Let’s talk about recruiting from a staff perspective (not about recruits)

[Ethnicsands]

Manny was the guy in the room banging the table for local kids. We are going to have an All-Florida starting defense next year.

No disrespect, D, but that sounds like fiction to me. Manny didn’t manage D recruiting at all his first couple seasons. He ignored Kul, and ignored LB. And had two DB assistants who together missed most of our top local targets.

Manny gets no credit for anything in recruiting as far as I can tell. He needs to show that he can put a major priority on it as HC, because he absolutely did not as DC.

 

[DragonCane]

You are lost. Go find a non recruiting thread to use to talk about coaching and development. No one here is claiming we have been well coached or developed well just different topics. We have been mismanaged in lots of areas. Recruiting is one of them. If you don’t grasp that, you’re just not trying. And it is not one bad year of recruiting. Again, you’re entirely wrong but the points hve been made already so this exchange is a waste of time.

Nah. My argument is based on fact (16, 17 top 20 classes and 18 top 8 class). Numbers don't lie. The problem is development.

And I agree this exchange is a waste of time. Your not changing your narrative and neither am I.

We are botb Cane fans though so it's okay if we don't see eye to eye. We both want what's best for the program so kets hope Manny can get us there.

Go Canes!!!

 

[DMoney]

No disrespect, D, but that sounds like fiction to me.

This is what the recruiting department has been telling me since Manny took over. He wants South Florida kids.

Our projected starting defense has seven South Florida kids and four other players from Florida. It does not have a single out-of-state player.

 

[The Franchise]

No disrespect, D, but that sounds like fiction to me. Manny didn’t manage D recruiting at all his first couple seasons. He ignored Kul, and ignored LB. And had two DB assistants who together missed most of our top local targets.

Manny gets no credit for anything in recruiting as far as I can tell. He needs to show that he can put a major priority on it as HC, because he absolutely did not as DC.

If he was in charge of defensive recruiting then that should scare the fck out of every UM fan because the failure wasn’t only in closing/recruiting it was in management of the entire operation.

 

[Ethnicsands]

Nah. My argument is based on fact (16, 17 top 20 classes and 18 top 8 class). Numbers don't lie. The problem is development.

And I agree this exchange is a waste of time. Your not changing your narrative and neither am I.

We are botb Cane fans though so it's okay if we don't see eye to eye. We both want what's best for the program so kets hope Manny can get us there.

Go Canes!!!

You are wrong. Numbers don’t lie is a dense person’s slogan. Numbers are just that. They don’t tell you much if you don’t know what questions to ask. The entire topic is walked through in the OP.

We have severely underrecruited DT and OL for ages. Those deficiencies linger as those positions take time to mature and develop. We underrecruited LB for 2 years after the Golden trio came in in Richt's first season. Which sets us up for real challenges next year. We consistently miss on our top DB targets. Our staff consistently puts too many eggs in one basket, has bad back up plans, manages continencies poorly, and seems to consistently be the last people in the room to realize their date left the party with someone else. On top of all that, we have failed in the most basic way imaginable - we haven’t even bothered to have a full roster in years. Just pathetic. There are so many ways that our recruiting evidences poor planning and poor execution and lack of management. That we still wind up with decent rankings is a function of our local talent base, not our staff doing its job well.

 

[Ethnicsands]

This is what the recruiting department has been telling me since Manny took over. He wants South Florida kids.

Our projected starting defense has seven South Florida kids and four other players from Florida. It does not have a single out-of-state player.

On this years team, Willis, Jackson and Patchan were Golden guys, our 3 LBs were Golden guys, and Johnson, Jackson and Redwine were Golden guys. And Garvin was a Kul kid that Diaz cannot really claim credit for. One possible reason for a So Fla bias in next years defense could also be a lack of effort by Diaz the past couple years, since we know he didn’t exactly recruit defense well or energetically in that time period. I am all for in area recruiting, as you know, but not at the expense of under recruiting. Diaz could have done more OOS as well as locally.

Anyhow, I am not surprised that what we hear from our program is some version of ‘the king is dead, long live the king!’ That is what we have heard every time there is a new coach for ages. All the sudden the former guy goes from great to awful ovenright and the new guy is speaking the language we want to hear. I’ll believe it when I see it with Diaz.

 

[DragonCane]

You are wrong. Numbers don’t lie is a dense person’s slogan. Numbers are just that. They don’t tell you much if you don’t know what questions to ask. The entire topic is walked through in the OP.

We have severely underrecruited DT and OL for ages. Those deficiencies linger as those positions take time to mature and develop. We underrecruited LB for 2 years after the Golden trio came in in Richt's first season. Which sets us up for real challenges next year. We consistently miss on our top DB targets. Our staff consistently puts too many eggs in one basket, has bad back up plans, manages continencies poorly, and seems to consistently be the last people in the room to realize their date left the party with someone else. On top of all that, we have failed in the most basic way imaginable - we haven’t even bothered to have a full roster in years. Just pathetic. There are so many ways that our recruiting evidences poor planning and poor execution and lack of management. That we still wind up with decent rankings is a function of our local talent base, not our staff doing its job well.

Okay. TBH your points are well thought out and hard to argue with. I have an open mind and what your pointing out is swaying me from my original argument.

I still think that development of players has not been great but what your pointing out in recruiting deficiences is disturbing to say the least.

I hope Manny can change this around but since he is keeping all his coaches on the defensive side of the ball, i'm more concerned than I was 1 hour ago.

 

[Ethnicsands]

Okay. TBH your points are well thought out and hard to argue with. I have an open mind and what your pointing out is swaying me from my original argument.

I still think that development of players has not been great but what your pointing out in recruiting deficiences is disturbing to say the least.

I hope Manny can change this around but since he is keeping all his coaches on the defensive side of the ball, i'm more concerned than I was 1 hour ago.

You are correct that development has been poor. Coaching, schemes, game planning, play calling and S&C have also been poor. We have been half heartedly faking having a major fb program. It shows. Lots of areas have been poor together.

Also, one area that has characterized our recruiting since Coker has been to overrecruit a position group out of desperation one year, then ignore it for 2 years. Hence my point that recruiting requires planning. It’s definitely not all about stars. That is definitely not my point. You have to know your roster, know your needs, know what you are looking for, know how to evaluate and prioritize and sell and read the tea leaves and close. I could be content with a well managed recruiting effort that ranked 10-15 if it addressed our needs and had good local kids in it. Conversely, high ranked classes that are full of kids who wont get in, wont stay in, or are not well evalauted, those classes suck. Coker’s ‘04 class killed the program. Randy’s ‘08 class had a ton of wasted scholarships in it. Ditto Godlen’s big class.

There has to be a way to fill your roster that navigates between the extremes of our past coaches grabbing whoever would come, on the one hand, and Richt not even bothering, on the other.

 

[DMoney]

On this years team, Willis, Jackson and Patchan were Golden guys, our 3 LBs were Golden guys, and Johnson, Jackson and Redwine were Golden guys. And Garvin was a Kul kid that Diaz cannot really claim credit for. One possible reason for a So Fla bias in next years defense could also be a lack of effort by Diaz the past couple years, since we know he didn’t exactly recruit defense well or energetically in that time period. I am all for in area recruiting, as you know, but not at the expense of under recruiting. Diaz could have done more OOS as well as locally.

Anyhow, I am not surprised that what we hear from our program is some version of ‘the king is dead, long live the king!’ That is what we have heard every time there is a new coach for ages. All the sudden the former guy goes from great to awful ovenright and the new guy is speaking the language we want to hear. I’ll believe it when I see it with Diaz.

My initial post said that Diaz wanted South Florida guys. You disagreed for some reason.

I actually agree that Diaz has not shown to be an exceptional recruiter. I don’t love what he’s done at linebacker.

One of the reasons I didn’t want Mario is that recruiting ability is overrated. We need a smart guy who gets us playing winning, exciting football. Diaz already did it on defense. It’s not just talk. Now we will see if he can extend that to the rest of the program.

 

[Ethnicsands]

My initial post said that Diaz wanted South Florida guys. You disagreed for some reason.

I actually agree that Diaz has not shown to be an exceptional recruiter. I don’t love what he’s done at linebacker.

One of the reasons I didn’t want Mario is that recruiting ability is overrated. We need a smart guy who gets us playing winning, exciting football. Diaz already did it on defense. It’s not just talk. Now we will see if he can extend that to the rest of the program.

These are separate points, and I started this thread on the football board in order to point out the aspects of recruiting that flow from Hc management, not assistant coaches selling.

I disagree that recruiting is overrated. It’s a foundational leg of the stool. You also need to coach well, and have a good culture and S&C. But a full, balanced roster with talent and depth is a must to be highly competitive in cfb. And we have not had a deep, balanced roster since Butch’s guys left town. If you think recruiting isn’t a big deal, I’ll find the time to buy you dinner or drinks and discuss why that’s wrong. We will never win without a serious approach to recruiting. Not in this new, modern era.

I am not arguing for Mario. And I didn’t start the thread to be negative on Manny, to the contrary, I actually tried to point out why he could be a good HC from a recruiting perspective even if he wasn’t great at selling as an assistant. My point was to try to discuss what it means to manage recruiting well — because he can ... and he needs to. So many people talk about recruiting from the trooper taylor perspective. People do not seem to grasp what Saban does with staff resources, e.g. just because we dont have his resources doesn’t mean we can or should ignore the discipline, plan, evals, process, etc.

Manny is smart and analytical. Note my Moneyball reference in the OP. He can figure out recruiting. ... but will he?

 

[DMoney]

These are separate points, and I started this thread on the football board in order to point out the aspects of recruiting that flow from Hc management, not assistant coaches selling.

I disagree that recruiting is overrated. It’s a foundational leg of the stool. You also need to coach well, and have a good culture and S&C. But a full, balanced roster with talent and depth is a must to be highly competitive in cfb. And we have not had a deep, balanced roster since Butch’s guys left town. If you think recruiting isn’t a big deal, I’ll find the time to buy you dinner or drinks and discuss why that’s wrong. We will never win without a serious approach to recruiting. Not in this new, modern era.

I am not arguing for Mario. And I didn’t start the thread to be negative on Manny, to the contrary, I actually tried to point out why he could be a good HC from a recruiting perspective even if he wasn’t great at selling as an assistant. My point was to try to discuss what it means to manage recruiting well — because he can ... and he needs to. So many people talk about recruiting from the trooper taylor perspective. People do not seem to grasp what Saban does with staff resources, e.g. just because we dont have his resources doesn’t mean we can or should ignore the discipline, plan, evals, process, etc.

Manny is smart and analytical. Note my Moneyball reference in the OP. He can figure out recruiting. ... but will he?

When I say recruiting is overrated, I mean recruiting ability, i.e. “a head coach who can close.”

You absolutely need an organized plan and you need evaluation.

 

[Ethnicsands]

When I say recruiting is overrated, I mean recruiting ability, i.e. “a head coach who can close.”

You absolutely need an organized plan and you need evaluation.

That was my whole point in the OP.

Recruiting is about a lot more than selling.

 

[DMoney]

That was my whole point in the OP.

I never disagreed with the OP. You responded to something else.

With respect to managing Kool, the problem was that Kool had a lot of autonomy from Richt. He was a really good, highly paid coach who was also an elite evaluator. Manny got ****ed that Kool was a lazy recruiter, and that tension is one of the reasons Kool left.

My big beef with Manny has been at LB. We should be better there in the second and third team. The DBs are talented and we’ve been targeting the right guys.

 

[canesnc5]

I think this was a great post and a good thread. I do not think we have had a good plan for recruiting for a while. Saw something the other day that explained a lot. Can't remember where I saw it or the exact numbers but it was scholarships offered by each D1 school. Do not remember exact numbers but the difference in Miami and the leader was a very wide margin. Something like 150 offers for Miami and over 400 for the top 3-5. We need to offer more kids and stay in contact with them. It was almost like Richt didn't recruit during the season. Tons of momentum over the summer and with Paradise Camp, then nothing during the season.

 

[423Hurricane]

We had one really good season defensively and that was with a senior laden squad at the most important spots.

As HC, he needs to multitask and anticipate issues BEFORE they kill him and not try to act late after the horror. I fully expect a dip on D next season, and the recruiting there is super mediocre right now.

Offense is a bigger problem, but he needs to anticipate the problems that fans already recognize coming on D.

Reactive vs proactive. In any organization, being reactive is a laiza faire, lazy approach that waits until **** hits the fan before reacting. Being proactive is aggressive and anticipating for, and then planning for, the **** hitting the fan.

Manny has stated he wants an aggressive, attacking style on offense similar in style to his defense. Hopefully, he applies the same principles to all facets of this team.

 

[CalCane]

I wouldnt blame Richt for manny’s recruiting the past few years. Manny is analytical and smart, but the son of the mayor. He’s not a guy from the hood. And he’s not really warm. More personable but driven. He may not have the patience or emotion or connectivity to be a great recruiter. But he can manage recruiting, if he sets his mind to it. And yes, he needs good salespeople amd he needs good evaluators.

And Sabag is from the hood? Please

 

[Ethnicsands]

And Sabag is from the hood? Please

Not the point. Saban is incredibly disciplined and has a terrific process and tremendous resources, and he doesn’t primarily recruit Miami either. That team is full of country boys.

 

[Ethnicsands]

I never disagreed with the OP. You responded to something else.

With respect to managing Kool, the problem was that Kool had a lot of autonomy from Richt. He was a really good, highly paid coach who was also an elite evaluator. Manny got ****ed that Kool was a lazy recruiter, and that tension is one of the reasons Kool left.

My big beef with Manny has been at LB. We should be better there in the second and third team. The DBs are talented and we’ve been targeting the right guys.

I have no doubt Manny and Kul has a tense existence. Still, Manny was DC and didn’t assert himself in D recruiting. That’s on him.

Agree with you on Lbs. His unit, his mistakes.

At DB, only half agree. We targeted too many kids we couldn’t sign, and lost several kids we should have signed because we were chasing other kids. That is part of my criticism on defense. It’s why I said in the OP that we need a clear sense of who is a take and need to be willing to take kids we think can play at Miami and not ignore them because there’s a hotter chick out there who we end up striking out on. I’m not chasing ratings. i just want us to get enough of the best local kids.

 

[ForeveCane55]

Is there one coach on this team that would convince anyone i mean diaz has been a horrible recruiter from day 1 we know this every place he was at he was terrible at recruiting were not getting a dabo or a lincoln here its manny effin diaz

 

[TallyCane]

I know some on here have said that Manny has to see a player in person before offering him, that's going to have to change. Also was he in charge of the defensive board or was it richt? Will we go to Satellite camps? don't need to go to every camp but I know there is a adidas sponsored one in macon and we were the only adidas school not there, that's malpractice by richt