thing that needs to be addressed before making any historical comparison.

Actually Lu, you brought up the very point that I stated in another post that I didn't want to mention and instead would bring up later. All of the things you listed actually make it more difficult for Golden. So, if that's the case, wouldn't you say that it makes even less sense for those to have the mindset that he's going to turn it around faster than Butch?

There's no doubt in my mind. In fact, as crazy as it may be, I have not gotten very high or low this year because I sincerely looked at this year as a write-off. First time I've ever done it. I'm probably the last guy you've seen defend coaches on these boards over the years, but I recently presented a view that we should put the defensive struggles (within a philosophy I wholly disagree with) in context. That should tell you everything about how I feel.

The only thing I'm hoping for is a 2-win finish and a complete self-imposed post-season ban. Let's get a fresh start.

Lu you do realize that people were saying the same things about shannon when he took over right? He needed his players..new mentality..blah blah blah..He recruited better..blah blah Sounds like the same shy tto me except this guy can actually speak and is more organized or should i say a more formal shannon?

 

[Consigliere]

If you want to have a reasonable discussion about this topic, the first step is to discuss the differences in the college football landscape. The biggest difference? Butch didn't have to deal with how the internet has leveled the playing field and access to talent. Butch didn't have to deal with the rise of an AAU culture. Butch didn't have to deal with a generation of athletes/recruits who have grown up with social media and expect instant gratification in almost all aspects of their lives.

This is a different environment and it's the first thing that needs to be addressed before making any historical comparison.

Actually Lu, you brought up the very point that I stated in another post that I didn't want to mention and instead would bring up later. All of the things you listed actually make it more difficult for Golden. So, if that's the case, wouldn't you say that it makes even less sense for those to have the mindset that he's going to turn it around faster than Butch?

There's no doubt in my mind. In fact, as crazy as it may be, I have not gotten very high or low this year because I sincerely looked at this year as a write-off. First time I've ever done it. I'm probably the last guy you've seen defend coaches on these boards over the years, but I recently presented a view that we should put the defensive struggles (within a philosophy I wholly disagree with) in context. That should tell you everything about how I feel.

The only thing I'm hoping for is a 2-win finish and a complete self-imposed post-season ban. Let's get a fresh start.

Lu you do realize that people were saying the same things about shannon when he took over right? He needed his players..new mentality..blah blah blah..He recruited better..blah blah Sounds like the same shy tto me except this guy can actually speak and is more organized or should i say a more formal shannon?

Also add that Golden works his *** off, has experience coaching a team and building a program.

 

[LuCane]

If you want to have a reasonable discussion about this topic, the first step is to discuss the differences in the college football landscape. The biggest difference? Butch didn't have to deal with how the internet has leveled the playing field and access to talent. Butch didn't have to deal with the rise of an AAU culture. Butch didn't have to deal with a generation of athletes/recruits who have grown up with social media and expect instant gratification in almost all aspects of their lives.

This is a different environment and it's the first thing that needs to be addressed before making any historical comparison.

Actually Lu, you brought up the very point that I stated in another post that I didn't want to mention and instead would bring up later. All of the things you listed actually make it more difficult for Golden. So, if that's the case, wouldn't you say that it makes even less sense for those to have the mindset that he's going to turn it around faster than Butch?

There's no doubt in my mind. In fact, as crazy as it may be, I have not gotten very high or low this year because I sincerely looked at this year as a write-off. First time I've ever done it. I'm probably the last guy you've seen defend coaches on these boards over the years, but I recently presented a view that we should put the defensive struggles (within a philosophy I wholly disagree with) in context. That should tell you everything about how I feel.

The only thing I'm hoping for is a 2-win finish and a complete self-imposed post-season ban. Let's get a fresh start.

Lu you do realize that people were saying the same things about shannon when he took over right? He needed his players..new mentality..blah blah blah..He recruited better..blah blah Sounds like the same shy tto me except this guy can actually speak and is more organized or should i say a more formal shannon?

I'm aware. To me, their differences have nothing to do with how they speak. Shannon didn't have a plan to execute. Golden's plan may not work, but he has something to execute. On that alone, there's a world of difference.

 

[Consigliere]

If you want to have a reasonable discussion about this topic, the first step is to discuss the differences in the college football landscape. The biggest difference? Butch didn't have to deal with how the internet has leveled the playing field and access to talent. Butch didn't have to deal with the rise of an AAU culture. Butch didn't have to deal with a generation of athletes/recruits who have grown up with social media and expect instant gratification in almost all aspects of their lives.

This is a different environment and it's the first thing that needs to be addressed before making any historical comparison.

Actually Lu, you brought up the very point that I stated in another post that I didn't want to mention and instead would bring up later. All of the things you listed actually make it more difficult for Golden. So, if that's the case, wouldn't you say that it makes even less sense for those to have the mindset that he's going to turn it around faster than Butch?

There's no doubt in my mind. In fact, as crazy as it may be, I have not gotten very high or low this year because I sincerely looked at this year as a write-off. First time I've ever done it. I'm probably the last guy you've seen defend coaches on these boards over the years, but I recently presented a view that we should put the defensive struggles (within a philosophy I wholly disagree with) in context. That should tell you everything about how I feel.

The only thing I'm hoping for is a 2-win finish and a complete self-imposed post-season ban. Let's get a fresh start.

Lu you do realize that people were saying the same things about shannon when he took over right? He needed his players..new mentality..blah blah blah..He recruited better..blah blah Sounds like the same shy tto me except this guy can actually speak and is more organized or should i say a more formal shannon?

I'm aware. To me, their differences have nothing to do with how they speak. Shannon didn't have a plan to execute. Golden's plan may not work, but he has something to execute. On that alone, there's a world of difference.

I agree.

 

[weownfsu]

One thing I've realized is that any historical comparisons are now going to be inaccurate. I can't judge Golden in relation to Butch only; I can just judge Golden on what I see and within the context of the situation he came into.

I think the question gets misframed a lot though. The question I ask myself is whether Golden will be able to win a national title when the team is loaded with talent, and whether he will be able to load the team with talent. If he can't load the team with talent or win a national title, then he ain't the guy.

I'm not sure if Golden can load this team with talent. He's going to have to win soon, like, next year. We are going to need to become a recruiting powerhouse and have top 5 classes every year. Golden has proven he has a good eye for talent, but are these guys going to continue improving? Since 2004, we've seen a LOT of players who have solid freshman seasons, solid sophomore seasons, and then that's it. They never become an all-american game changer. For us to get back, that has to change. Eddie Johnson has to become a beast. Duke has to become a Heisman contender. Deon Bush has to become a first round pick and not Anthony Reddick.


I also think Fisch sucks. Golden preached about how we'd have a tough, physical team, but we are FAR from it. In fact we are very soft. that is probably my biggest complain with Golden so far. This team is soft. And being soft doesn't come just from talent, it comes from attitude. Our attitude on offense sucks. I'll never approve of throwing the ball like we do and I don't think we'll ever win big doing that. It's a bull**** offense and since Golden hired him, Golden needs to get fisch straight and dictate to the entire coaching staff the type of team this needs to be.


So basically, the jury is out. I think the mental make up of the team has a lot of changing to do but I see signs it can happen. But If Golden doesn't start really winning next year, I doubt he ever will. We'll never be able to recruit like we need to. It'll be too far gone.

I just don't know. But there's a lot of things that could be better right now and aren't, and Butch doesn't change that.