OT- Have athletes gotten worse in the NBA/MLB?

[canesthing3]

As a whole, NBA players are better athletes today. You will have outliers both ways but just off an eye test, I think players today are easily more athletic.

 

[User-4525]

Vertical jump isn't the end all be all to athleticism in the NBA. At the 2011 combine, Harrison Barnes had a 38 inch vertical and Terence Ross had a 31 vertical. Barnes had a faster 3/4 sprint too. Everyone in the league knows Ross is the much better athlete.

Pat Connaughton has a 38 inch vertical but no one would say Connaughton is a better athlete than Derrick Rose, who had a 34.5 inch standing vertical. Pat can jump high off two feet but doesn't explode quickly because he loads his knees so much.

Westbrook had a 30 inch vertical and is widely regarded as the best athlete to ever play the point guard position. Steph Curry and Kevin Love both had 29.5 inches verticals. James Harden and Westbrook had the similar 3 quarter sprint times. Those two aren't even comparable in the open court. Blake Griffin and Eric Gordon both recorded 32 inch verticals at the combine, and aren't in the same class as athletes. Jimmy Butler and Avery Bradley have the same speed and jumping numbers as John Wall but aren't viewed as his caliber of athlete. Dwyane Wade and Carmelo had similar numbers. The comparisons go on and on.

Two of the best athletes basketball has ever seen, Zach Lavine and Aaron Gordon, had vertical leaps of 33.5 and 32.5 respectively (41.5 and 39 inches after taking two steps then jumping). A lot of the "super athletes" of the 80s/90s would test like this well. That's why the claim that 7'1 Wilt, with an almost 10 foot standing reach, could jump 48 inches (meaning straight into the air, although doubt he could it running either) is ridiculous.

MJ was at 38 inches in 1989 and got up to 48 after working with Tim Grover. Grover, who also trained Scottie Pippen, Wade, and Kobe, said vertical jump is an overrated measurement and tells you very little about an athlete's explosiveness on the basketball court. Grover says athletic training has come along way in the past twenty years as well.

The combine's athletic tests do not measure one leg jumping, lateral jumps, first steps, change of direction with and without the ball, or the quickness of a player's first and second jump.

Draft Combine Agility | Stats | NBA.com

Draft Combine Agility data

stats.nba.com

 

[DTP]

Oh man, Hassan is a clown but he’s not a stiff.

 

[KrazyCane]

To me NBA players are better athletes and more talented on every level than at any other point in NBA history.

 

[bshaw28]

Your mind must have melted early, because I never said anything about Scott Hatteberg.

Pitchers are throwing harder. Are players running faster? Where is the evidence? Are better athletes entering the game? There are more Latins but less African-Americans.

Humans didn’t evolve. The athletes are getting better in football because the rules favor speed over strength. Baseball’s analytics are taking the game in a different direction. It doesn’t mean that the players are getting worse. But different traits are being selected.

I agree with @BoxingRobes that athletes are better now as a whole. They just train better/smarter/more efficiently, eat better, take better care of their bodies, etc. I think you see it in track & field where most world records are from the last 10-15 years, and keep getting broken. Although it might just be the juice is getting better.

But it does seem this is becoming a what's more athletic debate - size/power or speed/agility?

Example - who's a better athlete? Terrell Owens or Randy Moss? Derrick Henry or Christian McCaffery? It's an interesting debate.

90's NBA big men had bigger bodies to bang down low. Current big men are lighter, but faster rim runners. Power vs Speed.
Both are highly skilled - 90's big men just worked on their post moves as their skill set, where current big men are more ball handling & shooting.

 

[DMoney]

When you were talking about Moneyball, that "the bad-bodied hitter who walks a ton and hits" was Scott Hatteberg.

No, the Moneyball example was Billy Beane and Dykstra. Beane was better the athlete across the board and was drafted higher. But he wasn't as good of a hitter as Dykstra.

This was the first lesson of Moneyball-- the better athlete is not always the better baseball player. That insight has been amplified by analytics in the modern game, to the detriment of athletes who steal bags but strike out and don't walk.

Evidence - look up speed score. You can see how much faster the league is getting before your very eyes in only a short period of time. In just 2015 there were 3 players with speed scores over 30, today there are 8. In 2015 just 37 players over 29 speed score, 2019 there were 58...and thats just in four seasons.

You are missing the premise entirely, which is why you are using evidence that goes all the way back to....2015.

This isn't about training or nutrition. This is about the quality of athlete that is entering a sport. Players clearly have more resources to maximize their talent in today's game. It does not mean the 2019 Nebraska Cornhuskers are more talented athletes than the 1996 Nebraska Cornhuskers.

But even if we are talking about training, MLB in the 90s seemed to have something that helped with performance. Does that count?

"From 2011/12 to 2017/18, NBA power forwards increased their per game 3PA by 327%."

You keep confusing skill with athleticism. As @Coach Macho noted, they are better at threes because they practice more. They are not more powerful, explosive athletes.

Here are the true PFs who led the league in 3PM this year: Danilo Gallinari, Kevin Love, Jaren Jackson, Kristaps Porzingis.

Are you telling me those guys are better athletes than Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, Larry Johnson, Chris Webber and Shawn Kemp? Is Brook Lopez a better athlete than David Robinson? Come on.

 

[DMoney]

You named 3 guys...name the other top stars in the NBA...they are freakshows. Got**** Lebron and company.

This is from an article last month (Forbes) on the Top 10 Players of the 2020 season:

1-Giannis Antetokounmpo
2-James Harden
3-LeBron James
4-Kawhi Leonard
5-Luka Doncic
6-Anthony Davis
7-Nikola Jokic
8-Damian Lillard
9-Chris Paul
10. Jimmy Butler

Giannis, LeBron and Davis are freaks in any era. But look at the rest. Harden and Butler can't keep up with guys like Jordan and Clyde athletically. Penny Hardaway is a better athlete than any guard on the list by a mile. No comparison between Robinson, Dream, Shaq and Jokic. Compare Grant Hill to his modern equivalent in Doncic. Kawhi is a beast with great hands, but he's not Shawn Kemp or Pippen as an athlete.

In terms of handle and shooting, it's the modern era. But the 90s was an era of power and explosiveness.

 

[BoxingRobes]

You are missing the premise entirely, which is why you are using evidence that goes all the way back to....2015.

This isn't about training or nutrition. This is about the quality of athlete that is entering a sport. Players clearly have more resources to maximize their talent in today's game. It does not mean the 2019 Nebraska Cornhuskers are more talented athletes than the 1996 Nebraska Cornhuskers.

No man, I understand the premise...its just asinine. Its old man barbershop nonsense.

If you can't see that data right in front of your eyes, idk what to tell you. How about you show me some data driven evidence that shows athletes of yesteryear were better.

You keep confusing skill with athleticism. As @Coach Macho noted, they are better at threes because they practice more. They are not more powerful, explosive athletes.

Here are the true PFs who led the league in 3PM this year: Danilo Gallinari, Kevin Love, Jaren Jackson, Kristaps Porzingis.

Are you telling me those guys are better athletes than Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, Larry Johnson, Chris Webber and Shawn Kemp? Is Brook Lopez a better athlete than David Robinson? Come on.

No man, I am not. The game is different today. Oddly enough, a game that is different because of the increased athleticism of its players. You can keep comparing apples or oranges...but I will say...a player like Giannis is more athletic than Shawn Kemp, LeBron James is more athletic than Karl Malone, Brow is a better athlete than David Robinson, etc.

 

[TOcane]

Human beings have not evolved in 25 years. There were elite athletes back then, too. That's why it's important to note what is emphasized, and what isn't.

In terms of baseball, the super-athlete with supreme defense and elite basestealing is no longer as valued as the bad-bodied hitter who walks a ton and hits. That's the classic Billy Beane v. Lenny Dykstra comparison in Moneyball.

In basketball, it has become more of a European game. It is no coincidence Europeans like Doncic and Jokic (who lack explosive athleticism) are having so much more success. They used to get eaten alive.

I watched the Dolphins against the 85 Bears the other day and when they started saying players weight I was shocked because I thought there would be a huge difference compared to today's game. There was not. The only difference was they wore those jerseys that went down to their elbows so you couldn't see their biceps. I wish I was alove to watch some of that time period. Looked like fun.

 

[DMoney]

Oddly enough, a game that is different because of the increased athleticism of its players.

This is why the NBA is different: in 1995, the average team shot 1,255 threes a season. In 2019, the average team shot 2,625 threes a season. Teams chucking up threes has nothing to do with athleticism.

The testing data for the '90s NBA isn't available, so we are both using the eye test. My eyes see a bunch of "Stretch 4s" and "Stretch 5s" who aren't athletic but can shoot.

In the '90s, that guy is Brad Lohaus. And he's sitting on the end of the bench watching the more athletic players perform.

I think you see it in track & field where most world records are from the last 10-15 years, and keep getting broken. Although it might just be the juice is getting better.

The rules in track are the same. A 100M sprint is still a 100M sprint. It follows that times will improve with better nutrition and training.

Now imagine if they changed the rules so that a sprinter needs to run ten 100M sprints and add up his times. It would attract a different kind of athlete entirely.

The rule changes in the other sports are more subtle, but the analytics revolution has been profound. In baseball, speed is being devalued. It follows that a fast player will have a tougher time of making the big leagues than before. Other skills (such as plate discipline) become more important. In basketball, shooting is king. That means teams will forgive other flaws (such as athleticism and strength) before they take a non-shooter. That has a huge impact on the pool of athletes.

 

[BoxingRobes]

The rules in track are the same. A 100M sprint is still a 100M sprint. It follows that times will improve with better nutrition and training.

Read The Sports Gene.

 

[AllAboutTheU]

Overall skill in today's NBA has fallen off. I don't even see how that's debatable.

DMoney’s whole argument is that players are more skilled and less athletic. So you think players are less athletic and less skilled, in aggregate?

 

[AllAboutTheU]

Giannis, LeBron and Davis are freaks in any era. But look at the rest. Harden and Butler can't keep up with guys like Jordan and Clyde athletically

James Harden has elite deceleration. Better than WRs who can slow down and get in and out of their breaks on a dime. Talking about who can “keep up” with Michael Jordan does not prove anything. MJ, Drexler, Dominique would be great athletes in any era. So would a laundry list of guys from this era.

All mentions of testing with respect to these NBA guys is silly. They don’t prepare for these combines like NFL guys do. The on floor stuff is way more important to teams.

 

[bacane]

Had this discussion with some friends and wanted to bring it to the board: Have players gotten less athletic in the NBA and MLB since the 1980s and 1990s?

Football players have gotten more athletic since the rules began favoring passing. But in basketball, the rules have been favoring more of a European game based on shooting and less man-to-man defense. Stars like Curry, Harden and Doncic are extremely skilled but only average athletes by NBA standards. Would a player like Duncan Robinson survive in the 80s and 90s with the amount of minutes he plays?

Same in MLB. The game is phasing out steals and there is less contact, which means less athletic defense. Walks and homers are king. Has the game lost athleticism?

Really depends on how you define athleticism? The players today are much stronger, faster, better trained and perhaps more athletic than 30-40 years ago. Skill sets might not be as refined and developed as in the past as now size/speed rules and players are fast tracked to the NBA, NFL, MLB. The talent pool has also vastly expanded over that same time period, whether it's African-Americans in the NBA and NFL or Latin Americans in baseball. Just go back and look at some of the old footage. Many of the elite players could still play in today's games, but a good number of the others would never see the field.

 

[bacane]

So all star Chris Paul who has OKC, a team no one thought much of, in the playoffs is a dinosaur. Got it. And I mentioned Chris Paul because he's only one of a handful of players that fit your 50% criteria. Out of players who attempt at least 2 10-14 foot jumpers per game, Kyrie, CP3, Khris Middleton, CJ McCollum, and Donovan Mitchell are the only ones who fit the bill. Of players who attempt at least 2 15-19 foot jumpers per game, CP3, Middleton, McCollum, Dlo, Josh Richardson, Brogdon, and Mitchell fit the bill. Klay and Steph would be in here if they were healthy. Kendrick Nunn just missed the list at 49%. I don't see any dinosaurs on that list.

Not many players were shooting 50% from the midrange in the 80s/90s.

Players Shooting | Stats | NBA.com

A table featuring shooting information for each player in the league based on selected filters.

stats.nba.com

Should today's players being taking more mid range is a different question though.

Unfortunately, analytics say no.

 

[1LuvCane]

I think people often underestimate the athleticism of the past players.

The players AREN'T bigger, that's a fact. You can look it up. Average height/weight of each position hasn't changed in over 20 years. The next debate is, are they more explosive? No clue. There's no combine numbers to support that. The average vertical in the NBA is still a pathetic 28". Guess you gotta use the eye test, I don't know.

Big guys playing on the perimeter doesn't mean they're more athletic, it means they're MORE SKILLED. But they're not more skilled overall as basketball players. They've just traded skill in the paint for skill on the perimeter. While big men from the past were working on their post-game daily, today's big men work on their perimeter game. (hence the reason there is no post game in today's NBA) if the past big men devoted all of their time to a perimeter game, who's to say they wouldn't be just as good as today's big men on the perimeter? That's silly. Tell me what training innovations have come to basketball in the past 20 years that makes 6'9"-7'0" be able to handle the ball or shoot better on the perimeter. I'll listen.

Overall skill in today's NBA has fallen off. I don't even see how that's debatable. Only a person who didn't watch basketball in the 80s/90s would disagree with that. Guys like Bird and Jordan could embarrass you from every spot on the court. And it wasn't necessarily because they were more athletic, especially not in Bird's case. It was because they were more skilled. Their game was more balanced. Many of those old guys took way more pride in their craft. These dudes today just want to chuck up 3's and get easy dunks.
IT'S UNWATCHABLE for me.

And that's through a coach's eye. Appreciate the input...

 

[1LuvCane]

No, the Moneyball example was Billy Beane and Dykstra. Beane was better the athlete across the board and was drafted higher. But he wasn't as good of a hitter as Dykstra.

This was the first lesson of Moneyball-- the better athlete is not always the better baseball player. That insight has been amplified by analytics in the modern game, to the detriment of athletes who steal bags but strike out and don't walk.



You are missing the premise entirely, which is why you are using evidence that goes all the way back to....2015.

This isn't about training or nutrition. This is about the quality of athlete that is entering a sport. Players clearly have more resources to maximize their talent in today's game. It does not mean the 2019 Nebraska Cornhuskers are more talented athletes than the 1996 Nebraska Cornhuskers.

But even if we are talking about training, MLB in the 90s seemed to have something that helped with performance. Does that count?



You keep confusing skill with athleticism. As @Coach Macho noted, they are better at threes because they practice more. They are not more powerful, explosive athletes.

Here are the true PFs who led the league in 3PM this year: Danilo Gallinari, Kevin Love, Jaren Jackson, Kristaps Porzingis.

Are you telling me those guys are better athletes than Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, Larry Johnson, Chris Webber and Shawn Kemp? Is Brook Lopez a better athlete than David Robinson? Come on.

Last paragraph is spot on imo...

 

[Ironmanfootball]

Human beings have not evolved in 25 years. There were elite athletes back then, too. That's why it's important to note what is emphasized, and what isn't.

In terms of baseball, the super-athlete with supreme defense and elite basestealing is no longer as valued as the bad-bodied hitter who walks a ton and hits. That's the classic Billy Beane v. Lenny Dykstra comparison in Moneyball.

In basketball, it has become more of a European game. It is no coincidence Europeans like Doncic and Jokic (who lack explosive athleticism) are having so much more success. They used to get eaten alive.

But the strength and conditioning science world has. American Football places a much larger emphasis on S&C from 9th grade through the NFL than the basketball, soccer, and baseball world does. I still deal with jabronis (both parent and athlete) telling me "lifting will mess up my swing/shot" versus in football it's just a common knowledge thing that you're going to at least lift.

Many college basketball and baseball players pick up their first weight in college. That # has to be around 0% for college football players.

Basketball and baseball players get much more time for skill development than football because football isn't a "year round" sport as it's truly played (underwear football in a girl's lacrosse helmet doesn't count, IMO). Baseball and basketball play competitive games that replicate their actual season year round so there's more time invested to develop skill versus athleticism being molded.

 

[User-4525]

This is from an article last month (Forbes) on the Top 10 Players of the 2020 season:

1-Giannis Antetokounmpo
2-James Harden
3-LeBron James
4-Kawhi Leonard
5-Luka Doncic
6-Anthony Davis
7-Nikola Jokic
8-Damian Lillard
9-Chris Paul
10. Jimmy Butler

Giannis, LeBron and Davis are freaks in any era. But look at the rest. Harden and Butler can't keep up with guys like Jordan and Clyde athletically. Penny Hardaway is a better athlete than any guard on the list by a mile. No comparison between Robinson, Dream, Shaq and Jokic. Compare Grant Hill to his modern equivalent in Doncic. Kawhi is a beast with great hands, but he's not Shawn Kemp or Pippen as an athlete.

In terms of handle and shooting, it's the modern era. But the 90s was an era of power and explosiveness.

A very lazy way to look at which era has better athletes. Take the top 100 scorers from 96-97 versus the top 100 scorers of 19-20 and it isn't even close which group has the better athletes

 

[User-4525]

James Harden has elite deceleration. Better than WRs who can slow down and get in and out of their breaks on a dime. Talking about who can “keep up” with Michael Jordan does not prove anything. MJ, Drexler, Dominique would be great athletes in any era. So would a laundry list of guys from this era.

All mentions of testing with respect to these NBA guys is silly. They don’t prepare for these combines like NFL guys do. The on floor stuff is way more important to teams.

He does.

Only athletic skill is jumping and running to them. But doesn't fit their narrative when the most athletic point guard ever puts up 30 inch vertical without any outlier speed.