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OT- Have athletes gotten worse in the NBA/MLB?

DMoney said:
Sabonis was old by the time he came here, but prime Sabonis is an example of the freak athletes at center who don’t exist anymore.

Since you mentioned Dirk, it’s a good time to discuss his teammate Steve Nash. He struggled until the rule changes of 2001 and didn’t explode until they got rid of handchecking in 2004.

In the 80s and 90s, it would be unthinkable that a short, non-athlete like Nash could win two MVPs. His ascendance is a microcosm of the trend toward skill and away from strength and athleticism.
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Nash is a direct descendant of Isaiah Thomas. Nash imitated his on the ground game. IT, although he wasn't a MVP, but was a top 5 player in the NBA for a long time like you know. Nash was a better shooter than IT but IT was the better athlete. Personally, I think hand checking rule gets way too play as the reason for so many changes. Nash exploded because he had a head coach from the future with a roster who loved to run with him and could also knockdown 3s. Jason Richardson, Quentin Richardson, Joe Johnson, Barbosa, Shawn Marion, Boris Diaw, Raja Bell, and Amare are some great teammates to have. Steve Nash could process the court faster than anyone else, and that increased pace & space game played to his strengths. D'Antoni gets more credit than the rule changes for Steve Nash's success in my book. Steve Nash had already shown promise before '01 but Don Nelson was starting Erick Strickland over him after Nash missed half of the 98-'99 season due to ankle injuries.

I'll say first and foremost that I think the bigmen of yesterday year were better, but today's centers are being asked to rim run to catch lobs, dribble handoffs, set a lot of screens, low amount of post ups, and now shoot 3s if you can. Completely different skill set. So they are still adjusting. But I don't think Ralph Sampson is a better athlete than Dwight Howard. How much better, if at all, of an athlete is Larry Nance Sr. compared to Larry Nance Jr.? Both Kevin McHale and Al Horford aren't wowing anyone athletically. How good of athletes are Vlade Divac, Elden Campbell, Mutuombo, Alonzo Mourning, and Shawn Bradley when comapred to Andre Drummond, Hassan Whiteside, Rudy Gobert, Nerlens Noel and Anthony Davis? Similar, greater, or worse? There are still some very strong athletes who play center. Here are a few:





 
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DMoney said:
A lot of great athletes aren’t making the league for that reason. They get stuck in the minors because their strengths are devalued.

Many are also playing other sports.
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But baseball has always been more about skill than raw athleticism. It doesn't matter how fast you run or how high you jump. If you can't hit a round ball with a round bat, you're worthless on the baseball diamond. There used to be a roster spot for pinch runner/ defensive substitution guys who were fast but couldn't hit but those skills have been determined less worthy than those of a guy who can mash. Just like football used to feature slow, powerful fullbacks who would lead their respective teams in rushing, there's no place for those guys anymore.
 
DMoney said:
I call that skill. Durant is built for basketball, especially the modern version. But he’s not more athletic than Malone if we are talking about speed, strength and explosiveness.
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Being laterally quick and functionally strong enough to guard 1-4 is more than skill. Sure, Malone is stronger than KD. Not sure about speed. Kevin Durant would explode by any power forward from that era. He’d foul then out trying to stay in front of him. That’s definitely athleticism.
 
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DTP said:
But baseball has always been more about skill than raw athleticism. It doesn't matter how fast you run or how high you jump. If you can't hit a round ball with a round bat, you're worthless on the baseball diamond. There used to be a roster spot for pinch runner/ defensive substitution guys who were fast but couldn't hit but those skills have been determined less worthy than those of a guy who can mash. Just like football used to feature slow, powerful fullbacks who would lead their respective teams in rushing, there's no place for those guys anymore.
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One of the complaints from ex-players, which I agree with, is that less contact is taking the athleticism out of the game. If everything is a walk, K or HR, there isn't as much need for athleticism in the field. Similarly, if steals aren't as important, a guy who is a C+ hitter and an A+ basestealer is going to lose his spot to a B- hitter.

This all has a downward impact on overall athleticism. The essence of the game is the same, but the tiebreakers favor skills other than athleticism.
 
Kyle Liburd said:
Like I said, let's not act like Terry Porter didn't give Stockton the business. Guy averaged 17 ppg in the regular season then gave Stockton 30 ppg in the playoffs and we're acting like he was Patrick Beverly while completely ignoring Stockton was sometimes matched up against bums like Robert Pack instead of Chris Paul and Damian Lillard every year. People still remember Stockton getting torched by Terry Porter because the other series he was guarding Vinny Del ***** and Robert Pack. When he went against KJ he got torched by him too.
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MAR lit His *** up too:

 
I’m not a big basketball guy so I really can’t comment on them but I can definitely say that baseball’s athleticism has gotten exponentially better.

It’s becoming more and more common to see multi sport guys Get drafted and hit the league than ever before plus pitchers are throwing harder and more accurate than before. You still have the “effectively wild” guys but even they are more athletic than before. Jeff Samardzija and Giancarlo Stanton are the most perfect examples of the top of my head. Jeff would’ve been the first WR off the board in ‘06 but removed his named from the NFL draft to play ball and Giancarlo was a top 10 TE coming out of highschool.
 
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Go Canes!! said:
Giant talent but seems soft and is stuck in a poorly put together team.
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Kinda off topic here but I believe that Philadelphia will never contend for a championship with their current roster because it was built on a losing culture. It's the downfall to tanking. You lose and lose and lose and acquire high lottery picks but when you bring in these young guys, you're bringing them in to a culture of losing. There's a reason certain teams are almost always in the playoffs and certain teams are terrible almost every year despite the fact that they keep drafting early.
 
Zbrod95 said:
Jeff Samardzija and Giancarlo Stanton are the most perfect examples of the top of my head. Jeff would’ve been the first WR off the board in ‘06 but removed his named from the NFL draft to play ball and Giancarlo was a top 10 TE coming out of highschool.
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But are those guys more likely to choose baseball now than before?

It seems a lot of athletes are choosing other sports (particularly in the African-American but not exclusively so).
 
DTP said:
Kinda off topic here but I believe that Philadelphia will never contend for a championship with their current roster because it was built on a losing culture. It's the downfall to tanking. You lose and lose and lose and acquire high lottery picks but when you bring in these young guys, you're bringing them in to a culture of losing. There's a reason certain teams are almost always in the playoffs and certain teams are terrible almost every year despite the fact that they keep drafting early.
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All those Process guys except Embiid are gone though. Ben Simmons didn't play their last losing year. First year he played they made it to the 2nd round. Al Horford, Matisse Thybulle, Mike Scott, Shake Milton, Josh Richardson, Tobias Harris were never apart of that losing culture. Neither was Jimmy or JJ Redick.

I agree with you that there is a downfall to tanking but you can still turn it around quick with two or three exceptional talents - Philly almost beating the NBA Champs or the Thunder in 2011-2012 - are prime examples. It's all about getting two top 20 players, no matter how you get them. Warriors didn't tank but still needed two mid lottery picks to start their run. Memphis getting Ja and Jaren in back to back years along with smart management turned their organization around pretty quickly.
 
Kyle Liburd said:
All those Process guys except Embiid are gone though. Ben Simmons didn't play their last losing year. First year he played they made it to the 2nd round. Al Horford, Matisse Thybulle, Mike Scott, Shake Milton, Josh Richardson, Tobias Harris were never apart of that losing culture. Neither was Jimmy or JJ Redick.
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Sixers need a Kemba-type who can create his own shot.

Personally, I would trade Embiid. Colangelo was right about him. Doesn’t have it between the ears to be a franchise guy.
 
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DMoney said:
Sixers need a Kemba-type who can create his own shot.

Personally, I would trade Embiid. Colangelo was right about him. Doesn’t have it between the ears to be a franchise guy.
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Josh Richardson hasn't played as well as they needed him too. Tough to be as productive when you're the fourth option instead of the first like he was with us. Shake Milton showed flashes of the type of backup point guard they needed before the suspension of the season.

I'm firing Brett Brown before trading either Simmons or Embiid. I think he has no idea what he is doing on offense. Simmons may be stronger mentally but Embiid is more talented. I think Coleangelo was right about his immaturity back then but wrong on Embiid in total. Side note, but Coleangelo sent out a lot of tweets about Masai that look dumb as **** right now. Said he couldn't evaluate and was living of his own ****tails, both hilariously wrong. A lot his Embiid's criticism was for chasing models and celebrities but Ben Simmons has been dating Kendall Jenner the last couple of years.

Embiid, Al Horford, Kawhi Leonard, and Bam Adebayo are the only guys I've seen that can stop Giannis. And you will likely have to go through Giannis for any championship in the next 8 years. Would give the Simmons/Embiid pair two more seasons bare minimum.

The plus/minus numbers for Embiid during the Toronto series were asinine. Don't know how you can get rid of that. You aren't going to get anything close to it.

The 76ers needed to hit on the Fultz draft pick or go after Malcolm Brogdon instead of Horford, although I see what Elton Brand was doing with the Horford pairing. Furkan Korkmaz can't do what Bellenli and JJ did for them. I still want to see them in the playoffs because a Simmons, Thybulle, Harris, Horford, Embiid lineup is causing all types of problems on the defensive end in the playoffs.
 
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DMoney said:
Sabonis was old by the time he came here, but prime Sabonis is an example of the freak athletes at center who don’t exist anymore.

Since you mentioned Dirk, it’s a good time to discuss his teammate Steve Nash. He struggled until the rule changes of 2001 and didn’t explode until they got rid of handchecking in 2004.

In the 80s and 90s, it would be unthinkable that a short, non-athlete like Nash could win two MVPs. His ascendance is a microcosm of the trend toward skill and away from strength and athleticism.
Click to expand...
Bam adebayo would like a word.... what combo center/power forward you know in that era could guard positions 1-5 effectively like bam does every game?
 
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Kyle Liburd said:
Josh Richardson hasn't played as well as they needed him too. Tough to be as productive when you're the fourth option instead of the first like he was with us. Shake Milton showed flashes of the type of backup point guard they needed before the suspension of the season.

I'm firing Brett Brown before trading either Simmons or Embiid. I think he has no idea what he is doing on offense. Simmons may be stronger mentally but Embiid is more talented. Additionally, Embiid, Al Horford, Kawhi Leonard, and Bam Adebayo are the only guys I've seen that can stop Giannis. And you will likely have to go through Giannis for any championship in the next 8 years. Would give the Simmons/Embiid pair two more seasons bare minimum.
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Richardson has been hurt at various times but i remember one game he did show closing ability I think In January or February vs the clippers where he had 16 points in the 4th where they won that game because of him
 
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DMoney said:
Sixers need a Kemba-type who can create his own shot.

Personally, I would trade Embiid. Colangelo was right about him. Doesn’t have it between the ears to be a franchise guy.
Click to expand...
DMoney said:
Sixers need a Kemba-type who can create his own shot.

Personally, I would trade Embiid. Colangelo was right about him. Doesn’t have it between the ears to be a franchise guy.
Click to expand...
Your star player can’t be afraid to shoot outside of the paint . Simmons need to seriously work on his game but he’s highly athletic, great passer and defender. If he ever developed a consistent shot he could be a top 10-15 player in the nba
 
DMoney said:
But are those guys more likely to choose baseball now than before?

It seems a lot of athletes are choosing other sports (particularly in the African-American but not exclusively so).
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Absolutely. Jeff probably has made about 120 million in his career and he’s been an above average starter at best. The money difference but career length is no where near the same when talking baseball to Football. Let me show you this as well.


www.mlb.com

Prospect Rankings

The Official Site of Major League Baseball
www.mlb.com www.mlb.com

Ten years ago there would’ve been 3 maybe 4 African Americans on this list but it keeps growing every year. That’s not even the list for current MLB prospects already drafted either.
 
brock said:
Bam adebayo would like a word.... what center you know in that era could guard positions 1-5 effectively like bam does every game?
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This is where there is a disconnect. The PFs back then were stronger than today’s centers.

Imagine Rodman at center. Or even Pippen. They would have no problem dealing with Bam and could switch everything.

Conversely, nobody today could deal with Hakeem or Shaq or David Robinson.
 
DTP said:
There’s probably more less athletic shooters in the modern NBA but it balances out because the stiffs and “enforcer” type players no longer exist. In the 80’s and 90’s the league was loaded with big guys who’s only skill was that they were tall. They couldn’t pass, they couldn’t shoot, they couldn’t dribble. They just clogged up the paint on defense and tried to grab occasional rebounds. Those guys don’t exist in the modern game.
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You needed 3 guys to waste fouls to send Shaq to the foul line.
 
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