OT- Have athletes gotten worse in the NBA/MLB?

[NC_Canes_11]

I think MLB pitchers are more athletic than ever

Understatement of the year. Unless you’ve been in the box and seen it, nobody understands what 95+ looks like. It’s unfathomable to see 95 and then 80 with break or 85 with break. I know throwing programs are different and guys aren’t making 50 starts anymore but pitchers are machines. The game has never been tougher than it is right now.

 

[moshated305]

Analytics have changed sports. Teams want layups/dunks or 3s in basketball and everyone is swinging for the fence in baseball. The days of the mid-range shot is gone just like the days of just getting on base and manufacturing runs are gone. Hitters rather strikeout trying to hit a HR than get on base with a single.

 

[moshated305]

I'm glad many are describing the rule changes. Even playing basketball in the 90s changed multiple times. If you were playing organized ball at any level, hand-checking was still a thing. Then it was the "forearm" rule.

That **** makes a huge difference in what can be done on the floor. I remember playing HS ball when one of the transitions happened and the "hand on hip" was regulated out of the game. I played point guard and it basically made my life completely different. It's difficult to compare across eras with different rules and styles.

Anyone ever play in those local tournaments like Reebok Blacktop? You'd face some dude who had two hands on your hips at all times. Just different basketball.

It's crazy watching a game now, you can't even breathe on guys now. James Harden is untouchable. Dude shoots more 3s than anyone but somehow also leads the league in free throws taken by a wide margin every year. If you are anymore near him, he's getting the whistle.

 

[Memnon]

The NBA no, the MLB absolueltly.

The NBA has more athletic freaks than the league has ever had, the problem is most of them are not fundamentally sound & don't have much refined skill, they're basically just a lot of pure raw athletes that have conformed their game to fit the over the top push towards analytics from Front offices with the excessive 3pt gimmick game, the mid range game is almost nonexistent. But the actually athletic ability from a large crop of the players are second to none. They don't have the physicality of 80's/90's/00's Basketball, but in terms of freakish ability they're off the charts.

The MLB has had a drastic drop off in great athletes, it's no longer an athlete game, it's high volume strikeout/long ball game, it's all Boom or bust, pure technician hitters have almost been completely taken out of the game. At bats are all predicated on launch angles & simply trying to hit Homeruns as opposed to hitting for contact & getting on base.

The game has lost a strong crop of talent to Football & because travel baseball is so expensive, has essentially priced out really good African American talent from the inner city. At one point Blacks were roughly 20% of the MLB, but now the numbers have dropped below 100 Black players in the league. Not saying that it's only thing that matters, but a lot of good athletes have just either not played the game at an early age or left the game behind to play Football.

On the flip side, due to Baseballs heavy investment in academies in Latin America, now close to 30% of the league is Hispanic players, which is actually a great thing to me, but the point is Baseball made it a point to invest in getting Hispanic players & the numbers increased sevenfold over time.

I still love Baseball but the game isn't as exciting & dynamic as it used to be, 90's/00's Baseball was special, steroids or not, the game was highly competitive & had star power. The game now is exactly what happens when you let Ivy Leaguers take over front offices that think they can algorithm their way into World Series titles. It's Hedge fund Baseball now, Wall Street on grass, the game is a lot less fun IMO.

 

[DMoney]

Huh? Teams of those eras did that all time.

They were playing zone?

 

[firstandcanes]

I wouldn't say that there's better athletes now, it's more scientific with training regimens and dieting now. I miss the physicality of 80s basketball. Most of the guys that play now days wouldn't last a season back then.

As for baseball give me those steroid freaks that are jacking 450 foot homers every other game. Say what you will about the state of the game from those days it was always exciting to watch a Bonds or Mcguire at bat.

 

[BoxingRobes]

Those that say the athletes have gotten worse are so far off the reservation. Athletes across the board are bigger, stronger, faster, more athletic.

They've also become very specialized where skillsets have improved just as much as everyone's athleticism so there is a heavy focus throughout all sports on specialization.

If you were to say skill is more important than athleticism in sports today, you'd have no argument from me...but players are more athletic across the board. At the top, in the middle, and at the bottom of rosters are more athletic today than yesterday and they'll be more athletic tomorrow than today.

 

[BoxingRobes]

Understatement of the year. Unless you’ve been in the box and seen it, nobody understands what 95+ looks like. It’s unfathomable to see 95 and then 80 with break or 85 with break. I know throwing programs are different and guys aren’t making 50 starts anymore but pitchers are machines. The game has never been tougher than it is right now.

When D$ threw baseball into the mix and using Scott Hatteberg my mind nearly melted. FWIW - Scott Hatteberg was a multiple sport athlete in HS.

Baseball today has astronomical exit velos and power distance, players are much faster with sprint speed never being higher...on top of sprint speed fielding catch probability and radius have never been wider...and yeah, pitchers have never thrown harder. Legitimately everything about baseball is bigger, stronger, faster, and more athletic as well as more focused specialized skills as most baseball teams are using some in depth analytics.

 

[DMoney]

When D$ threw baseball into the mix and using Scott Hatteberg my mind nearly melted. FWIW - Scott Hatteberg was a multiple sport athlete in HS.

Your mind must have melted early, because I never said anything about Scott Hatteberg.

Pitchers are throwing harder. Are players running faster? Where is the evidence? Are better athletes entering the game? There are more Latins but less African-Americans.

Humans didn’t evolve. The athletes are getting better in football because the rules favor speed over strength. Baseball’s analytics are taking the game in a different direction. It doesn’t mean that the players are getting worse. But different traits are being selected.

 

[Ethnicsands]

Baseball has turned into mens softball. Dont get me wrong, I like the long ball but I miss stolen bases in the game. Guys like Ricky Henderson were artists. Amazing to think guys were stealing 90+ bases and not winning the stolen bases title. Today stealing 40 bases makes you elite.

Part of the thing is better analytics highlights the bad decisions in stolen bases much of the time. That out is really costly. The extra base is valuable only some of the time. In the old days, it was about carefully manufactured runs in low scoring games, where the choice made sense sometimes. In this era and style of play, it’s just not a good decision most of the time. And the types of guys who could put up high steals totals aren’t generally the types of guys teams value today.

 

[Ethnicsands]

Lit up Jordan too...so much so that Jordan told Kerr to guard em', and when Kerr couldn't guard em' He told Harper to guard em':

Chris Jackson was a sick shooter. Recall him coming out of HS and at LSU. Kid once hit 270 consecutive free throws in practice ... including 90 in a row that hit nothing but net.

 

[gogeta4]

Had this discussion with some friends and wanted to bring it to the board: Have players gotten less athletic in the NBA and MLB since the 1980s and 1990s?

Football players have gotten more athletic since the rules began favoring passing. But in basketball, the rules have been favoring more of a European game based on shooting and less man-to-man defense. Stars like Curry, Harden and Doncic are extremely skilled but only average athletes by NBA standards. Would a player like Duncan Robinson survive in the 80s and 90s with the amount of minutes he plays?

Same in MLB. The game is phasing out steals and there is less contact, which means less athletic defense. Walks and homers are king. Has the game lost athleticism?

i dont think so in Basketball it may be kind of overhyped.

Steph Curry isnt a small guy, and is in my opinion an above average athlete..add to it he may have top 5 handle of the rock.
- James Harden just plays an old man game.
-Luka Doncic is 6'7 230+, dude would be a PF or C on some teams and here he is bringing the ball up the court putting guys in the mix.

-Duncan Robinson is a specialist...but he is also 6'7 and can play the 2 or 3.

You named 3 guys...name the other top stars in the NBA...they are freakshows. Got**** Lebron and company.

 

[gogeta4]

There’s probably more less athletic shooters in the modern NBA but it balances out because the stiffs and “enforcer” type players no longer exist. In the 80’s and 90’s the league was loaded with big guys who’s only skill was that they were tall. They couldn’t pass, they couldn’t shoot, they couldn’t dribble. They just clogged up the paint on defense and tried to grab occasional rebounds. Those guys don’t exist in the modern game.

 

[BoxingRobes]

Your mind must have melted early, because I never said anything about Scott Hatteberg.

Pitchers are throwing harder. Are players running faster? Where is the evidence? Are better athletes entering the game? There are more Latins but less African-Americans.

Humans didn’t evolve. The athletes are getting better in football because the rules favor speed over strength. Baseball’s analytics are taking the game in a different direction. It doesn’t mean that the players are getting worse. But different traits are being selected.

When you were talking about Moneyball, that "the bad-bodied hitter who walks a ton and hits" was Scott Hatteberg.

Evidence - look up speed score. You can see how much faster the league is getting before your very eyes in only a short period of time. In just 2015 there were 3 players with speed scores over 30, today there are 8. In 2015 just 37 players over 29 speed score, 2019 there were 58...and thats just in four seasons. You can go down the list. Brother, your thesis in this thread is so patently false asking someone to show evidence is kind of insulting. There is legitimately zero evidence for you to support this. Zero.

The Sport Gene is a book that outlines that while humans have not evolved, athletes have. Biologically, not really, no. However the athlete of today is much larger than that of athletes 100 years, 50 years ago, 25 years ago, etc in most sports...if there are some similar body types on average, its distributed differently - like the NBA for example. However, athletes of today have dramatically better access to specialized technology between the whistles and off the field/court...and understanding of nutrition, exercise, etc and it starts at a much younger age and is much more rigorous than it was in previous eras of sport...you like South Florida football, you clearly understand the nature v. nurture dynamic here.

Here is a quick article back to the NBA --

70 Years of Height Evolution in the NBA [4,504 players analyzed]

“You can’t teach height” - Red Auerbach We spent 2 months

runrepeat.com

A few notes --

"players are getting more agile and quicker to fit with the modern beyond-the-perimeter game."

When you compare the 7 footers of the Jordan or Bird/Magic Era whatever...

"From 2011/12 to 2017/18, NBA power forwards increased their per game 3PA by 327%."
"Over the same period, 7-footers increased the share of 3-point shots in total FGA from 4,6% up to 21.3%."

 

[gogeta4]

Kinda off topic here but I believe that Philadelphia will never contend for a championship with their current roster because it was built on a losing culture. It's the downfall to tanking. You lose and lose and lose and acquire high lottery picks but when you bring in these young guys, you're bringing them in to a culture of losing. There's a reason certain teams are almost always in the playoffs and certain teams are terrible almost every year despite the fact that they keep drafting early.

You seen what happened the minute they brought in a guy that was use to winning or wants to win....Jimmy Butler. He wanted out of there 2.lol

Cant have a team when your stars are LOSERS. Embiid and the Simmons kid who was a loser at LSU.

Their win is essentially getting to the playoffs and being "popular" nba players..to them they have made it already.

 

[gogeta4]

The NBA is much, much different than it was 20 years ago.

Young guys don't understand that there is more mid-long range shooting because of the rules changes for defenders.

No hand checking, defensive fouls for aggressive play are called a lot more. ****, I recall two guys in the modern era get double teched just for staring at each other.

Guys like Larry Bird, John Stockton, and Chris Mullin would absolutely dominate this league. Larry would not have two guys literally breathing down his neck, and with his mid range and post game (that is non existent in todays NBA), he would be unstoppable.

One has to wonder how Steph Curry would fare with guys like Gary Peyton or Stockton guarding them with the old rules.

Pretty sure his 3 pt pct would go down.

Steph Curry would bust both of their ***. Gary Payton would have a shot...John Stockton would be barbecue got**** chicken. Im talking a smooth 30-40pt every time type of game.

 

[User-4525]

Steph Curry would bust both of their ***. Gary Payton would have a shot...John Stockton would be barbecue got**** chicken. Im talking a smooth 30-40pt every time type of game.

they're not hearing you prop. Curry's lateral movement is superior to everyone and his conditioning is first class

Dell Curry shot 40% from 3 during that era but Steph wouldn't? C'mon man

 

[NC_Canes_11]

When D$ threw baseball into the mix and using Scott Hatteberg my mind nearly melted. FWIW - Scott Hatteberg was a multiple sport athlete in HS.

Baseball today has astronomical exit velos and power distance, players are much faster with sprint speed never being higher...on top of sprint speed fielding catch probability and radius have never been wider...and yeah, pitchers have never thrown harder. Legitimately everything about baseball is bigger, stronger, faster, and more athletic as well as more focused specialized skills as most baseball teams are using some in depth analytics.

Spot on. Im gonna say this until people get it, unless you’ve seen it you have no idea. Hand speed, arm strength, and catch radius Is what it comes down to. It is vastly superior to guys spanning back to when the game was invented. It’s true athleticism and hand eye coordination. You don’t realize it bc they make it look so easy.

 

[NC_Canes_11]

When you were talking about Moneyball, that "the bad-bodied hitter who walks a ton and hits" was Scott Hatteberg.

Evidence - look up speed score. You can see how much faster the league is getting before your very eyes in only a short period of time. In just 2015 there were 3 players with speed scores over 30, today there are 8. In 2015 just 37 players over 29 speed score, 2019 there were 58...and thats just in four seasons. You can go down the list. Brother, your thesis in this thread is so patently false asking someone to show evidence is kind of insulting. There is legitimately zero evidence for you to support this. Zero.

The Sport Gene is a book that outlines that while humans have not evolved, athletes have. Biologically, not really, no. However the athlete of today is much larger than that of athletes 100 years, 50 years ago, 25 years ago, etc in most sports...if there are some similar body types on average, its distributed differently - like the NBA for example. However, athletes of today have dramatically better access to specialized technology between the whistles and off the field/court...and understanding of nutrition, exercise, etc and it starts at a much younger age and is much more rigorous than it was in previous eras of sport...you like South Florida football, you clearly understand the nature v. nurture dynamic here.

Here is a quick article back to the NBA --

70 Years of Height Evolution in the NBA [4,504 players analyzed]

“You can’t teach height” - Red Auerbach We spent 2 months

runrepeat.com

A few notes --

"players are getting more agile and quicker to fit with the modern beyond-the-perimeter game."

When you compare the 7 footers of the Jordan or Bird/Magic Era whatever...

"From 2011/12 to 2017/18, NBA power forwards increased their per game 3PA by 327%."
"Over the same period, 7-footers increased the share of 3-point shots in total FGA from 4,6% up to 21.3%."

More great points. “Bad bodied hitters,” will always exist, but they are so much more athletic than they are given credit for. Manny, Papi, Prince Fielder, Domingo Santana, Panda, and plenty more would run circles around guys that looked like them years ago.

If you play up the middle there is a better than not chance you run a 7.0 or better 60. Guys like that weren’t flooding the league 10-20 years ago. If you don’t run that you better hit 40 homers or you’ll be selling insurance before you’re 25

 

[Coach Macho]

I think people often underestimate the athleticism of the past players.

The players AREN'T bigger, that's a fact. You can look it up. Average height/weight of each position hasn't changed in over 20 years. The next debate is, are they more explosive? No clue. There's no combine numbers to support that. The average vertical in the NBA is still a pathetic 28". Guess you gotta use the eye test, I don't know.

Big guys playing on the perimeter doesn't mean they're more athletic, it means they're MORE SKILLED. But they're not more skilled overall as basketball players. They've just traded skill in the paint for skill on the perimeter. While big men from the past were working on their post-game daily, today's big men work on their perimeter game. (hence the reason there is no post game in today's NBA) if the past big men devoted all of their time to a perimeter game, who's to say they wouldn't be just as good as today's big men on the perimeter? That's silly. Tell me what training innovations have come to basketball in the past 20 years that makes 6'9"-7'0" be able to handle the ball or shoot better on the perimeter. I'll listen.

Overall skill in today's NBA has fallen off. I don't even see how that's debatable. Only a person who didn't watch basketball in the 80s/90s would disagree with that. Guys like Bird and Jordan could embarrass you from every spot on the court. And it wasn't necessarily because they were more athletic, especially not in Bird's case. It was because they were more skilled. Their game was more balanced. Many of those old guys took way more pride in their craft. These dudes today just want to chuck up 3's and get easy dunks.
IT'S UNWATCHABLE for me.