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NCAA investigation, go ahead, ask me...

RaiseCane said:
DapperSlapper said:
cdmd said:
Dapper,

If information obtained through the bankruptcy depositions led to the NCAA enforcement bullying someone into meeting independently with investigators (i.e "hey we have your sworn testimony might as well talk to us now") would the information obtained from those subsequent meetings be considered part of the evidence that was obtained improperly and be thrown? And if enforcement chooses to include evidence obtained that way in the NOA can UM successfully challenge it when it reaches the COI?

Also, can this get really ugly and lead to UM suing the NCAA?

Thanks Dapper!
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Presumably, all evidence derived directly or indirectly from the use of impermissible method would be barred as fruit of the poisonous tree. I have not dealt with this issue in an NCAA infractions case before, so I can't guarantee that's how the NCAA will look at it, but that's the only logical way to treat such evidence. If enforcement got the same information from an independent source, then they would presumably be able to use the info received from the independent source.
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But what will be the NCAA's burden of proof with respect to the allegations, now that Emmert has admitted they obtained information improperly? If they allege payments made by Shapiro to player X, and such payments were mentioned at all in the bankruptcy, will Miami be able to force the NCAA to prove that it didn't get such information from the bankruptcy proceeding? I'd think it would be very difficult for the NCAA to be able to prove that it did NOT obtain information either directly or indirectly from improper sources. Wouldn't the NCAA have to be able to source all of their allegations to information that it can prove did not come directly or indirectly from the improper sources?
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It wouldn't be that difficult to separate the types of evidence (admissible vs. inadmissible). Enforcement has to provide UM with all the information relative to what's in the NOA (within 30 days after the NOA is sent) - they also probably kept a database that UM had access to during the investigation. The database, or secure website, would have recorded interviews, interview summaries, documentary evidence, etc. Looking at those materials, it wouldn't be hard to see what could be used and what couldn't be.
 
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I would imagine that the NCAA will need to tread carefully here for fear of being sued themselves, particularly given the level of cooperation by the school.

Time served on the bowl bans which may help mitigate schollie reductions because they were unprecedented, severe, and self-administered. If the self-imposed punishment was more severe than the crimes committed, than we should skate.

Free Al Golden!
 
LuCane said:
Would love to see Nevin Shapiro's little inferiority complex-filled face right now. Cot**** lollipop-sucking adult desperate to be liked (especially by teenagers).
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As I've posted on countless sites, the tragedy of the situation from a Canes standpoint is that Shapiro has been jailed the entire time, and unavailable to comment publicly. Can you imagine the outbursts, and the nutty remarks? He would have become a national punch line, long before Te'o. An NCAA implosion merely would have followed Shapiro's lead.

Anyway, as a handicapper I'm frustrated I didn't question the deposition situation from the outset. It struck me as far too convenient. Shapiro's lawyer had already provided several shady quotes so I distrusted her. My law background is merely two fascinating classes in college at USC but I should have relied on instinct.

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This has been a valuable thread. To Dapper, my questions would be, does the NCAA worry heavily about legal vulnerability of their own, and who makes that call? How do they balance it with the belief in their case? Any cases where they were known to back off? If Miami dropped this nugget after seeing the NCAA was using ill-gained material, do you think it was helpful in nature, or more like a warning? I was surprised at the tone of Donna Shalala's statement, more forceful and critical than I would have expected, given the theme that we have been cooperating to extraordinary degree.
 
The NCAA paying another attorney to investigate it is a joke. It further delay's the outcome which further penalizes Miami. Enough is enough. Its time legal pressure is applied on the NCAA to end this and end this now.
 
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a couple of thoughts.

first, iirc, the pee wee herman depo "revealed" that al golden had improperly met with or directed pee wee herman to pickup and drop of teddy bridgewater at the now shuttered dan marino restaurant in south miami. this evidence would now appear to be impermissible and therefore al golden "skates" (to use the despicable word often used here) as to the secondary violations (quoting dapperslapper).

second, regardless of the extent of the NCAA's miscues, it taints the entire investigation and questions the integrity and intentions of the investigation (cf USC/McNair). it puts the NCAA on the defensive and gives the U some leverage with which to bargain.

third, this timing could actually be helpful to those recruits sitting on the fence because it could help persuade them that the significant sanctions are behind us, especially if we hire Coley.
 
DapperSlapper said:
minus13 said:
Seriously, Dapper - do you agree that Ms. Perez might have some explaining to do to the the Florida Bar?
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I haven't read anything that leads me to believe she violated any Rules Regulating the Florida Bar. There is nothing that would prevent her from accepting work from the NCAA (unless it created a conflict with her client, which it doesn't appear to have done) - if they violated their own internal policies in hiring her that's their problem. I get asked by other attorneys to work on cases all the time - it's the same thing.

As for PeeWee's depo, I mentioned that above. PeeWee was a bag man for Nevin and delivered money for him. That information could have proven useful in the bankruptcy.
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I agree that there just isn't enough information about it right now to reach any conclusions as to ethical violations. We'll see how it plays out. Thanks for your insight.
 
The timing of this suggests the NCAA wanted to sweep this under the rug but Miami called them out on it. The NCAA (per Emmert) concedes it has known about this since the Fall when the atty bills finally made their way up the NCAA food chain. But we're led to believe the NCAA now, after several months of having this info, decides to publicize its own short-comings? Doubt it. Especially since up until a few days ago, the NCAA apparently started leaking some of the NOA info to media outlets.

The NCAA has a major problem at its hands, which goes well beyond the Miami investigation.
 
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Not so much a question but an observation on this whole issue. As another legal person on here (studying for the bar) you have to also take under consideration the fruit of the poisonous tree which means that any information obtained in furtherance of or in relation to information that was illegally obtained should also be thrown out. This whole thing could be a mess depending on how much investigation was based off of this information that was used in the investigation stemmed from this illegally obtained information and documents and what not.

I truly think that Miami and the NCAA will try and sit down and negotiate a deal in order for everyone to walk away from this ASAP. The NCAA wants to get out of this before more issues arrise and Miami wants this dark cloud to clear out. I think a plea is worked out sooner than later and for those who want my input on sanctions I think we get the 2 bowl bans (credit timed served also lets NCAA flex some muscle to try and maintain an image of strength) along with some games vacated and 6 scholarships over 2 years of probation the next 2 years.
 
minus13 said:
DapperSlapper said:
minus13 said:
Seriously, Dapper - do you agree that Ms. Perez might have some explaining to do to the the Florida Bar?
Click to expand...

I haven't read anything that leads me to believe she violated any Rules Regulating the Florida Bar. There is nothing that would prevent her from accepting work from the NCAA (unless it created a conflict with her client, which it doesn't appear to have done) - if they violated their own internal policies in hiring her that's their problem. I get asked by other attorneys to work on cases all the time - it's the same thing.

As for PeeWee's depo, I mentioned that above. PeeWee was a bag man for Nevin and delivered money for him. That information could have proven useful in the bankruptcy.
Click to expand...

I agree that there just isn't enough information about it right now to reach any conclusions as to ethical violations. We'll see how it plays out. Thanks for your insight.
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Weren't there specific questions to Allen regarding Al Golden's interactions with recruits? I understand there is significant leeway, but I can't imagine what that could have to do with Shapiro's bankruptcy.
 
Dapper - Assuming the NCAA was keeping a database that UM had access to during the investigation, would Haith's attorneys have had access to that database as well?

It seems more than coincidental that the objections to the use of the deposition testimony did not arise until the coaches were notified of the infractions they were accused of while Miami has known about the inclusion of the deposition in the database of evidence for over a year. Given the timing, it seems probable that Haith's attorneys heard the accusations against him, confirmed that they were using the Allen deposition and then raised a big stink about the way the deposition was obtained by the NCAA. This explains why Haith was "notified" but then never received the actual letter and why his attorneys bemoaned the leak before the letter was actually sent. Makes me wonder what UM's attorneys been doing for the past 13 months.
 
2LiveCanes said:
Dapper - Assuming the NCAA was keeping a database that UM had access to during the investigation, would Haith's attorneys have had access to that database as well?

It seems more than coincidental that the objections to the use of the deposition testimony did not arise until the coaches were notified of the infractions they were accused of while Miami has known about the inclusion of the deposition in the database of evidence for over a year. Given the timing, it seems probable that Haith's attorneys heard the accusations against him, confirmed that they were using the Allen deposition and then raised a big stink about the way the deposition was obtained by the NCAA. This explains why Haith was "notified" but then never received the actual letter and why his attorneys bemoaned the leak before the letter was actually sent. Makes me wonder what UM's attorneys been doing for the past 13 months.
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I think Frank Haith has more to lose the UM. Eventually UM will recover from whatever happens. However if Frank Haith is given a enough show clause he might never coach again.

If Haith's attorneys are going to do the dirty work for us thats a good thing. We just sit back and be cooperative. Either way I would love for the NCAA and UM to settle.
 
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minus13 said:
Since we're talking about professor Massey, I've got a quick Masseyism I will never forget:

"The lawyer that represents himself has an idiot for a client."

I really enjoyed my time with her.
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She did't invent that line.
 
Biloxi said:
minus13 said:
Since we're talking about professor Massey, I've got a quick Masseyism I will never forget:

"The lawyer that represents himself has an idiot for a client."

I really enjoyed my time with her.
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She did't invent that line.
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I understand that - but nobody ever spit it out like that woman could. I'll concede that "Masseyism" might have been inappropriate. But to be fair, that woman was so old, she could have invented the woolly mammoth.
 
BigCaneAl said:
minus13 said:
DapperSlapper said:
minus13 said:
Seriously, Dapper - do you agree that Ms. Perez might have some explaining to do to the the Florida Bar?
Click to expand...

I haven't read anything that leads me to believe she violated any Rules Regulating the Florida Bar. There is nothing that would prevent her from accepting work from the NCAA (unless it created a conflict with her client, which it doesn't appear to have done) - if they violated their own internal policies in hiring her that's their problem. I get asked by other attorneys to work on cases all the time - it's the same thing.

As for PeeWee's depo, I mentioned that above. PeeWee was a bag man for Nevin and delivered money for him. That information could have proven useful in the bankruptcy.
Click to expand...

I agree that there just isn't enough information about it right now to reach any conclusions as to ethical violations. We'll see how it plays out. Thanks for your insight.
Click to expand...

Weren't there specific questions to Allen regarding Al Golden's interactions with recruits? I understand there is significant leeway, but I can't imagine what that could have to do with Shapiro's bankruptcy.
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I believe that if she tricked individuals into speaking with the NCAA by making them believe they were requiring to attend a deposition on an unrelated matter, and if she failed to make the deponent aware of the situation, that she has committed an ethical violation. However, some reports suggest that she only allowed the NCAA to review documents. I'd like to understand what happened a little more clearly before I jump to any further conclusions.
 
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From the Transcript of the videotape deposition of Sean Peewee Allen on December 19, 2011

Q. Did you ever take Mr. Bridgewater to either meet with Coach Golden or Coach Fisch at anytime?
A. I brought Teddy Bridgewater to meet, yes, with Coach Golden. Well, not specifically him I guess. The coaching staff. I don't know what month it was. It was -- there was an official visit is what they call it, going on. He was not a part of that official visit. Somebody from the staff called me and asked me to bring Teddy -- oh, actually I take that back. I'm sorry. Teddy was already down there. They asked me to come get him.
Q. Who's they?
A. A member of the coaching staff. I don't remember who exactly it was.
Q. Okay.
A. So I went to Dan Marino's, the restaurant in South Miami --
Q. Right.
A. -- and sat there. Yeah, I sat with Teddy and -- actually that might have been the first time I met Coach Golden, and they talked and then I
drove Teddy home from there.
Q. Was Mr. Shapiro present at that meeting?
A. No. (ed. note - She does know her client was in jail in January 2011?)
Q. Did you ever observe any financial transactions between Mr. Bridgewater and Mr. Golden or Mr. Fisch in your presence?
A. No.
Q. How did the coaching staff know to contact you? Why would they contact you?
A. At that time -- I want to say at that time Nevin was already in jail, and I was working there.
Q. It was? That's why I asked you for your date. (ed. not - she never asked about the date)
A. I can't remember -- I'm sorry, I really don't remember the exact date. That is something that I could figure out if I, you know, later on I could sit down and figure out, but --
Q. Yeah. I just want to know the financial end of it --
A. No --
Q. -- if Mr. Shapiro was present for any of that.
A. No.


Total BS that Perez wanted to just know the "financial end" of the Golden/Bridgewater meeting as it related to Shapiro. Shapiro was arrested in April 2010 and in jail for months before Golden was hired in December 2010. She absolutely knew the timeline didn't jive with any Shapiro involvement with Golden and was on a fishing expedition at the behest of the NCAA investigator. The financial thing is clearly just an afterthought to cover her *** on the out of bounds questioning.
 
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2LiveCanes said:
Q. Did you ever take Mr. Bridgewater to either meet with Coach Golden or Coach Fisch at anytime?
A. I brought Teddy Bridgewater to meet, yes, with Coach Golden. Well, not specifically him I guess. The coaching staff. I don't know what month it was. It was -- there was an official visit is what they call it, going on. He was not a part of that official visit. Somebody from the staff called me and asked me to bring Teddy -- oh, actually I take that back. I'm sorry. Teddy was already down there. They asked me to come get him.
Q. Who's they?
A. A member of the coaching staff. I don't remember who exactly it was.
Q. Okay.
A. So I went to Dan Marino's, the restaurant in South Miami --
Q. Right.
A. -- and sat there. Yeah, I sat with Teddy and -- actually that might have been the first time I met Coach Golden, and they talked and then I
drove Teddy home from there.
Q. Was Mr. Shapiro present at that meeting?
A. No. (ed. note - She does know her client was in jail in January 2011?)
Q. Did you ever observe any financial transactions between Mr. Bridgewater and Mr. Golden or Mr. Fisch in your presence?
A. No.
Q. How did the coaching staff know to contact you? Why would they contact you?
A. At that time -- I want to say at that time Nevin was already in jail, and I was working there.
Q. It was? That's why I asked you for your date. (ed. not - she never asked about the date)
A. I can't remember -- I'm sorry, I really don't remember the exact date. That is something that I could figure out if I, you know, later on I could sit down and figure out, but --
Q. Yeah. I just want to know the financial end of it --
A. No --
Q. -- if Mr. Shapiro was present for any of that.
A. No.


Total BS that Perez wanted to just know the "financial end" of the Golden/Bridgewater meeting as it related to Shapiro. Shapiro was arrested in April 2010 and in jail for months before Golden was hired in December 2010. She absolutely knew the timeline didn't jive with any Shapiro involvement with Golden and was on a fishing expedition at the behest of the NCAA investigator. The financial thing is clearly just an afterthought to cover her *** on the out of bounds questioning.
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What is this?
 
Consig - read barry jaggoff's blog today about the ncaa stuff and what they did to get it and whats in there. good stuff
 
2LiveCanes said:
From the Transcript of the videotape deposition of Sean Peewee Allen on December 19, 2011

Q. Did you ever take Mr. Bridgewater to either meet with Coach Golden or Coach Fisch at anytime?
A. I brought Teddy Bridgewater to meet, yes, with Coach Golden. Well, not specifically him I guess. The coaching staff. I don't know what month it was. It was -- there was an official visit is what they call it, going on. He was not a part of that official visit. Somebody from the staff called me and asked me to bring Teddy -- oh, actually I take that back. I'm sorry. Teddy was already down there. They asked me to come get him.
Q. Who's they?
A. A member of the coaching staff. I don't remember who exactly it was.
Q. Okay.
A. So I went to Dan Marino's, the restaurant in South Miami --
Q. Right.
A. -- and sat there. Yeah, I sat with Teddy and -- actually that might have been the first time I met Coach Golden, and they talked and then I
drove Teddy home from there.
Q. Was Mr. Shapiro present at that meeting?
A. No. (ed. note - She does know her client was in jail in January 2011?)
Q. Did you ever observe any financial transactions between Mr. Bridgewater and Mr. Golden or Mr. Fisch in your presence?
A. No.
Q. How did the coaching staff know to contact you? Why would they contact you?
A. At that time -- I want to say at that time Nevin was already in jail, and I was working there.
Q. It was? That's why I asked you for your date. (ed. not - she never asked about the date)
A. I can't remember -- I'm sorry, I really don't remember the exact date. That is something that I could figure out if I, you know, later on I could sit down and figure out, but --
Q. Yeah. I just want to know the financial end of it --
A. No --
Q. -- if Mr. Shapiro was present for any of that.
A. No.


Total BS that Perez wanted to just know the "financial end" of the Golden/Bridgewater meeting as it related to Shapiro. Shapiro was arrested in April 2010 and in jail for months before Golden was hired in December 2010. She absolutely knew the timeline didn't jive with any Shapiro involvement with Golden and was on a fishing expedition at the behest of the NCAA investigator. The financial thing is clearly just an afterthought to cover her *** on the out of bounds questioning.
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do you have a copy of the depo?
 
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