OT (But Not Really): NCAA - Is it all Tumbling Down?

[poncho0091]

I'd be willing to bet half the people who want these player to get paid this level of compensation also want minimum wage to get raised to $15 to be fair. Of course they don't consider the consequences of these changes, but whatever.

 

[eliteproxy]

you want to fix all this ? np allow players that are 18+ be able to register for the draft! that simple!

don't pay the players ANYTHING... BUT allow them to be able to register for the draft as long as they are 18+
players who are good enough to play for the NFL right out of HS (VERY few are) they will the ones that aren't will value the college educate much more!

you think Johnn Football would of cared about the NCAA if this was in place? as soon as the won the heisman he could of declared for the draft and started printing out "Johnny Football" tshirts and made $$$

The problem with this argument is the NFL does not want it (same case as NBA). The players are not mature enough mentally or physically. How many kids do you think coming out of high school honestly believe they are good enough for the NFL. How many will not get drafted and then cannot go to college, because of it.

At this point, a stipend is the best answer to me, but it has to be the same for all schools and it has to be affordable for all schools. Anything else will turn college football into the big 6 (big 5 now).

thats the great part though.. right now so many players look at college as this annoying place to go before they make money at the NFL.. vs appreciate college and take advantage.

so if this 5star hotshot realized he isn't good enough for any NFL team to pick him up.. he will work much harder in college and maybe focus a bit more on that degree just in case.. also if after a year he proves to be ready.. no need to risk injury and enters draft

 

[freespirted305]

The one reality no one talks about is Title IX and the harsh reality that colleges must provide approximately equal representation, money and resources to women's sports. Women's sports are huge losers for schools. This creates huge expenses for colleges and universities and is the only basis for why I would support the current system with an additional stipend.

In the future, if athletes want fair compensation than Title IX and women's sports will have to be abolished or else college sports would fail.
Also more unfair bull**** is that a lot of schools fund athletic costs through general tuition fees. See this link: http://businessofcollegesports.com/...t-fees-to-support-athletic-department-budget/. So under this logic provided by the players, than I think schools legally should be adjoined from subsidizing there athletic costs from general students.

 

[poncho0091]

you want to fix all this ? np allow players that are 18+ be able to register for the draft! that simple!

don't pay the players ANYTHING... BUT allow them to be able to register for the draft as long as they are 18+
players who are good enough to play for the NFL right out of HS (VERY few are) they will the ones that aren't will value the college educate much more!

you think Johnn Football would of cared about the NCAA if this was in place? as soon as the won the heisman he could of declared for the draft and started printing out "Johnny Football" tshirts and made $$$

The problem with this argument is the NFL does not want it (same case as NBA). The players are not mature enough mentally or physically. How many kids do you think coming out of high school honestly believe they are good enough for the NFL. How many will not get drafted and then cannot go to college, because of it.

At this point, a stipend is the best answer to me, but it has to be the same for all schools and it has to be affordable for all schools. Anything else will turn college football into the big 6 (big 5 now).

thats the great part though.. right now so many players look at college as this annoying place to go before they make money at the NFL.. vs appreciate college and take advantage.

so if this 5star hotshot realized he isn't good enough for any NFL team to pick him up.. he will work much harder in college and maybe focus a bit more on that degree just in case.. also if after a year he proves to be ready.. no need to risk injury and enters draft

In a perfect world, those athletes would be smart enough to figure that out. In real life, there's a good chance he ends up working at mcdonalds or hustling on the streets somewhere.

Under this premise, most US children see any schooling as an annoying place before they start their adult life. Should we let them all make the decision to stop going to school as well? There's a reason this system was put in place in the first place. Adults made these decisions way back to help enrich these young men's lives, not to make money. Circumstances have changed that it is making money, but do we really think they are worse off because they are "forced" to get a college education? Yes I understand some of these guys don't even go to class, but that's the corruption of the university itself, not the fault of the system.

 

[Republicane]

A college degree is so staggeringly valuable, yet there isn't a single coach, in any sport, on any level of NCAA competition currently being paid in credit hours. Weird.

Non sequitur.

"I don't want college athletes paid because I'm afraid it would cause the collapse of a system I find infinitely entertaining." I agree

If you're going to charge rhetorical gymnastics please put forth a competing argument that relies on more than sympathy.

LOL. So asking for a slice of a multi-BILLION dollar pie that exists solely because of their labor is now an attempt to play on someone's sympathies? Jesus. It's pretty evident that these guys will never "deserve" payment in your mind. How about this, how many BILLIONS would the schools and the NCAA have to make before you said, "You know what? F it, peel them off a couple hundos for their trouble"? Or is "amateurism" so important, so noble, that they should never be paid, no matter how much money is made on their backs? If there isn't an amount, please stop reading, and don't bother replying because obviously I'm dealing with a sociopath.

The competing argument is that they aren't being "paid" via a degree. A college degree can't be transferred in exchange for ya know, actual money. Go put your diploma on eBay. Let me know what you get for it. Its monetary value is set by the persons conferring it, which is super convenient. "Hey we're raising tuition again, so guess what? You just got a raise! And while we're on the subject, if you're so worried about inequity that would result from players being paid, how do you square that with the vast differences in the value of what they are already "paid" via degree from a school whose tuition is $50k+ and one that is $10k? How has the system survived that?

A few weeks ago I had an opportunity to see the Orion spacecraft up close under construction. You're right none of those exceptionally talented and educated people building it could get much value for a diploma on eBay--except maybe if it was once earned by Wernher von Braun. I think they would tell you the monetary value would be set by their employer, not the persons conferring it.

I think they would also tell you that they'd like to be paid in dollars rather than books. And are they being paid simply because they graduated from MIT or Cal Tech? Or are they being paid because they possess skills that their employer can use to their benefit? If it's the latter, why shouldn't that same relationship exist between schools benefiting from the skills possessed by its athletes?

What is your personal interest in how much athletes are paid, are you on scholarship?

Using that logic, if my house isn't on fire I shouldn't care if someone else's is right?

 

[Republicane]

you want to fix all this ? np allow players that are 18+ be able to register for the draft! that simple!

don't pay the players ANYTHING... BUT allow them to be able to register for the draft as long as they are 18+
players who are good enough to play for the NFL right out of HS (VERY few are) they will the ones that aren't will value the college educate much more!

you think Johnn Football would of cared about the NCAA if this was in place? as soon as the won the heisman he could of declared for the draft and started printing out "Johnny Football" tshirts and made $$$

The problem with this argument is the NFL does not want it (same case as NBA). The players are not mature enough mentally or physically. How many kids do you think coming out of high school honestly believe they are good enough for the NFL. How many will not get drafted and then cannot go to college, because of it.

At this point, a stipend is the best answer to me, but it has to be the same for all schools and it has to be affordable for all schools. Anything else will turn college football into the big 6 (big 5 now).

The NBA and the NFL want a free minor league system? Golly you don't say. Hypothetically, if every university in the US scrapped its football program what would happen? Would the NFL refuse to set up some sort of minor league system and eventually shut down because it had no more players? Or it would set up its own minor leagues to identify, acquire and develop talent to eventually play at the highest level?

 

[Chuckles]

A college degree is so staggeringly valuable, yet there isn't a single coach, in any sport, on any level of NCAA competition currently being paid in credit hours. Weird.

Non sequitur.

"I don't want college athletes paid because I'm afraid it would cause the collapse of a system I find infinitely entertaining." I agree

If you're going to charge rhetorical gymnastics please put forth a competing argument that relies on more than sympathy.

LOL. So asking for a slice of a multi-BILLION dollar pie that exists solely because of their labor is now an attempt to play on someone's sympathies? Jesus. It's pretty evident that these guys will never "deserve" payment in your mind. How about this, how many BILLIONS would the schools and the NCAA have to make before you said, "You know what? F it, peel them off a couple hundos for their trouble"? Or is "amateurism" so important, so noble, that they should never be paid, no matter how much money is made on their backs? If there isn't an amount, please stop reading, and don't bother replying because obviously I'm dealing with a sociopath.

The competing argument is that they aren't being "paid" via a degree. A college degree can't be transferred in exchange for ya know, actual money. Go put your diploma on eBay. Let me know what you get for it. Its monetary value is set by the persons conferring it, which is super convenient. "Hey we're raising tuition again, so guess what? You just got a raise! And while we're on the subject, if you're so worried about inequity that would result from players being paid, how do you square that with the vast differences in the value of what they are already "paid" via degree from a school whose tuition is $50k+ and one that is $10k? How has the system survived that?

A few weeks ago I had an opportunity to see the Orion spacecraft up close under construction. You're right none of those exceptionally talented and educated people building it could get much value for a diploma on eBay--except maybe if it was once earned by Wernher von Braun. I think they would tell you the monetary value would be set by their employer, not the persons conferring it.

I think they would also tell you that they'd like to be paid in dollars rather than books. And are they being paid simply because they graduated from MIT or Cal Tech? Or are they being paid because they possess skills that their employer can use to their benefit? If it's the latter, why shouldn't that same relationship exist between schools benefiting from the skills possessed by its athletes?

What is your personal interest in how much athletes are paid, are you on scholarship?

Using that logic, if my house isn't on fire I shouldn't care if someone else's is right?

:eekeyes: Okay then, for the sake of greater understanding: How much do you think a college football player should be paid?

 

[poncho0091]

you want to fix all this ? np allow players that are 18+ be able to register for the draft! that simple!

don't pay the players ANYTHING... BUT allow them to be able to register for the draft as long as they are 18+
players who are good enough to play for the NFL right out of HS (VERY few are) they will the ones that aren't will value the college educate much more!

you think Johnn Football would of cared about the NCAA if this was in place? as soon as the won the heisman he could of declared for the draft and started printing out "Johnny Football" tshirts and made $$$

The problem with this argument is the NFL does not want it (same case as NBA). The players are not mature enough mentally or physically. How many kids do you think coming out of high school honestly believe they are good enough for the NFL. How many will not get drafted and then cannot go to college, because of it.

At this point, a stipend is the best answer to me, but it has to be the same for all schools and it has to be affordable for all schools. Anything else will turn college football into the big 6 (big 5 now).

The NBA and the NFL want a free minor league system? Golly you don't say. Hypothetically, if every university in the US scrapped its football program what would happen? Would the NFL refuse to set up some sort of minor league system and eventually shut down because it had no more players? Or it would set up its own minor leagues to identify, acquire and develop talent to eventually play at the highest level?

That wasn't my point, but thanks for misunderstanding. You are blaming the schools and the NCAA, but this is an NFL decision. Does it benefit the NCAA? Yes. Did they probably whisper this into the ear's of the NFL? Yes. Did the NCAA create the rule. No.

 

[Republicane]

Okay then, for the sake of greater understanding: How much do you think a college football player should be paid?

Still waiting for you to answer the question I posed previously. How many billions would the NCAA have to make before you would be in favor of schools paying their athletes? Because unless you're simply an amateurism zealot you must have a number that would be acceptable to you.

 

[kmwcane]

Colleges and universities created CFB and its commercial value, not the athletes. The athletes are free to test the values of their services rendered elsewhere. Whatever commercial value an individual athlete can create will be determined by the market.

At the core of this whole argument is that the "man" takes advantage of the poor but talented kid. There is zero consideration for other concerns. Without the support of academic institutions can we visualize a system where the kids run their own league or will the league be organized and supervised by a new version of "the man?"

Interesting, so you believe the athletes had no role in the value of CFB? Why should the athlete be required to test the value of their services elsewhere when they are already providing a valuable service? They do not deserve to be compensated for this service?

The crux of my argument is not that the athlete is being paid to little compensation. My argument is that we just do not know what the true value of a CFB player is because the NCAA and colleges are operating a cartel and enforcing arbitrary limits on a player's value.

I did not say that the athlete had no role in the value of CFB. In fact it is CFB that has created the athlete's value. The test of their value apart from CFB would be to take their talents elsewhere. They are being compensated, it's been said here to the tune of around 40K.

The athletes are not compelled to perform for the "cartel." Yes, the colleges and the NCAA are enforcing "arbitrary" limits on outside income in exchange for the values provided.

Insofar as the NCAA it is a bloated organization that provides little value that could not be obtained differently.

Again, I never stated that they weren't receiving any compensation. I said no one knows if it is the correct amount. How do you know $40,000 is enough?

 

[Republicane]

you want to fix all this ? np allow players that are 18+ be able to register for the draft! that simple!

don't pay the players ANYTHING... BUT allow them to be able to register for the draft as long as they are 18+
players who are good enough to play for the NFL right out of HS (VERY few are) they will the ones that aren't will value the college educate much more!

you think Johnn Football would of cared about the NCAA if this was in place? as soon as the won the heisman he could of declared for the draft and started printing out "Johnny Football" tshirts and made $$$

The problem with this argument is the NFL does not want it (same case as NBA). The players are not mature enough mentally or physically. How many kids do you think coming out of high school honestly believe they are good enough for the NFL. How many will not get drafted and then cannot go to college, because of it.

At this point, a stipend is the best answer to me, but it has to be the same for all schools and it has to be affordable for all schools. Anything else will turn college football into the big 6 (big 5 now).

The NBA and the NFL want a free minor league system? Golly you don't say. Hypothetically, if every university in the US scrapped its football program what would happen? Would the NFL refuse to set up some sort of minor league system and eventually shut down because it had no more players? Or it would set up its own minor leagues to identify, acquire and develop talent to eventually play at the highest level?

That wasn't my point, but thanks for misunderstanding. You are blaming the schools and the NCAA, but this is an NFL decision. Does it benefit the NCAA? Yes. Did they probably whisper this into the ear's of the NFL? Yes. Did the NCAA create the rule. No.

If the NCAA conspired with the NFL, why should they be blameless simply because they weren't the ones who enacted it? Businesses don't pass regulations that choke out the competition, government does, that doesn't mean that part of the blame for them can't be laid at their door.

 

[kmwcane]

I'd be willing to bet half the people who want these player to get paid this level of compensation also want minimum wage to get raised to $15 to be fair. Of course they don't consider the consequences of these changes, but whatever.

Nope, wrong. I think the minimum wage is one of the worst economic policies and totally counterproductive to its intended goals.

In fact, people using your logic are more like supporters of a minimum wage. You support an arbitrary level of compensation for a CFB player regardless of their skill level or value. Who are you to say that what a CFB player receives now as a "benefit" is adequate compensation?

I support free markets determining the value of goods and services (which is the exact opposite of the current NCAA/CFB system).

 

[Chuckles]

Okay then, for the sake of greater understanding: How much do you think a college football player should be paid?

Still waiting for you to answer the question I posed previously. How many billions would the NCAA have to make before you would be in favor of schools paying their athletes? Because unless you're simply an amateurism zealot you must have a number that would be acceptable to you.

Oh we are going to start answering questions?

"How many billions would the NCAA have to make before you would be in favor of schools paying their athletes?"
Answer: ZERO dollars, I think the NCAA adds no value to college football, no more than could be done otherwise. (An understanding reading of my earlier posts would have revealed that.)

So I ask again: How much do you think a college football player should be paid?
(Keep in mind the player would be an employee of the school, not the NCAA.)

What is your personal interest in how much athletes are paid, are you on scholarship?
(This is a simple question, it is not a logical statement.)

 

[Chuckles]

I'd be willing to bet half the people who want these player to get paid this level of compensation also want minimum wage to get raised to $15 to be fair. Of course they don't consider the consequences of these changes, but whatever.

Nope, wrong. I think the minimum wage is one of the worst economic policies and totally counterproductive to its intended goals.

In fact, people using your logic are more like supporters of a minimum wage. You support an arbitrary level of compensation for a CFB player regardless of their skill level or value. Who are you to say that what a CFB player receives now as a "benefit" is adequate compensation?

I support free markets determining the value of goods and services (which is the exact opposite of the current NCAA/CFB system).

Good, then you support the players establishing their own league that pays its own way!

 

[kmwcane]

you want to fix all this ? np allow players that are 18+ be able to register for the draft! that simple!

don't pay the players ANYTHING... BUT allow them to be able to register for the draft as long as they are 18+
players who are good enough to play for the NFL right out of HS (VERY few are) they will the ones that aren't will value the college educate much more!

you think Johnn Football would of cared about the NCAA if this was in place? as soon as the won the heisman he could of declared for the draft and started printing out "Johnny Football" tshirts and made $$$

The problem with this argument is the NFL does not want it (same case as NBA). The players are not mature enough mentally or physically. How many kids do you think coming out of high school honestly believe they are good enough for the NFL. How many will not get drafted and then cannot go to college, because of it.

At this point, a stipend is the best answer to me, but it has to be the same for all schools and it has to be affordable for all schools. Anything else will turn college football into the big 6 (big 5 now).

thats the great part though.. right now so many players look at college as this annoying place to go before they make money at the NFL.. vs appreciate college and take advantage.

so if this 5star hotshot realized he isn't good enough for any NFL team to pick him up.. he will work much harder in college and maybe focus a bit more on that degree just in case.. also if after a year he proves to be ready.. no need to risk injury and enters draft

In a perfect world, those athletes would be smart enough to figure that out. In real life, there's a good chance he ends up working at mcdonalds or hustling on the streets somewhere.

Under this premise, most US children see any schooling as an annoying place before they start their adult life. Should we let them all make the decision to stop going to school as well? There's a reason this system was put in place in the first place. Adults made these decisions way back to help enrich these young men's lives, not to make money. Circumstances have changed that it is making money, but do we really think they are worse off because they are "forced" to get a college education? Yes I understand some of these guys don't even go to class, but that's the corruption of the university itself, not the fault of the system.

Since when is 18-21 or 22 a child? Seems like you are very much in favor of a patriarchal elite that dictates what individuals do based on the fact these elites "know" better than you!

Help enrich these young men's lives??? It has always been (well perhaps not back in the initial days of CFB and/or the NCAA) about the money and how the NCAA and colleges can keep the most they possibly can.

 

[kmwcane]

I'd be willing to bet half the people who want these player to get paid this level of compensation also want minimum wage to get raised to $15 to be fair. Of course they don't consider the consequences of these changes, but whatever.

Nope, wrong. I think the minimum wage is one of the worst economic policies and totally counterproductive to its intended goals.

In fact, people using your logic are more like supporters of a minimum wage. You support an arbitrary level of compensation for a CFB player regardless of their skill level or value. Who are you to say that what a CFB player receives now as a "benefit" is adequate compensation?

I support free markets determining the value of goods and services (which is the exact opposite of the current NCAA/CFB system).

Good, then you support the players establishing their own league that pays its own way!

They are already providing a service now for which they may not be adequately compensated because of the rules of the NCAA. Another league has nothing to do with the value of a CFB player.

 

[Republicane]

Okay then, for the sake of greater understanding: How much do you think a college football player should be paid?

Still waiting for you to answer the question I posed previously. How many billions would the NCAA have to make before you would be in favor of schools paying their athletes? Because unless you're simply an amateurism zealot you must have a number that would be acceptable to you.

Oh we are going to start answering questions?

"How many billions would the NCAA have to make before you would be in favor of schools paying their athletes?"
Answer: ZERO dollars, I think the NCAA adds no value to college football, no more than could be done otherwise. (An understanding reading of my earlier posts would have revealed that.)

So I ask again: How much do you think a college football player should be paid?
(Keep in mind the player would be an employee of the school, not the NCAA.)

What is your personal interest in how much athletes are paid, are you on scholarship?
(This is a simple question, it is not a logical statement.)

How much should college athletes be paid? How much should an NHL player be paid? How much should an MLB player be paid? It's dependent on a myriad of factors. All I want is the player to have the opportunity to be compensated at a level they feel is fair as opposed to being stuck in a system that conspires to keep them penniless.

 

[Chuckles]

I'd be willing to bet half the people who want these player to get paid this level of compensation also want minimum wage to get raised to $15 to be fair. Of course they don't consider the consequences of these changes, but whatever.

Nope, wrong. I think the minimum wage is one of the worst economic policies and totally counterproductive to its intended goals.

In fact, people using your logic are more like supporters of a minimum wage. You support an arbitrary level of compensation for a CFB player regardless of their skill level or value. Who are you to say that what a CFB player receives now as a "benefit" is adequate compensation?

I support free markets determining the value of goods and services (which is the exact opposite of the current NCAA/CFB system).

Good, then you support the players establishing their own league that pays its own way!

They are already providing a service now for which they may not be adequately compensated because of the rules of the NCAA. Another league has nothing to do with the value of a CFB player.

Another league has everything to do with a free market which as you stated is the exact opposite of the NCAA/CFB system.

 

[Chuckles]

Okay then, for the sake of greater understanding: How much do you think a college football player should be paid?

Still waiting for you to answer the question I posed previously. How many billions would the NCAA have to make before you would be in favor of schools paying their athletes? Because unless you're simply an amateurism zealot you must have a number that would be acceptable to you.

Oh we are going to start answering questions?

"How many billions would the NCAA have to make before you would be in favor of schools paying their athletes?"
Answer: ZERO dollars, I think the NCAA adds no value to college football, no more than could be done otherwise. (An understanding reading of my earlier posts would have revealed that.)

So I ask again: How much do you think a college football player should be paid?
(Keep in mind the player would be an employee of the school, not the NCAA.)

What is your personal interest in how much athletes are paid, are you on scholarship?
(This is a simple question, it is not a logical statement.)

How much should college athletes be paid? How much should an NHL player be paid? How much should an MLB player be paid? It's dependent on a myriad of factors. All I want is the player to have the opportunity to be compensated at a level they feel is fair as opposed to being stuck in a system that conspires to keep them penniless.

So you answered ONE of my questions with you don't know. So what's keeping them in the system that conspires to keep them "penniless?" If they want to be paid why don't they do what players in the NHL and MLB do?

 

[poncho0091]

I'd be willing to bet half the people who want these player to get paid this level of compensation also want minimum wage to get raised to $15 to be fair. Of course they don't consider the consequences of these changes, but whatever.

Nope, wrong. I think the minimum wage is one of the worst economic policies and totally counterproductive to its intended goals.

In fact, people using your logic are more like supporters of a minimum wage. You support an arbitrary level of compensation for a CFB player regardless of their skill level or value. Who are you to say that what a CFB player receives now as a "benefit" is adequate compensation?

I support free markets determining the value of goods and services (which is the exact opposite of the current NCAA/CFB system).

I didn't specify you or anyone else. I'm just saying, all they see is company x makes $y, but the individuals only get paycheck $z. The individuals say hey I want a bigger piece of this pie. It doesn't matter that their desires are going to cost millions jobs and raise living expenses for others. Mcdonalds is not a career choice and if it is, you're likely in management and you're not making minimum wage. For the rest of them, they are kids or people who didn't take the effort to improve their own financial situation in life. They chose to stay at mcdonalds instead of taking student loans like the rest of the people who got a degree (you know the same degree that apparently is nothing). Instead they want the free handout so that mcdonalds drive through is a viable career option.