OT (But Not Really): NCAA - Is it all Tumbling Down?

[Republicane]

Okay then, for the sake of greater understanding: How much do you think a college football player should be paid?

Still waiting for you to answer the question I posed previously. How many billions would the NCAA have to make before you would be in favor of schools paying their athletes? Because unless you're simply an amateurism zealot you must have a number that would be acceptable to you.

Oh we are going to start answering questions?

"How many billions would the NCAA have to make before you would be in favor of schools paying their athletes?"
Answer: ZERO dollars, I think the NCAA adds no value to college football, no more than could be done otherwise. (An understanding reading of my earlier posts would have revealed that.)

So I ask again: How much do you think a college football player should be paid?
(Keep in mind the player would be an employee of the school, not the NCAA.)

What is your personal interest in how much athletes are paid, are you on scholarship?
(This is a simple question, it is not a logical statement.)

How much should college athletes be paid? How much should an NHL player be paid? How much should an MLB player be paid? It's dependent on a myriad of factors. All I want is the player to have the opportunity to be compensated at a level they feel is fair as opposed to being stuck in a system that conspires to keep them penniless.

So you answered ONE of my questions with you don't know. So what's keeping them in the system that conspires to keep them "penniless?" If they want to be paid why don't they do what players in the NHL and MLB do?

You're right, I should be able to come up with a number that is fair for the thousands of players at hundreds of schools in fifty different states. I'm afraid you'll need to be more specific about what the NHL and MLB do? Organize?

 

[Chuckles]

Still waiting for you to answer the question I posed previously. How many billions would the NCAA have to make before you would be in favor of schools paying their athletes? Because unless you're simply an amateurism zealot you must have a number that would be acceptable to you.

Oh we are going to start answering questions?

"How many billions would the NCAA have to make before you would be in favor of schools paying their athletes?"
Answer: ZERO dollars, I think the NCAA adds no value to college football, no more than could be done otherwise. (An understanding reading of my earlier posts would have revealed that.)

So I ask again: How much do you think a college football player should be paid?
(Keep in mind the player would be an employee of the school, not the NCAA.)

What is your personal interest in how much athletes are paid, are you on scholarship?
(This is a simple question, it is not a logical statement.)

How much should college athletes be paid? How much should an NHL player be paid? How much should an MLB player be paid? It's dependent on a myriad of factors. All I want is the player to have the opportunity to be compensated at a level they feel is fair as opposed to being stuck in a system that conspires to keep them penniless.

So you answered ONE of my questions with you don't know. So what's keeping them in the system that conspires to keep them "penniless?" If they want to be paid why don't they do what players in the NHL and MLB do?

You're right, I should be able to come up with a number that is fair for the thousands of players at hundreds of schools in fifty different states. I'm afraid you'll need to be more specific about what the NHL and MLB do? Organize?

You don't know what the NHL and MLB does, but you brought it up? What's so difficult about the other question?

CFB athletes should be paid whatever the market will pay.
CFB should facilitate them by providing all the necessary resources at no cost.

That was two logical statements. Thanks, I've learned a lot from this discussion!

 

[poncho0091]

you want to fix all this ? np allow players that are 18+ be able to register for the draft! that simple!

don't pay the players ANYTHING... BUT allow them to be able to register for the draft as long as they are 18+
players who are good enough to play for the NFL right out of HS (VERY few are) they will the ones that aren't will value the college educate much more!

you think Johnn Football would of cared about the NCAA if this was in place? as soon as the won the heisman he could of declared for the draft and started printing out "Johnny Football" tshirts and made $$$

The problem with this argument is the NFL does not want it (same case as NBA). The players are not mature enough mentally or physically. How many kids do you think coming out of high school honestly believe they are good enough for the NFL. How many will not get drafted and then cannot go to college, because of it.

At this point, a stipend is the best answer to me, but it has to be the same for all schools and it has to be affordable for all schools. Anything else will turn college football into the big 6 (big 5 now).

thats the great part though.. right now so many players look at college as this annoying place to go before they make money at the NFL.. vs appreciate college and take advantage.

so if this 5star hotshot realized he isn't good enough for any NFL team to pick him up.. he will work much harder in college and maybe focus a bit more on that degree just in case.. also if after a year he proves to be ready.. no need to risk injury and enters draft

In a perfect world, those athletes would be smart enough to figure that out. In real life, there's a good chance he ends up working at mcdonalds or hustling on the streets somewhere.

Under this premise, most US children see any schooling as an annoying place before they start their adult life. Should we let them all make the decision to stop going to school as well? There's a reason this system was put in place in the first place. Adults made these decisions way back to help enrich these young men's lives, not to make money. Circumstances have changed that it is making money, but do we really think they are worse off because they are "forced" to get a college education? Yes I understand some of these guys don't even go to class, but that's the corruption of the university itself, not the fault of the system.

Since when is 18-21 or 22 a child? Seems like you are very much in favor of a patriarchal elite that dictates what individuals do based on the fact these elites "know" better than you!

Help enrich these young men's lives??? It has always been (well perhaps not back in the initial days of CFB and/or the NCAA) about the money and how the NCAA and colleges can keep the most they possibly can.

LOL you tried to discredit the point and then agreed with it. In the beginning it did not start as something to be profitable. Please tell me when college football became about money. Tell me exactly when college football became the premier money maker. Tell me when attempting to become an athlete became the norm instead of the exception. Oh thats right, its around the time when athletes started making big money and sports became about big money. Last I checked, college football started well before it became about money.

As far as the rest, how many 18 year olds do you know that know exactly what is a wise choice. I bet you knew all the answers when you were 18. That's fine if you want them to be responsible for themselves at 18, but then they will get no help from anyone when they are 25 and broke with no future career prospect, because "forcing" them to go to college is so harsh and unnecessary. Let's let them go play in a sport with men who are twice their size, because they are not developed out of high school (I bet you're one of the people who say Al gets 4 more years, because his young guys are not big enough to play in college), because the doctors who know better are just trying to tell them what to do. Then after they fail, because they were not ready or have a career ending injury, because they were not physically ready, they can go start a career at mcdonalds and protest for $15/hr to work in the drive through assuming they even do that. Better yet, they can just receive free government services and contribute nothing back to society.

 

[poncho0091]

I'd be willing to bet half the people who want these player to get paid this level of compensation also want minimum wage to get raised to $15 to be fair. Of course they don't consider the consequences of these changes, but whatever.

Nope, wrong. I think the minimum wage is one of the worst economic policies and totally counterproductive to its intended goals.

In fact, people using your logic are more like supporters of a minimum wage. You support an arbitrary level of compensation for a CFB player regardless of their skill level or value. Who are you to say that what a CFB player receives now as a "benefit" is adequate compensation?

I support free markets determining the value of goods and services (which is the exact opposite of the current NCAA/CFB system).

Good, then you support the players establishing their own league that pays its own way!

They are already providing a service now for which they may not be adequately compensated because of the rules of the NCAA. Another league has nothing to do with the value of a CFB player.

They have other options. They can go play in the CFL or arena league until they are eligible for the NFL if they want different compensation. End of discussion.

 

[kmwcane]

The problem with this argument is the NFL does not want it (same case as NBA). The players are not mature enough mentally or physically. How many kids do you think coming out of high school honestly believe they are good enough for the NFL. How many will not get drafted and then cannot go to college, because of it.

At this point, a stipend is the best answer to me, but it has to be the same for all schools and it has to be affordable for all schools. Anything else will turn college football into the big 6 (big 5 now).

thats the great part though.. right now so many players look at college as this annoying place to go before they make money at the NFL.. vs appreciate college and take advantage.

so if this 5star hotshot realized he isn't good enough for any NFL team to pick him up.. he will work much harder in college and maybe focus a bit more on that degree just in case.. also if after a year he proves to be ready.. no need to risk injury and enters draft

In a perfect world, those athletes would be smart enough to figure that out. In real life, there's a good chance he ends up working at mcdonalds or hustling on the streets somewhere.

Under this premise, most US children see any schooling as an annoying place before they start their adult life. Should we let them all make the decision to stop going to school as well? There's a reason this system was put in place in the first place. Adults made these decisions way back to help enrich these young men's lives, not to make money. Circumstances have changed that it is making money, but do we really think they are worse off because they are "forced" to get a college education? Yes I understand some of these guys don't even go to class, but that's the corruption of the university itself, not the fault of the system.

Since when is 18-21 or 22 a child? Seems like you are very much in favor of a patriarchal elite that dictates what individuals do based on the fact these elites "know" better than you!

Help enrich these young men's lives??? It has always been (well perhaps not back in the initial days of CFB and/or the NCAA) about the money and how the NCAA and colleges can keep the most they possibly can.

LOL you tried to discredit the point and then agreed with it. In the beginning it did not start as something to be profitable. Please tell me when college football became about money. Tell me exactly when college football became the premier money maker. Tell me when attempting to become an athlete became the norm instead of the exception. Oh thats right, its around the time when athletes started making big money and sports became about big money. Last I checked, college football started well before it became about money.

As far as the rest, how many 18 year olds do you know that know exactly what is a wise choice. I bet you knew all the answers when you were 18. That's fine if you want them to be responsible for themselves at 18, but then they will get no help from anyone when they are 25 and broke with no future career prospect, because "forcing" them to go to college is so harsh and unnecessary. Let's let them go play in a sport with men who are twice their size, because they are not developed out of high school (I bet you're one of the people who say Al gets 4 more years, because his young guys are not big enough to play in college), because the doctors who know better are just trying to tell them what to do. Then after they fail, because they were not ready or have a career ending injury, because they were not physically ready, they can go start a career at mcdonalds and protest for $15/hr to work in the drive through assuming they even do that. Better yet, they can just receive free government services and contribute nothing back to society.

Well no, I didn't agree with you point at all. I'd assume CFB became about money when colleges and the NCAA first made a profit. But the actual date isn't important and is just a way to try and bog down the real point: CFB is today a billion dollar business.

18 years old is the age of majority. If you can be drafted, you should be allowed to make your own decisions concerning your life. Just because you think an 18 year can't make their own decisions doesn't mean they all can't. Not sure why you think it's okay to control what other adults do. And so what if they mess up? That is life, people mess. Can't nanny or control people forever.

 

[poncho0091]

thats the great part though.. right now so many players look at college as this annoying place to go before they make money at the NFL.. vs appreciate college and take advantage.

so if this 5star hotshot realized he isn't good enough for any NFL team to pick him up.. he will work much harder in college and maybe focus a bit more on that degree just in case.. also if after a year he proves to be ready.. no need to risk injury and enters draft

In a perfect world, those athletes would be smart enough to figure that out. In real life, there's a good chance he ends up working at mcdonalds or hustling on the streets somewhere.

Under this premise, most US children see any schooling as an annoying place before they start their adult life. Should we let them all make the decision to stop going to school as well? There's a reason this system was put in place in the first place. Adults made these decisions way back to help enrich these young men's lives, not to make money. Circumstances have changed that it is making money, but do we really think they are worse off because they are "forced" to get a college education? Yes I understand some of these guys don't even go to class, but that's the corruption of the university itself, not the fault of the system.

Since when is 18-21 or 22 a child? Seems like you are very much in favor of a patriarchal elite that dictates what individuals do based on the fact these elites "know" better than you!

Help enrich these young men's lives??? It has always been (well perhaps not back in the initial days of CFB and/or the NCAA) about the money and how the NCAA and colleges can keep the most they possibly can.

LOL you tried to discredit the point and then agreed with it. In the beginning it did not start as something to be profitable. Please tell me when college football became about money. Tell me exactly when college football became the premier money maker. Tell me when attempting to become an athlete became the norm instead of the exception. Oh thats right, its around the time when athletes started making big money and sports became about big money. Last I checked, college football started well before it became about money.

As far as the rest, how many 18 year olds do you know that know exactly what is a wise choice. I bet you knew all the answers when you were 18. That's fine if you want them to be responsible for themselves at 18, but then they will get no help from anyone when they are 25 and broke with no future career prospect, because "forcing" them to go to college is so harsh and unnecessary. Let's let them go play in a sport with men who are twice their size, because they are not developed out of high school (I bet you're one of the people who say Al gets 4 more years, because his young guys are not big enough to play in college), because the doctors who know better are just trying to tell them what to do. Then after they fail, because they were not ready or have a career ending injury, because they were not physically ready, they can go start a career at mcdonalds and protest for $15/hr to work in the drive through assuming they even do that. Better yet, they can just receive free government services and contribute nothing back to society.

Well no, I didn't agree with you point at all. I'd assume CFB became about money when colleges and the NCAA first made a profit. But the actual date isn't important and is just a way to try and bog down the real point: CFB is today a billion dollar business.

18 years old is the age of majority. If you can be drafted, you should be allowed to make your own decisions concerning your life. Just because you think an 18 year can't make their own decisions doesn't mean they all can't. Not sure why you think it's okay to control what other adults do. And so what if they mess up? That is life, people mess. Can't nanny or control people forever.

Actually, when it became about money is the point, because the point was them going to college before the NFL helps them enrich their lives and you did agree with it. I'll quote it for you. "Help enrich these young men's lives??? It has always been (well perhaps not back in the initial days of CFB and/or the NCAA) about the money and how the NCAA and colleges can keep the most they possibly can." Look at high school sports. Do you think the schools do that for a profit? No, its an extracurricular activity. When college football started, do you think it was intended as a major business? Do you think those people back in the 1800's thought college football was going to be what it is today? You think they really had that much foresight?

18 years old is the age of adulthood, but funny, because you can't drink until you're 21. I guess "the man" doesn't know, and should just let them get trashed at 18, because they know everything by 18. I never said an 18 year old can't make a decision. I said 18 year olds tend to think they know more than they do. Some make great decisions, but the majority don't. I never said we needed to control them or nanny them, but lets not set them up for failure when in most cases they are not mature enough to make proper decisions.

 

[kmwcane]

In a perfect world, those athletes would be smart enough to figure that out. In real life, there's a good chance he ends up working at mcdonalds or hustling on the streets somewhere.

Under this premise, most US children see any schooling as an annoying place before they start their adult life. Should we let them all make the decision to stop going to school as well? There's a reason this system was put in place in the first place. Adults made these decisions way back to help enrich these young men's lives, not to make money. Circumstances have changed that it is making money, but do we really think they are worse off because they are "forced" to get a college education? Yes I understand some of these guys don't even go to class, but that's the corruption of the university itself, not the fault of the system.

Since when is 18-21 or 22 a child? Seems like you are very much in favor of a patriarchal elite that dictates what individuals do based on the fact these elites "know" better than you!

Help enrich these young men's lives??? It has always been (well perhaps not back in the initial days of CFB and/or the NCAA) about the money and how the NCAA and colleges can keep the most they possibly can.

LOL you tried to discredit the point and then agreed with it. In the beginning it did not start as something to be profitable. Please tell me when college football became about money. Tell me exactly when college football became the premier money maker. Tell me when attempting to become an athlete became the norm instead of the exception. Oh thats right, its around the time when athletes started making big money and sports became about big money. Last I checked, college football started well before it became about money.

As far as the rest, how many 18 year olds do you know that know exactly what is a wise choice. I bet you knew all the answers when you were 18. That's fine if you want them to be responsible for themselves at 18, but then they will get no help from anyone when they are 25 and broke with no future career prospect, because "forcing" them to go to college is so harsh and unnecessary. Let's let them go play in a sport with men who are twice their size, because they are not developed out of high school (I bet you're one of the people who say Al gets 4 more years, because his young guys are not big enough to play in college), because the doctors who know better are just trying to tell them what to do. Then after they fail, because they were not ready or have a career ending injury, because they were not physically ready, they can go start a career at mcdonalds and protest for $15/hr to work in the drive through assuming they even do that. Better yet, they can just receive free government services and contribute nothing back to society.

Well no, I didn't agree with you point at all. I'd assume CFB became about money when colleges and the NCAA first made a profit. But the actual date isn't important and is just a way to try and bog down the real point: CFB is today a billion dollar business.

18 years old is the age of majority. If you can be drafted, you should be allowed to make your own decisions concerning your life. Just because you think an 18 year can't make their own decisions doesn't mean they all can't. Not sure why you think it's okay to control what other adults do. And so what if they mess up? That is life, people mess. Can't nanny or control people forever.

Actually, when it became about money is the point, because the point was them going to college before the NFL helps them enrich their lives and you did agree with it. I'll quote it for you. "Help enrich these young men's lives??? It has always been (well perhaps not back in the initial days of CFB and/or the NCAA) about the money and how the NCAA and colleges can keep the most they possibly can." Look at high school sports. Do you think the schools do that for a profit? No, its an extracurricular activity. When college football started, do you think it was intended as a major business? Do you think those people back in the 1800's thought college football was going to be what it is today? You think they really had that much foresight?

18 years old is the age of adulthood, but funny, because you can't drink until you're 21. I guess "the man" doesn't know, and should just let them get trashed at 18, because they know everything by 18. I never said an 18 year old can't make a decision. I said 18 year olds tend to think they know more than they do. Some make great decisions, but the majority don't. I never said we needed to control them or nanny them, but lets not set them up for failure when in most cases they are not mature enough to make proper decisions.

Why does it matter when it became about money? So what if it was not about money in the 1800s? What does that have to do with how things are now? Of course the creators of college football had no idea it would become a billion dollar business. But it did. And the NCAA and colleges made **** sure the rules were constructed and adapted to keep all the money to themselves as CFB grew into the business it is today. Not really sure how that is debatable.

Why shouldn't someone be allowed to drink when they hit the age of majority? So in order to not set them up for failure, they shouldn't be allowed to make their market value playing CFB? Sounds awfully controlling to me.

 

[Chuckles]

ponch, I think were debating with a couple of guys not far from the age of eighteen who think a specious argument has something to do with space. Ain't no convincin 'em :ibisroflmao:

 

[poncho0091]

Since when is 18-21 or 22 a child? Seems like you are very much in favor of a patriarchal elite that dictates what individuals do based on the fact these elites "know" better than you!

Help enrich these young men's lives??? It has always been (well perhaps not back in the initial days of CFB and/or the NCAA) about the money and how the NCAA and colleges can keep the most they possibly can.

LOL you tried to discredit the point and then agreed with it. In the beginning it did not start as something to be profitable. Please tell me when college football became about money. Tell me exactly when college football became the premier money maker. Tell me when attempting to become an athlete became the norm instead of the exception. Oh thats right, its around the time when athletes started making big money and sports became about big money. Last I checked, college football started well before it became about money.

As far as the rest, how many 18 year olds do you know that know exactly what is a wise choice. I bet you knew all the answers when you were 18. That's fine if you want them to be responsible for themselves at 18, but then they will get no help from anyone when they are 25 and broke with no future career prospect, because "forcing" them to go to college is so harsh and unnecessary. Let's let them go play in a sport with men who are twice their size, because they are not developed out of high school (I bet you're one of the people who say Al gets 4 more years, because his young guys are not big enough to play in college), because the doctors who know better are just trying to tell them what to do. Then after they fail, because they were not ready or have a career ending injury, because they were not physically ready, they can go start a career at mcdonalds and protest for $15/hr to work in the drive through assuming they even do that. Better yet, they can just receive free government services and contribute nothing back to society.

Well no, I didn't agree with you point at all. I'd assume CFB became about money when colleges and the NCAA first made a profit. But the actual date isn't important and is just a way to try and bog down the real point: CFB is today a billion dollar business.

18 years old is the age of majority. If you can be drafted, you should be allowed to make your own decisions concerning your life. Just because you think an 18 year can't make their own decisions doesn't mean they all can't. Not sure why you think it's okay to control what other adults do. And so what if they mess up? That is life, people mess. Can't nanny or control people forever.

Actually, when it became about money is the point, because the point was them going to college before the NFL helps them enrich their lives and you did agree with it. I'll quote it for you. "Help enrich these young men's lives??? It has always been (well perhaps not back in the initial days of CFB and/or the NCAA) about the money and how the NCAA and colleges can keep the most they possibly can." Look at high school sports. Do you think the schools do that for a profit? No, its an extracurricular activity. When college football started, do you think it was intended as a major business? Do you think those people back in the 1800's thought college football was going to be what it is today? You think they really had that much foresight?

18 years old is the age of adulthood, but funny, because you can't drink until you're 21. I guess "the man" doesn't know, and should just let them get trashed at 18, because they know everything by 18. I never said an 18 year old can't make a decision. I said 18 year olds tend to think they know more than they do. Some make great decisions, but the majority don't. I never said we needed to control them or nanny them, but lets not set them up for failure when in most cases they are not mature enough to make proper decisions.

Why does it matter when it became about money? So what if it was not about money in the 1800s? What does that have to do with how things are now? Of course the creators of college football had no idea it would become a billion dollar business. But it did. And the NCAA and colleges made **** sure the rules were constructed and adapted to keep all the money to themselves as CFB grew into the business it is today. Not really sure how that is debatable.

Why shouldn't someone be allowed to drink when they hit the age of majority? So in order to not set them up for failure, they shouldn't be allowed to make their market value playing CFB? Sounds awfully controlling to me.

It matters when it became about money, because in the beginning it was not about money and secondly, you said it was always about money (which you then corrected to say "maybe not in the beginning"). So why shouldn't high school athletes be allowed to market themselves? Let's just break it down all the way. Do you know how much money Lebron could have made in high school? Are you going to come back when High School is a big money maker and say it was always about the money? That's why it matters "when" it became about money.

As far as not allowing them to make their market value, that is a moot point. They have alternative options in the CFL and arena league if they want to make their fair value right away. If all these college athletes with star power just left right now and went to the CFL, the CFL might become an actual contender for the NFL and would make more money. Then they could pay the athletes more money and more athletes would go there.

 

[poncho0091]

ponch, I think were debating with a couple of guys not far from the age of eighteen who think a specious argument has something to do with space. Ain't no convincin 'em :ibisroflmao:

People don't seem to understand that life does not happen in a vacuum of time.

 

[kmwcane]

ponch, I think were debating with a couple of guys not far from the age of eighteen who think a specious argument has something to do with space. Ain't no convincin 'em :ibisroflmao:

And this is when you know someone gives up!

 

[Chuckles]

ponch, I think were debating with a couple of guys not far from the age of eighteen who think a specious argument has something to do with space. Ain't no convincin 'em :ibisroflmao:

And this is when you know someone gives up!

When you get laughed at?

Get back to me when your specious theoretical points become reality. Maybe I'll reward you with a beer when you turn 21.

Here's a recap of our enlightening dialectic:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOHGr8r5Cs4