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Random off-season question regarding the 87 fiesta bowl vs Penn State

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SWFLHurricane said:
A combination....Bad game by Vinny....and Bad play calling (self admitted many times) by JJ.......Unfortunately, JJ relented to Vinny wanting to keep throwing....instead of putting his fist down and changing the game plan somewhat. I love JJ like nobody's business. But between the 87 Penn St game, and Ericksons garbage *** game plans vs BYU in 90, and Bama in 93 ....still gives me nightmares...
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Did Jimmy tell Gary Stevens to call that many passing plays? Or was Gary doing it?
 
I'm not saying Miami should have lost to Tennessee in 1985, they shouldn't have, and I'm never going to say it should have been 35-7, but UT wasn't bad. They were 9-1-2 and finished 4th in the polls. They lost to the Florida team that beat Miami (and finished #5). They tied a UCLA team that finished #10 and tied a GT team that was 9-2-1 and finished #18. The stadium was also 95% UT fans.
 
filmcane said:
I've never read anywhere that suggested he threw the game.

The thing is, he lost the game that would have given us the national title in the 86' Sugar bowl against TN, where he totally choked game against an inferior Vol team. Because of that Sugar bowl game, it never crossed my mind that he threw the Fiesta Bowl.

Additionally, there aren't many QB's that could match his physical assets, but still, he didn't have a legendary career, because he would choke when it counted. All of this = I never thought he threw the game and still don't. He just didn't have "it".

The very next year, the opposite of Vinny came along in Steve Walsh (my fave CFB QB of alltime). Steve didn't have Vinny's size, frame, footspeed, and certainly not his arm strength, but he did have ice in his veins, and that ice was the difference needed for a natty.
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This sounds more like the truth than someone throwing a game. He probably had that Romo in him
 
Go Canes!! said:
A very high percentage of fault for that loss falls squarely on the shoulders of Jimmy Johnson, who should have been running Alonzo right down their throats.
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That pretty much sums it up right there. Penn State came into that game determined to not let Vinny beat them. They kept dropping 7 or 8 guys and Vinny kept trying to force the ball. Jimmy should have made the adjustment and run the ball until they brought down their linebackers. Then you let Vinny air it out. We had 170 yards on the ground.
 
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Vinny got clotheslined facemasked on 2nd and goal from the 5. It should have been 1st and goal from the 2.5 with 1 timeout. I think Alonzo gets in on 4 tries.
 
bandhammer said:
Vinny got clotheslined facemasked on 2nd and goal from the 5. It should have been 1st and goal from the 2.5 with 1 timeout. I think Alonzo gets in on 4 tries.
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Maybe Zo scores but there wasn’t time for 4 tries.

The 2nd-goal from 6 could have been a run for Zo, followed by an immediate TO (1 remaining) if he didn‘t score.

But nobody pays me to make these decisions (for good reason) and for crying out loud, the game was 35 years ago.
 
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TemplarCane said:
Why not just throw a bad pass on the 4th-and-6? Something just off where Blades wouldn’t be able to make the catch? He had already thrown 4 picks. What good was the extra drama? A bet on the number of picks he’d throw? Turn the ball back to PSU on downs, a little over 2 minutes left, end of game.

I recently watched short versions of a number of games from 86. Vinny, for all his physical gifts, either couldn‘t consistently read a defense or thought so highly of his arm he took a lot of chances. Or both. Against Texas Tech he threw two bad picks in the first half, and the defense dropped a few other near-picks. The Canes won easily anyway.

And we all know his habit of throwing interceptions in the league.

Tennessee and Penn State were good teams and had excellent game plans. Miami didn’t have a counterpunch.
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This. 1,000 times over, this.

People act like human shortcomings in pressure situations must inevitably be explained by a gambling problem.

Again, for all the "Vinny threw the game" nimrods or "Vinny changed all the running plays" bros, go back and re-watch the last couple of drives.

Second-to-last drive started with offensive pass interference. Did Vinny do that? Cost us a down and 10 yards. Second play was a Highsmith run for a half-yard. Deep in our own territory, 2nd and 20, and we ran. Guys screaming about how we were just RUNNING IT DOWN Ped State's throats. For the record, our last planned run of the game. Third down, incomplete. Maybe you can blame Vinny for an incompletion on 3rd and 19.5. Yeah, that **** gamblin' Vinny, always throwing an incompletion on 3rd and 19.5.

Last drive. We all know the play it ended on, 4th and goal from outside the 10. Not exactly a high-expectation/high-success-rate for scoring a touchdown off of a run. But we forget, Vinny drove us all the way down to the 6 before that sack. Entirely on his own production. Almost all passes, with one QB scramble. But look at the plays. Every single one was set up for a pass. Not once did JJ yell at Vinny or call a timeout to discuss Vinny changing plays. Maybe earlier in the game, who knows, but not in the last 2 drives over the last 5 minutes. Did Vinny throw a couple of incompletions? Sure. But Vinny wasn't responsible for the sacks or the hurries. Vinny didn't drop a couple of balls. Vinny kept making completions, including a key 4th down conversion to keep the drive alive.

If that was "throwing the game", it's the worst job of "throwing a game" that I've ever seen. Vinny didn't cause the sack that knocked us back from 1st and goal at the 6, that was our OL that was to blame.

Terrible final play, terrible outcome, but people need to remember how gambling works. Miami was a 6.5 point favorite. Even if Vinny completes the winning TD pass, Miami still "loses" the game with the gamblers.

That final drive meant NOTHING in a gambling sense. The gamblers who took Ped State had already won. Nobody who took Miami was going to have a sudden reversal of fortune if Miami scored.
 
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TemplarCane said:
Maybe Zo scores but there wasn’t time for 4 tries.

The 2nd-goal from 6 could have been a run for Zo, followed by an immediate TO (1 remaining) if he didn‘t score.

But nobody pays me to make these decisions (for good reason) and for crying out loud, the game was 35 years ago.
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30 seconds and 1 timeout from the 2.5 yard line. I think he gets at least 2 carries.
 
Crystal Ball said:
Was he injured?
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According to JJ he should not have started. He was involved in a motorcycle accident on Campus and had not practiced or fully recovered for that game. JJ also states that he should have pulled him at some point in that game because we totally outplayed Penn State ( as the stats showed) and even with all the intercepts it was still a close game......in conclusion JJ said it was one of his worst games that he called in his entire career.......worst loss.
 
bandhammer said:
30 seconds and 1 timeout from the 2.5 yard line. I think he gets at least 2 carries.
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Yes, call TO if he doesnt’ score on the first carry.

Maybe call Zo‘s number again or a QB sneak on the next play if the ball is spotted on or inside the 1. Or a pass-run option for Vinny. A pass option gives a chance for maybe one more play, unless Vinny throws a pick.

Oh wait….
 
bandhammer said:
30 seconds and 1 timeout from the 2.5 yard line. I think he gets at least 2 carries.
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Huh?

First and goal from the 9.5 yard line; obvious pass play, the RB immediately moves up to block:
1658880322573.png




2nd and goal from the 6 yard line:
1658880569330.png





Sack:
1658880731048.png





Timeout #2:
1658880803355.png





3rd and goal from the 13, obvious passing play:
1658880888556.png




Fourth and goal from the 13, obvious passing down:
1658881020098.png




None of those plays were high-percentage run plays. We had 2nd and goal from the 6 with a running clock, our BEST chance at a run, when we've only handed off ONCE on the final two drives (for a half-yard gain). JJ/Gary called for a pass there, don't blame Vinny, blame his blockers.

I'm not sure what game some of you watched.
 
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Still, with all those turnovers, we almost won that game. 5 interceptions and we lost by 4, throwing into the end zone before we lost. Very similar to the Ohio State game.
If Taylor downs the ball after the interception they would probably have never scored after.
 
TheOriginalCane said:
Huh?

First and goal from the 9.5 yard line; obvious pass play, the RB immediately moves up to block:
View attachment 200748



2nd and goal from the 6 yard line:
View attachment 200749




Sack:
View attachment 200750




Timeout #2:
View attachment 200751




3rd and goal from the 13, obvious passing play:
View attachment 200753



Fourth and goal from the 13, obvious passing down:
View attachment 200756



None of those plays were high-percentage run plays. We had 2nd and goal from the 6 with a running clock, our BEST chance at a run, when we've only handed off ONCE on the final two drives (for a half-yard gain). JJ/Gary called for a pass there, don't blame Vinny, blame his blockers.

I'm not sure what game some of you watched.
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You didn't pay attention to what I was talking about. Look at the clothes line face mask when he got sacked. It should have been half the distance to the goal, so 2.5-3 yard line and an automatic first down. He was clearly facemasked and they missed it.
 
bandhammer said:
You didn't pay attention to what I was talking about. Look at the clothes line face mask when he got sacked. It should have been half the distance to the goal, so 2.5-3 yard line and an automatic first down. He was clearly facemasked and they missed it.
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Again, you are being ridiculous here.

First, while the play STARTED just within the 6 yard line, the contact took place at the 13 yard line. If we take your assertion that there was a "clear facemask", which is a spot foul, then the ball would have been placed at the 6.5 yard line, which was pretty close to the original spot ON THE PLAY ITSELF, when JJ and Gary called a pass play. NOT the "2.5-3 yard line".

1658959118482.png




More importantly, it wasn't a "clear facemask", the defender rakes the side of Vinny's helmet and ultimately got the underside of his helmet as Vinny ducked under him. Even Vinny didn't make a motion for a facemask call, nor did the UM coaches.

Don't get me wrong, I'm still angry about that sack, but I've never viewed it as a "clear facemask", because it wasn't. Here's the same play from a different angle, the defender clearly has his hand on the side of Vinny's helmet by the earhole.

1658959470964.png



Not a facemask. And even if some sort of a penalty was called there, we only get first and goal (again) from the 6.5 yard line. Which, again, means that time is of the essence, as we were burning a lot of clock, particularly when you consider that every play on the drive was a called passing play. Every play. Vinny scrambled once and got sacked once.

Sorry, I'm just not sure when we were supposed to run during that final drive. Vinny's passes accounted for all of our forward yardage, except for the 4 yard scramble.
 
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TheOriginalCane said:
Again, you are being ridiculous here.

First, while the play STARTED just within the 6 yard line, the contact took place at the 13 yard line. If we take your assertion that there was a "clear facemask", which is a spot foul, then the ball would have been placed at the 6.5 yard line, which was pretty close to the original spot ON THE PLAY ITSELF, when JJ and Gary called a pass play. NOT the "2.5-3 yard line".

View attachment 201040



More importantly, it wasn't a "clear facemask", the defender rakes the side of Vinny's helmet and ultimately got the underside of his helmet as Vinny ducked under him. Even Vinny didn't make a motion for a facemask call, nor did the UM coaches.

Don't get me wrong, I'm still angry about that sack, but I've never viewed it as a "clear facemask", because it wasn't. Here's the same play from a different angle, the defender clearly has his hand on the side of Vinny's helmet by the earhole.

View attachment 201041


Not a facemask. And even if some sort of a penalty was called there, we only get first and goal (again) from the 6.5 yard line. Which, again, means that time is of the essence, as we were burning a lot of clock, particularly when you consider that every play on the drive was a called passing play. Every play. Vinny scrambled once and got sacked once.

Sorry, I'm just not sure when we were supposed to run during that final drive. Vinny's passes accounted for all of our forward yardage, except for the 4 yard scramble.
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The spot is from the line of scrimmage, not from where he was tackled. Facemask or not, I don't know. It's grainy, it's 1986. The fact that you spent so much time to type all that out and add screen shots tells me you have a lot of time on your hands. Have a great day, man.
 
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