Please no more Stretch run plays

[AUcane]

Duke is averaging an ACC leading 7.1 per carry between the tackles...

Lots of yards in zone plays come from cutbacks between the tackles. Between the tackles doesn't mean it's a power, counter or lead, etc.

Well, there are zone plays and then there are stretch zone plays. I am also not a fan of the stretch plays. It gives the defender too much time to cut off angles and pursue. As chise mentions, sure, we might be able to break off a couple decent long runs from it but overall, it results in negative plays more often than not.

 

[MizCane]

Duke is averaging an ACC leading 7.1 per carry between the tackles...

Lots of yards in zone plays come from cutbacks between the tackles. Between the tackles doesn't mean it's a power, counter or lead, etc.

Well, there are zone plays and then there are stretch zone plays. I am also not a fan of the stretch plays. It gives the defender too much time to cut off angles and pursue. As chise mentions, sure, we might be able to break off a couple decent long runs from it but overall, it results in negative plays more often than not.

Exactly!

 

[The Franchise]

Duke is averaging an ACC leading 7.1 per carry between the tackles...

Lots of yards in zone plays come from cutbacks between the tackles. Between the tackles doesn't mean it's a power, counter or lead, etc.

Well, there are zone plays and then there are stretch zone plays. I am also not a fan of the stretch plays. It gives the defender too much time to cut off angles and pursue. As chise mentions, sure, we might be able to break off a couple decent long runs from it but overall, it results in negative plays more often than not.

That's exactly the problem with those stretch plays. Add to that when you're going against a fast defense like fsu you're much more likely to reach and grab guys as they get past you resulting in drive-killing holding penalties. We don't need negative yardage plays in this game because that's when they start picking balls off and getting the rockslide going.

 

[DC Dog Nuts]

Just pitch the **** ball to him.

 

[LuCane]

Duke is averaging an ACC leading 7.1 per carry between the tackles...

Lots of yards in zone plays come from cutbacks between the tackles. Between the tackles doesn't mean it's a power, counter or lead, etc.

Well, there are zone plays and then there are stretch zone plays. I am also not a fan of the stretch plays. It gives the defender too much time to cut off angles and pursue. As chise mentions, sure, we might be able to break off a couple decent long runs from it but overall, it results in negative plays more often than not.

In theory it sounds right, but reality contradicts what both of you are saying. I watched every single offensive play from the Wake Forest game. There was one negative play off of what I presume you're calling "stretch zone." It just so happened to be a play that should be thrown out of the playbook: stretch zone with Hagens actually (!) leading. Both times we ran it on Saturday, it was awkward and quickly stopped.

In the first half, Duke ran 8 zone stretch plays versus 2 non-zone (and, yet, these were slow developing misdirection/counter plays). He averaged 4 yards/carry on zone stretch with no negative plays. He averaged 3 yards/carry with no negative plays on non-zone, but again, these were slow developing counters.

In the second half, Duke ran 7 zone stretch plays versus 13 non-zone (there was a small sprinkle of quick hitters - 3 if I charted correctly - but mostly were slower developing counter and misdirection plays). He averaged 4.7 yards/carry on zone stretch. He averaged 6.7 on non-zone (remember: the bulk being very slow developing outside counter plays).

Looking into the numbers and what I charted, nearly 70% of Duke's carries were on outside counters/misdirections or zone stretch plays. 7 out of 8 of his longest runs of the day were either zone stretch or plays that required him to use counter steps + have Walford come from the other side of the formation in misdirection.

Pretty clear that the coaches not only see Duke's best weapon as the cutback, they call plays that fit it. We are blessed that he's a great RB who's capable of running inside to keep the defense honest on straight powers and leads. On the other hand, there's a pretty obvious tendency to try Crawford on the powers and leads. Crawford had over 70% of his yards come on the plays you're asking for and only averaged 3 yards/carry on outside stretch zone plays.

* FWIW, saw some other tendencies that are really positive for us against FSU.
** Also, forgive if I mischarted a handful of plays. I just did this in 30 minutes on my lunch break. The general idea and numbers should be solid.

 

[Coach Macho]

Continue Lu.

 

[NorthFlaCane]

zone stretch is pretty successful in the NFL, and those defenses are faster than FSU's

of course, the offensive lineman are also more athletic

I really think McDermott is the big weakness on the oline

 

[LuCane]

Continue Lu.

Con que? With what? I got 8 more minutes before my lunch break is over and I have to a head to a meeting, so correct me if you saw something else. I'm trying to get discussion goin', if you can't tell.

 

[Bennubird]

This for so many reasons.

Slow developing run plays will get eaten alive by fsu. Yeah, we might break a couple for decent gains, but I think for consistent gains we need to go right at them. Duke's a menace to society between the tackles.

 

[BigCaneAl]

Continue Lu.

Con que? With what? I got 8 more minutes before my lunch break is over and I have to a head to a meeting, so correct me if you saw something else. I'm trying to get discussion goin', if you can't tell.

* FWIW, saw some other tendencies that are really positive for us against FSU.

Please continue

 

[Coach Macho]

Continue Lu.

Con que? With what? I got 8 more minutes before my lunch break is over and I have to a head to a meeting, so correct me if you saw something else. I'm trying to get discussion goin', if you can't tell.

I'm sayin...

Good work. Keep it goin. LOL

 

[The Franchise]

zone stretch is pretty successful in the NFL, and those defenses are faster than FSU's

of course, the offensive lineman are also more athletic

I really think McDermott is the big weakness on the oline

The NFL is a passing league. Running games are pretty much an afterthought in that league. And you're right that you've got the cream of the crop athletically on the OLs in the NFL. Get a slow OL in college, and match them up against a fast D and ask them to run laterally, and you're going to have problems.

Not so sure that Wake is a great barometer, as they don't recruit from the same pool of athletes that fsu does. Not even close. What we did against Wake's 3rd rate slow athletes might not translate to working against fsu just like what we did against some of the poor athletes from earlier in our schedule didn't necessarily translate.

 

[LuCane]

zone stretch is pretty successful in the NFL, and those defenses are faster than FSU's

of course, the offensive lineman are also more athletic

I really think McDermott is the big weakness on the oline

The NFL is a passing league. Running games are pretty much an afterthought in that league. And you're right that you've got the cream of the crop athletically on the OLs in the NFL. Get a slow OL in college, and match them up against a fast D and ask them to run laterally, and you're going to have problems.

Not so sure that Wake is a great barometer, as they don't recruit from the same pool of athletes that fsu does. Not even close. What we did against Wake's 3rd rate slow athletes might not translate to working against fsu just like what we did against some of the poor athletes from earlier in our schedule didn't necessarily translate.

It's a fair and natural point. Except, doesn't the same apply to other stuff? What we did successfully inside against Wake's baby-sized DL might not translate to the stout, assignment scheme of FSU (with plugs, athletic 3 and 5 techs + 285 pound DEs). Boston College had success early on against FSU by literally keeping them off-balance. I think you guys are right in that the quick-hitters have to be used (mixed and matched in there).

I'm calling Hollyhood or Courcy out to give us a perspective on inside and outside zone schemes.

 

[hollyhood27]

I just really don't understand the hatred for the scheme in general? Inside and outside zone is a great play, and we have been pretty good at running since Whipple was here (he loved to go no huddle a run stretch into the boundary after a big play).

Everyone wants to complain about it not being physical enough, however the whole scheme is based off of securing the first (by double teams) and getting a horizontal push (instead of a vertical push).

The 2 plays are compliment of each other. In order to successfully run the inside zone, you need to get the D flowing hard to the outside. When the D starts flowing it then it naturally sets up the inside zone (which is a natural cut back play. The back reads it from backside A to frontside A). So when you run outside, you are either able to secure the edge or get them over pursuing and set up the inside zone.

Thats the very short (slightly unorganized) version of why these plays do work.

 

[JHallCanes]

Lu, I think some are just saying against FSU, it might be a bad idea. Stretching them out seems like it plays to their strength. Jernigan is tough inside but I think we can handle them in between the tackles if Wheeler is at center.

edit: nevermind, its been touched on

 

[LuCane]

Continue Lu.

Con que? With what? I got 8 more minutes before my lunch break is over and I have to a head to a meeting, so correct me if you saw something else. I'm trying to get discussion goin', if you can't tell.

I'm sayin...

Good work. Keep it goin. LOL

I thought you meant other games. I was like, man, I dunno if I have enough time for that.

Here are some things that could be viewed as negative, but I'm gonna keep my Ibis hat on (the one Duke wore after he won the State 'ship) and try to look at this stuff optimistically:

- There has to be some reason Coley insists on balanced sets. Is it a tendency shown to be broken when we motion into trips?
- We had a good amount of guys open on underneath crossing routes against WF. I didn't notice it as much when I watched live. Morris' PA off the "zone stretch" is pretty solid and, since they run that play so **** often to the left side (short or wide), I absolutely have to think it's setup for something. I'm gonna be optimistic.
- I don't have an exact #, but there has to be a reason we run the ball like 80%+ of the time Walford goes in motion? I'm gonna be optimistic.
- When we audibled and Duke shortened his distance from the LOS, it was a pass. Would like to see the same tendency and give him (or Hagens) a quick dive.
- Have I missed it or have we simply not shown an unbalanced set? With the success BC had early on w/ this formation and our depth at OL, why hasn't this been shown or done? I'm gonna be optimistic.
- I think it was you or NewYorkCane who noted that we're running verticals with quick outs. What in the **** happened to the flood concept? Morris actually throws that post route (last year, the deep in to Scott) decently well, so where is it? I'm gonna be optimistic.

There are more that I have on the notepad back in my office. The general theme is that I saw Coley break tendency in the second half and it gave me a glimmer of hope that all of the stuff written above will be broken at the right time: this week and next.

 

[Awsi Dooger]

I just really don't understand the hatred for the scheme in general? Inside and outside zone is a great play, and we have been pretty good at running since Whipple was here (he loved to go no huddle a run stretch into the boundary after a big play).

That was one of my favorite trends in recent Canes football. I wish we would go back to it, instead of this Jim Furyk back-away nonsense no matter what happened on the previous play.

 

[AUcane]

I think this discussion might be helped greatly by video to describe what we're talking about when we mention "zone stretch" or "inside out zone", "stretch", etc.

 

[supacane]

The stretch play is great for busting big runs, the problem is guys can shoot the gaps and get TFLs. Its not a good idea v FSU, they are small and fast. We should send that big OL right at them. Over and Over again. It will run the clock and tire them out. We cannot get into 3rd and long much. They will blitz the **** out of Morris and he hasnt been doing well in identifying where the blitz is coming from lately. I watched the BC game and BC kept on running it at them. I wanna see some one WR set with 2 TEs and 2 RBS in the back field. Test that middle and get it messy in there. The coaches are smarter than i am tho so more than likely Morris will be chucking it all over the place. Lets hope to the guys in full white

 

[JHallCanes]

I wouldn't mind seeing a throwback pass off of a stretch run formation early in the game. FSU is going to come out on fire on defense. They know we want to run the ball and control the clock. It would take perfect execution but if we can slip Walford out and use their aggression against them, we can hit them for a big play early. You knew Wake was going to try and hit us with the same type of thing after they blew their first chance at a wide open TD and I wouldn't mind borrowing a page from them.