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OT- Have athletes gotten worse in the NBA/MLB?

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Kyle Liburd said:
:pgdead:
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You are talking to the biggest Westbrook fan alive. I think he's great.

It's the analytics people who are ruining basketball that consider him a net negative. That's why his trade value was so low this offseason.
 
DMoney said:
Skilled, maybe. Athletic? No. Look at the All-NBA guards from the mid-90s. Jordan, Penny, Payton, Kevin Johnson, Drexler.

The least athletic guy is Stockton, and he is miles ahead of Curry, Kyrie and Trae Young as an on-ball, lateral defender.

And that’s just the guards. It’s unfair to compare an athlete like David Robinson to Nikola Jokic. Embiid stands out today, and there were at least 4 centers physically better than him back then.

We can all agree that shooting is more important than ever. You can’t have it all and, as someone who watched both eras, shooting is taking priority over athleticism and man-to-man defense.
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The problem is you're looking at guys at the top and confusing the lack of emphasis on athleticism for the skill.

John Wall is the fastest player end to end in the history of the game. De'Aron Fox might toast him. Russell Westbrook has already been discussed. Giannis is so absurdly big and athletic it takes him one dribble to get to half court. LeBron James is Karl Malone size.

Today, you talk about Joel Embiid and compare him to the centers of yesteryear, but you need to understand that C/PF sized players today aren't banging inside or taking mid-range 2s...they are all over the court and gunning all game long.

Legitimate centers today are chucking up 3s with everyone else (example: Brook Lopez lol)
 
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Ethnicsands said:
Good question. I have said for 3 decades now that the move to the 3 pt shot in basketball changed the game in ways that left to less talented overall players. The whole game was about getting the best mid-range shots originally, because that’s where the odds were. And that meant using the backboard, posting, turnarounds, and passing in the lane. It also meant mid-sized guys were critical. When the rules paid off for chucking up 3s, it went to outside in, smaller shooters and inside cloggers. Ripples through defense, too. Add on the defense changes that reduced contact, and again you give run to technical skill over athletic ability, imo. The sad thing is, I don’t know who benefitted rom these changes. Basketball is much more painful to watch today than back in the ‘80s-90s.

Baseball is similar, whether it is from drugs, equipment changes or training changes (likely all 3), long ball changed the sport from what it was in the 60s-80s. And yes, overall speed and athletic ability took a back seat to power and arm. But it made it better for TV, and that’s why it happened.
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I've never been big baseball fan, but the last Marlin World Series team was exciting. Lot of small ball, great pitching and good defense. My favorite play was Rodriquez dropping a pitch and leaving in on the ground daring the runner on second base to run. Haven't watch that much baseball but that was a "make my day" moment. He was heck of an athlete.
 
Go Canes!! said:
Baseball has become looking for a pitch in a certain zone, then swing as hard as possible, hoping to make contact.

There is zero stigma about striking out anymore.

Stanton has 1100 hits and 1300 strikeouts.
Trout has 1300 hits and 1100 strikeouts.

By contrast:

Ted Williams had 2600 hits and 700 strikeouts.
Tony Gwynn had 3100 hits and 400 strikeouts.

Young players know if they can hit 25-35 long balls a year they'er going to get paid. It doesn't matter one bit if they strike out 200 times while doing it.
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An out is an out..... but then I'm an Oakland A's fan, so I would say that.
 
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DMoney said:
Human beings have not evolved in 25 years. There were elite athletes back then, too. That's why it's important to note what is emphasized, and what isn't.

In basketball, it has become more of a European game. It is no coincidence Europeans like Doncic and Jokic (who lack explosive athleticism) are having so much more success. They used to get eaten alive.
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Arvydas Sabonis, Kukoc, and Dirk all had success in their day. EuroLeague/ACB games and FIBA games are actually much more physical with a lot less spacing. They still keep their 4 man in the lane a lot more often than NBA teams do as well. That's why Doncic said it was easier to score in today's NBA vs Euroleague.

100% agree on human being not having evolved back in 25 years which is why I think you asked a good question. But in 25 years, America has gotten 50 more million people and increased their talent base by tapping into Africa while the game has grown more popular in South America, Europe, and Asia.

You're acting as if all the elite scorers were elite athletes by constantly naming the top guys. Sean Elliot, Kenny Anderson, Damon Stoudamire, and others weren't special athletes giving dudes buckets too.

DMoney said:
You are talking to the biggest Westbrook fan alive. I think he's great.

It's the analytics people who are ruining basketball that consider him a net negative. That's why his trade value was so low this offseason.
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His trade value was low because he had 3 years 130m left and was on the wrong side of thirty. Analytics nerds (lot of whom aren't working for NBA teams nor are NBA decision makers) crap on him, but the assistant coaches still made him as an all-star. The Lord of the analytic nerds, Daryl Morey, traded for him and gave up two first round picks! I love Russ too, but for all you talked about athleticism and defense - Russ has had trouble staying in front of so many of the elite guards in the league. And I was laughing because it's a strawman to equate analytics not valuing him besides his athleticism, they don't value him because his high turnovers, bad shot selection (4-6 threes a game at below 30%), he couldn't get it done with Durant (Russ gets too much of the blame IMO), and he could not get out of the first round with Paul George.

Again I like Russ, but we are just two years removed from rookie year Donovan Mitchell (another athletic guard that shows today's depth) torching him and sending him home. Why trade for a max player who couldn't make it to the 2nd round two years in a row? Shot a combined 38% from the field with 5 turnovers a game against the Jazz and the Blazers. Those are just counting stats not analytics. This year's version of Russ is the best we've seen this in a few years.
 
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We the Boss said:
The nba defensive game today is light years more athletic with the quick switching.

The NBA historically isn’t as athletic when looking at twitch which you can see in standing verticals jumps and the adjusted running at their combined vs NFL.
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This x100. Dudes did not have to move as much on defense back in the day. Point guards have to face a lot more pick and rolls than those in the 90s.

The underlined is an indisputable fact. I have a theory that because so many NBA players can dunk since they were 12-14 years old and use their length to soar they don't focus enough on their lower body. Basically their early development backfires. Once you reach that goal of dunking, you're working on other skills that you don't spend enough time on your body. There are already a bunch of inflexible players limiting their potential. A guy like Ja Morant can fly but he got that way through extensive lower body workouts. He could not dunk until his junior or senior year of high school. A player who is 6'5-6'10 wouldn't feel the need to work on their lower body like Ja.

Another reason I think NFL players are more athletic is because they are in the weight room a lot more from 14-21 than NBA players are at that age.
 
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Kyle Liburd said:
Arvydas Sabonis, Kukoc, and Dirk all had success in their day.
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Sabonis was old by the time he came here, but prime Sabonis is an example of the freak athletes at center who don’t exist anymore.

Since you mentioned Dirk, it’s a good time to discuss his teammate Steve Nash. He struggled until the rule changes of 2001 and didn’t explode until they got rid of handchecking in 2004.

In the 80s and 90s, it would be unthinkable that a short, non-athlete like Nash could win two MVPs. His ascendance is a microcosm of the trend toward skill and away from strength and athleticism.
 
DMoney said:
KD is not a freak athlete. He has elite skill at his length, which makes him great.

He tested as one of the worst athletes in combine history.

www.espn.com

Report: Durant's pre-draft workout fails to impress

Kevin Durant wowed NBA teams in his one college season at Texas. At last week's pre-draft camp? Not so much, according to a confidential draft camp report obtained by The Seattle Times.
www.espn.com www.espn.com
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He’s 7 feet with the fluidity of a guard off the dribble. “Testing” is not everything in basketball. These guys don’t prepare for testing drills like football players do. It’s virtually irrelevant to how good of a basketball player you’ll be.
 
BoxingRobes said:
It is not lost on me that this thread also put MLB players in this conversation, to which I still find the premise absolutely ridiculous.

The emphasis on skill and specialization does not take away the athleticism that these athletes have.
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Exactly. Players aren't worse athletes now, it's just that managers have realized stealing bases doesn't do much to help your team win but hitting home runs makes a huge impact. Guys that might have been slap hitters years ago are swinging for the fences now. That's probably the biggest difference between baseball 30 years ago and today. There's always been premier power guys but back in the day, if you weren't a power guy, you focused more on batting average and putting the ball in play. Nowadays, even guys with little pop are still trying to hit the ball out of the park. Is the game better or worse for it? I don't know. Homeruns are great but the game is so slogged down because everyone either homers or strikes out, you miss a lot of the action.
 
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DMoney said:
Had this discussion with some friends and wanted to bring it to the board: Have players gotten less athletic in the NBA and MLB since the 1980s and 1990s?

Football players have gotten more athletic since the rules began favoring passing. But in basketball, the rules have been favoring more of a European game based on shooting and less man-to-man defense. Stars like Curry, Harden and Doncic are extremely skilled but only average athletes by NBA standards. Would a player like Duncan Robinson survive in the 80s and 90s with the amount of minutes he plays?

Same in MLB. The game is phasing out steals and there is less contact, which means less athletic defense. Walks and homers are king. Has the game lost athleticism?
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I get where you're going with this and think it's an interesting debate.

I think you're underestimating the amount of PG's that were really good as below the rim guys 25 years ago - Gary Payton, Mark Jackson, Terrell Brandon, Mark Price, Rod Strickland, Damon Stoudamire, Greg Anthony, Avery Johnson, etc. Is Trae Young any different now than Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf was then?

Perception is also another wild card - as you pointed out Kevin Durant didn't test well as an athlete (but is considered athletic), but you point out James Harden as a average athlete even though he tested great athletically (even though he just looks kind of fat)

I think it's also not just shooting 3's - it's also 3&D - longs guys that are athletic enough to switch and defend multiple positions while being able to shoot 3's.

I would say if you're just comparing the top guys, there's more athletic freaks in the game today - LeBron, Giannis, Westbrook, Zion, AD, etc.

And I think if you look at full starting lineups for teams then vs now - there's a lot more players you'd forget about from them that really weren't great athletes that played major roles on teams.
 
We the Boss said:
The nba defensive game today is light years more athletic with the quick switching.
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Swingmen were stronger, tougher and more explosive back then. Switching favors their talents.

Take the 1996 Bulls. If modern teams played small with them, they would move Rodman to C and Kukoc to PF with Harper/Jordan/Pippen on the perimeter. That would be the best switching team in history.
 
AllAboutTheU said:
He’s 7 feet with the fluidity of a guard off the dribble. “Testing” is not everything in basketball. These guys don’t prepare for testing drills like football players do. It’s virtually irrelevant to how good of a basketball player you’ll be.
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The discussion is not who is better. Durant is a better basketball player than Malone.

But if they had a decathlon or any other athletic competition, Malone would absolutely bury him.
 
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DMoney said:
The discussion is not who is better. Durant is a better basketball player than Malone.

But if they had a decathlon or any other athletic competition, Malone would absolutely bury him.
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A decathlon is the metric you’re using to measure who is the better athlete? Kevin Durant’s movements at his size are extremely athletic. I’m not sure how that point is being missed. He moves like a guard but he’s 7 feet tall. That’s athleticism. Who would win a decathlon is completely irrelevant here.
 
AllAboutTheU said:
A decathlon is the metric you’re using to measure who is the better athlete? Kevin Durant’s movements at his size are extremely athletic. I’m not sure how that point is being missed. He moves like a guard but he’s 7 feet tall. That’s athleticism. Who would win a decathlon is completely irrelevant here.
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I call that skill. Durant is built for basketball, especially the modern version. But he’s not more athletic than Malone if we are talking about speed, strength and explosiveness.
 
DTP said:
Players aren't worse athletes now, it's just that managers have realized stealing bases doesn't do much to help your team win but hitting home runs makes a huge impact. Guys that might have been slap hitters years ago are swinging for the fences now.
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A lot of great athletes aren’t making the league for that reason. They get stuck in the minors because their strengths are devalued.

Many are also playing other sports.
 
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