OT (But Not Really): NCAA - Is it all Tumbling Down?

[poncho0091]

I'd also like to say it's an inaccurate statement. An athlete can profit off of his abilities if he chooses to go to CFL or some other form of competition, but these athletes want to get to the big stage (the NFL) and get the big money. In that sense its a case of go somewhere and work for less than your value, or invest in college and hope to get full value later. If the athlete doesn't like it, he can go somewhere else, but nowhere else are they going to get a free education, the exposure, the training facilities, the medical staff, free housing, free food, and any other resources the university provides while perfecting their craft and building their brand.

Think of people who create something while working for a company using that companies resources. Do you think that company is going to let you go sell it on your own or make sure the world sees you advertised with the product you created? **** no. They are going to patent it under their name and you will still fall under the what have you done for me lately ideal later on. In no way will you be entitled to the product you created.

Except the NCAA is not even the company in your analogy. They are merely a third party that has created rules that benefit itself without having to do anything.

As for your other statement, how do you know that the benefits you outlined are sufficient compensation for the services provided by the athletes?

My point is the system in general. Do I believe the system is perfect? **** no. There does need to be change. Do I believe the athletes should get something yea sure. Personally there are 2 big issues imo. The use of their likeness. I have no problem with the athletes saying if I can't use my likeness you cannot either. The second one is the limits on free time, but how are you going to enforce this one further. The athletes either go to "voluntary" workouts, or lose their starting job. You can't prove this is the reason, so how do you enforce it.

As far as athletes getting compensated for their likeness or compensated for their skills, you would create a system of inequality that in itself would eventually destroy college sports. Athletes would stop going to smaller or local schools, because they want that paycheck or that endorsement deal (created by exposure in a major school) that the smaller schools will not be able to provide. Small schools would no longer be able to compete and the rich will just get richer.

 

[Republicane]

If someone who just came out and said, "I don't want college athletes paid because I'm afraid it would cause the collapse of a system I find infinitely entertaining." I could respect that a lot more than someone doing rhetorical gymnastics to justify keeping a clearly unfair system in place and claiming it's rooted in some sort of ideological high ground.

 

[Republicane]

A college degree is so staggeringly valuable, yet there isn't a single coach, in any sport, on any level of NCAA competition currently being paid in credit hours. Weird.

 

[Chuckles]

Chuckles, instead of telling us why they shouldn't be paid please lay out your argument for why they should be kept broke.

Fair enough, some are "kept broke" because they came to the school broke. Others are supported by their families (like me, my daughter graduated in 1999 and I'm still paying off a loan) who, unless they're wealthy enough not to miss the @40K, in turn have been kept "broke." All who work towards a highly marketable degree have an opportunity to pay off their, and or their parent's loans.

Then there's the empirical NFL evidence that shows that there's no amount sufficient to keep some players from going broke and having to sell their Super Bowl rings. For those there is no amount of CFB compensation that would keep them not broke.

 

[Republicane]

Then there's the empirical NFL evidence that shows that there's no amount sufficient to keep some players from going broke and having to sell their Super Bowl rings. For those there is no amount of CFB compensation that would keep them not broke.

Wouldn't in be preferable that the individual athlete's decisions decide their level of fiscal security as opposed to mandated poverty?

 

[Chuckles]

For everyone supporting the universities and NCAA....can you explain how you then justify coaches on multi million dollar contracts. The price of a coach clearly dictates the worth the sport. If an education, housing and medical facilities are sufficient for the athletes then no coach should make more than 100K. Can you imagine if a cap was placed on coaches salaries because there are secondary emloyees of an educational institution, how fast will people start screaming "socialism"

Bottom line, I love ncaa football but pay the athletes or at the very least allow them to have a union.

Welcome aboard. I agree that no coach is worth more than a million dollars in salary. There is no cap because their employers think they bring that much value to their respective programs, some do, some don't. And, because of the bragging rights that winning brings to boosters.

Unions cause more employment problems than they solve, but they do sell a good and simplistic line of BS. I can see SEIU importing laborers in to picket the U, wouldn't that be grand!

 

[Chuckles]

A college degree is so staggeringly valuable, yet there isn't a single coach, in any sport, on any level of NCAA competition currently being paid in credit hours. Weird.

Non sequitur.

"I don't want college athletes paid because I'm afraid it would cause the collapse of a system I find infinitely entertaining." I agree

If you're going to charge rhetorical gymnastics please put forth a competing argument that relies on more than sympathy.

 

[poncho0091]

Chuckles, instead of telling us why they shouldn't be paid please lay out your argument for why they should be kept broke.

I don't think chuckles is saying they should be left broke. The problem is everyone is crying foul, because less than 1% of college athletes are being compensated for less than their worth. In order to compensate these guys, you are going to have to compensate everyone else as well. What's going to end up happening is athletic scholarships will be removed and players will start going to the highest bidder (because that's the only way you can have a free market). These players will have to start paying the full value of their scholarships instead. How many kids do you think will lose their opportunity to go to school, or even make it to the NFL, because they never got a shot, since they could not afford to go to school. You realize most college athletes have little to no value until they've proven their worth. You think coaches will take a shot on some lowly 2 star recruit if they have to pay them? How much "compensation" do you think he will get?

How many of you are willing to watch over 10000 athletes each year in DI football alone lose their college scholarships, and opportunity to prove themselves on the field so that maybe 100 or even 200 guys can get their shot at a Wheaties deal and inflated paycheck while in college?

 

[Chuckles]

Thanks poncho. Actually I would like athletes on scholarship to receive a small stipend. The NCAA and their rules about what constitutes a professional athlete can bite me.

Hey, let's get the next Willie Williams for only a million dollars. Oh ****, he done went and broke his leg in 47 places! Oh ****, while he was rehabilitating he done went and stole a bunch of I-phones from his team mates! But oh, **** we have a serious investment in this guy, we need to keep him around so that maybe he can play next year when he's healed. Sorry Willie Wonka, we've overspent our talent budget for this year, I hear Alabama is still hiring!

Been fun rehashing this old hash again, let's do it again in a couple of months! In the meantime welcome the FNG.

Inc.

 

[poncho0091]

For everyone supporting the universities and NCAA....can you explain how you then justify coaches on multi million dollar contracts. The price of a coach clearly dictates the worth the sport. If an education, housing and medical facilities are sufficient for the athletes then no coach should make more than 100K. Can you imagine if a cap was placed on coaches salaries because there are secondary emloyees of an educational institution, how fast will people start screaming "socialism"

Bottom line, I love ncaa football but pay the athletes or at the very least allow them to have a union.

Coaches are employees, not students. If the players want to be employees, go to the CFL. With payments, college football will eventually just become another football league. Anyone remember NFL Europe, XFL. Name me more than 10 players from the arena league or CFL without looking it up. That's what I thought. The biggest compensation these guys are getting is free exposure.

 

[poncho0091]

Thanks poncho. Actually I would like athletes on scholarship to receive a small stipend. The NCAA and their rules about what constitutes a professional athlete can bite me.

Hey, let's get the next Willie Williams for only a million dollars. Oh ****, he done went and broke his leg in 47 places! Oh ****, while he was rehabilitating he done went and stole a bunch of I-phones from his team mates! But oh, **** we have a serious investment in this guy, we need to keep him around so that maybe he can play next year when he's healed. Sorry Willie Wonka, we've overspent our talent budget for this year, I hear Alabama is still hiring!

Been fun rehashing this old hash again, let's do it again in a couple of months! In the meantime welcome the FNG.

Inc.

Great point chuckles. It will be just like the NFL. How long did Mark Sanchez get to start simply because he was a 1st round pick? How about Matt Leinart? How many unknown players will never see the field because they are sitting behind some 5 star recruit who got paid way too much?

 

[Republicane]

A college degree is so staggeringly valuable, yet there isn't a single coach, in any sport, on any level of NCAA competition currently being paid in credit hours. Weird.

Non sequitur.

"I don't want college athletes paid because I'm afraid it would cause the collapse of a system I find infinitely entertaining." I agree

If you're going to charge rhetorical gymnastics please put forth a competing argument that relies on more than sympathy.

LOL. So asking for a slice of a multi-BILLION dollar pie that exists solely because of their labor is now an attempt to play on someone's sympathies? Jesus. It's pretty evident that these guys will never "deserve" payment in your mind. How about this, how many BILLIONS would the schools and the NCAA have to make before you said, "You know what? F it, peel them off a couple hundos for their trouble"? Or is "amateurism" so important, so noble, that they should never be paid, no matter how much money is made on their backs? If there isn't an amount, please stop reading, and don't bother replying because obviously I'm dealing with a sociopath.

The competing argument is that they aren't being "paid" via a degree. A college degree can't be transferred in exchange for ya know, actual money. Go put your diploma on eBay. Let me know what you get for it. Its monetary value is set by the persons conferring it, which is super convenient. "Hey we're raising tuition again, so guess what? You just got a raise! And while we're on the subject, if you're so worried about inequity that would result from players being paid, how do you square that with the vast differences in the value of what they are already "paid" via degree from a school whose tuition is $50k+ and one that is $10k? How has the system survived that?

 

[Republicane]

Chuckles, instead of telling us why they shouldn't be paid please lay out your argument for why they should be kept broke.

I don't think chuckles is saying they should be left broke. The problem is everyone is crying foul, because less than 1% of college athletes are being compensated for less than their worth. In order to compensate these guys, you are going to have to compensate everyone else as well. What's going to end up happening is athletic scholarships will be removed and players will start going to the highest bidder (because that's the only way you can have a free market). These players will have to start paying the full value of their scholarships instead. How many kids do you think will lose their opportunity to go to school, or even make it to the NFL, because they never got a shot, since they could not afford to go to school. You realize most college athletes have little to no value until they've proven their worth. You think coaches will take a shot on some lowly 2 star recruit if they have to pay them? How much "compensation" do you think he will get?

How many of you are willing to watch over 10000 athletes each year in DI football alone lose their college scholarships, and opportunity to prove themselves on the field so that maybe 100 or even 200 guys can get their shot at a Wheaties deal and inflated paycheck while in college?

According to Chuckles your argument is invalid because it plays on people's sympathies.

 

[eliteproxy]

you want to fix all this ? np allow players that are 18+ be able to register for the draft! that simple!

don't pay the players ANYTHING... BUT allow them to be able to register for the draft as long as they are 18+
players who are good enough to play for the NFL right out of HS (VERY few are) they will the ones that aren't will value the college educate much more!

you think Johnn Football would of cared about the NCAA if this was in place? as soon as the won the heisman he could of declared for the draft and started printing out "Johnny Football" tshirts and made $$$

 

[Chuckles]

Chuckles, instead of telling us why they shouldn't be paid please lay out your argument for why they should be kept broke.

I don't think chuckles is saying they should be left broke. The problem is everyone is crying foul, because less than 1% of college athletes are being compensated for less than their worth. In order to compensate these guys, you are going to have to compensate everyone else as well. What's going to end up happening is athletic scholarships will be removed and players will start going to the highest bidder (because that's the only way you can have a free market). These players will have to start paying the full value of their scholarships instead. How many kids do you think will lose their opportunity to go to school, or even make it to the NFL, because they never got a shot, since they could not afford to go to school. You realize most college athletes have little to no value until they've proven their worth. You think coaches will take a shot on some lowly 2 star recruit if they have to pay them? How much "compensation" do you think he will get?

How many of you are willing to watch over 10000 athletes each year in DI football alone lose their college scholarships, and opportunity to prove themselves on the field so that maybe 100 or even 200 guys can get their shot at a Wheaties deal and inflated paycheck while in college?

According to Chuckles your argument is invalid because it plays on people's sympathies.

His argument does not rely solely on sympathy, he just makes the point that if you're only going to consider that argument it can also work against you.

 

[poncho0091]

Chuckles, instead of telling us why they shouldn't be paid please lay out your argument for why they should be kept broke.

I don't think chuckles is saying they should be left broke. The problem is everyone is crying foul, because less than 1% of college athletes are being compensated for less than their worth. In order to compensate these guys, you are going to have to compensate everyone else as well. What's going to end up happening is athletic scholarships will be removed and players will start going to the highest bidder (because that's the only way you can have a free market). These players will have to start paying the full value of their scholarships instead. How many kids do you think will lose their opportunity to go to school, or even make it to the NFL, because they never got a shot, since they could not afford to go to school. You realize most college athletes have little to no value until they've proven their worth. You think coaches will take a shot on some lowly 2 star recruit if they have to pay them? How much "compensation" do you think he will get?

How many of you are willing to watch over 10000 athletes each year in DI football alone lose their college scholarships, and opportunity to prove themselves on the field so that maybe 100 or even 200 guys can get their shot at a Wheaties deal and inflated paycheck while in college?

According to Chuckles your argument is invalid because it plays on people's sympathies.

According to his argument, you are playing on the sympathies of the few. According to mine, the sympathy of the many outweigh the sympathy of the few.

 

[Republicane]

A recap:

They're being paid in education!
They're being paid in exposure!
We can't afford to pay our workers, we'll go out of business!

 

[Chuckles]

A college degree is so staggeringly valuable, yet there isn't a single coach, in any sport, on any level of NCAA competition currently being paid in credit hours. Weird.

Non sequitur.

"I don't want college athletes paid because I'm afraid it would cause the collapse of a system I find infinitely entertaining." I agree

If you're going to charge rhetorical gymnastics please put forth a competing argument that relies on more than sympathy.

LOL. So asking for a slice of a multi-BILLION dollar pie that exists solely because of their labor is now an attempt to play on someone's sympathies? Jesus. It's pretty evident that these guys will never "deserve" payment in your mind. How about this, how many BILLIONS would the schools and the NCAA have to make before you said, "You know what? F it, peel them off a couple hundos for their trouble"? Or is "amateurism" so important, so noble, that they should never be paid, no matter how much money is made on their backs? If there isn't an amount, please stop reading, and don't bother replying because obviously I'm dealing with a sociopath.

The competing argument is that they aren't being "paid" via a degree. A college degree can't be transferred in exchange for ya know, actual money. Go put your diploma on eBay. Let me know what you get for it. Its monetary value is set by the persons conferring it, which is super convenient. "Hey we're raising tuition again, so guess what? You just got a raise! And while we're on the subject, if you're so worried about inequity that would result from players being paid, how do you square that with the vast differences in the value of what they are already "paid" via degree from a school whose tuition is $50k+ and one that is $10k? How has the system survived that?

A few weeks ago I had an opportunity to see the Orion spacecraft up close under construction. You're right none of those exceptionally talented and educated people building it could get much value for a diploma on eBay--except maybe if it was once earned by Wernher von Braun. I think they would tell you the monetary value would be set by their employer, not the persons conferring it.

The rest of this post is also nonsense. In addition, you don't understand anything about how markets work. Are you as generous with your own money as that of others? What is your personal interest in how much athletes are paid, are you on scholarship?

You seem like a nice guy, I wish you all the best with your fantasy of paying players what you think, or what they think, they're worth and having the contributions of people who invested their efforts for more than a hundred years to create the system pay for it all. Good luck with that.

PS Universities existed before football, it is not a prerequisite to run a university:
"We can't afford to pay our workers, we'll go out of business!" I never said or suggested this, it is also nonsense.

 

[Republicane]

It's weird how schools can figure out a way to pay thousands of faculty and staff with no problem, but exasperatedly throw up their hands and proclaim it's too hard and can't be done when faced with how to pay athletes.

 

[poncho0091]

you want to fix all this ? np allow players that are 18+ be able to register for the draft! that simple!

don't pay the players ANYTHING... BUT allow them to be able to register for the draft as long as they are 18+
players who are good enough to play for the NFL right out of HS (VERY few are) they will the ones that aren't will value the college educate much more!

you think Johnn Football would of cared about the NCAA if this was in place? as soon as the won the heisman he could of declared for the draft and started printing out "Johnny Football" tshirts and made $$$

The problem with this argument is the NFL does not want it (same case as NBA). The players are not mature enough mentally or physically. How many kids do you think coming out of high school honestly believe they are good enough for the NFL. How many will not get drafted and then cannot go to college, because of it.

At this point, a stipend is the best answer to me, but it has to be the same for all schools and it has to be affordable for all schools. Anything else will turn college football into the big 6 (big 5 now).