Golden talks recruiting

[jerzeycane]

Sammy is more Percy Harvin/Stefon Diggs than he is Amari Cooper/Terrance Williams

What? Percy Harvin is an insane talent, elite talent.

So is Stefon Diggs...you're missing my point

What is your point?

There's a difference between playmaker and receiver. I'm not really a big fan of the Desean Jackson/Percy Harvin types who are highlight fiends. Those guys normally struggle against good defenses.

 

[Consigliere]

Sammy is more Percy Harvin/Stefon Diggs than he is Amari Cooper/Terrance Williams

What? Percy Harvin is an insane talent, elite talent.

So is Stefon Diggs...you're missing my point

What is your point?

There's a difference between playmaker and receiver. I'm not really a big fan of the Desean Jackson/Percy Harvin types who are highlight fiends. Those guys normally struggle against good defenses.

That is your point?

All those players you mention are high talent and elite players...still don't get your point (too flashy?)

 

[LuCane]

Sammy is more Percy Harvin/Stefon Diggs than he is Amari Cooper/Terrance Williams

What? Percy Harvin is an insane talent, elite talent.

So is Stefon Diggs...you're missing my point

What is your point?

There's a difference between playmaker and receiver. I'm not really a big fan of the Desean Jackson/Percy Harvin types who are highlight fiends. Those guys normally struggle against good defenses.

Look forward to the examples that show Sammy Watkins is a poor route runner. At the same time, please show examples that Amari Cooper is a polished route runner.

This is really wild stuff, Jerzey.

 

[jerzeycane]

What? Percy Harvin is an insane talent, elite talent.

So is Stefon Diggs...you're missing my point

What is your point?

There's a difference between playmaker and receiver. I'm not really a big fan of the Desean Jackson/Percy Harvin types who are highlight fiends. Those guys normally struggle against good defenses.

That is your point?

All those players you mention are high talent and elite players...still don't get your point (too flashy?)

No, I don't mind flash. Victor Cruz is just as flashy as any receiver in the league. I mind lack of refined route running and small receivers. Sometimes you need a guy who will go over the middle, catch a 14 yard pass with his hands, take a pop, and keep ticking.

I've been telling people for years that Hakeem Nicks was better than DeSean Jackson and people kept telling me I was crazy, pointing to long touchdown catches with no one in the area code.

You're not going to run by guys all the time and you can't shake people all the time. I'll take Reggie Wayne all day over some these guys who just run around with the football in their hand.

 

[weownfsu]

Jackson and Harvin were dominant in college. And jacksom is about as "pure" a receiver you are going to find.

 

[jerzeycane]

What? Percy Harvin is an insane talent, elite talent.

So is Stefon Diggs...you're missing my point

What is your point?

There's a difference between playmaker and receiver. I'm not really a big fan of the Desean Jackson/Percy Harvin types who are highlight fiends. Those guys normally struggle against good defenses.

Look forward to the examples that show Sammy Watkins is a poor route runner. At the same time, please show examples that Amari Cooper is a polished route runner.

This is really wild stuff, Jerzey.

I shouldn't have used Cooper. He doesn't have enough on film yet, but from what I see with Watkins, they've got the gimmick offense going at Clemson and they just find creative ways to get him the ball in space as opposed to constructing a polished receiver. Maybe he just doesn't have the opportunity to show it, but I haven't seen anything from him that suggests he's a wide receiver as opposed to being a playmaker.

 

[The Franchise]

Agree with Flip and JHall on PD. If he's a #1, he hasn't shown it yet.

I don't see enough YAC production from PD to truly consider him a #1, in addition to the reasons already mentioned.

A few things on Dorsett (to the board)

1. Before the season he was considered a so-so player.

2. The kid was a true sophomore this year.

3. He had some mental mishaps this year but still managed to get almost 850 receiving yards.

4. He burnt DBs all season.

5. This kid is a tremendous worker and will get these mental mishaps fixed.

I like our chances this year with this kid, he can fix the mental lapses and he will still burn DBs. Personally I don't care if Miami fans consider him a #1 or #6, we need his production and he is a big part of the offense.

Agree with your sentiments except for #1. I didn't consider him a so-so player coming off his freshmans season. Looked to me like he had the potential to be great, and I still feel that way. He choked on the big stage against ND as a true sophomore, but Santana choked against FSU as a young player prior to becoming a big-time clutch guy for us as he gained experience.

I know you didn't. This board and other boards did. I remember the morons stating that this kid was so-so because he wasn't "Santana." Santana was a beast, he was a first round pick and an utter stud. Very few people are Santana but that didn't stop the boards from putting down (at the time) the true freshman.

Santana played on a lot of bad teams and still has about 10,000 Rec Yards, very few will be Santana.

PD did choke on the big stage and could have helped us change that game against ND, but that was mental. I think this kid PD will continue to be great for us and I don't care if our fans think he is a true #1.

Great stuff, Consigs. It's astute level-headed guys like you that make this the best UM message board on the internets.

 

[NorthFlaCane]

It will certainly help Dorsett to have Beau underneath keeping those safeties honest.

 

[jerzeycane]

Jackson and Harvin were dominant in college. And jacksom is about as "pure" a receiver you are going to find.

Nope.

Routinely is undisciplined when it comes to running his depths

Seen him lack field awareness on more than one occasion

Rounds off his breaks as opposed to making sharp cuts

Routinely gets a case of T-Rex arms over the middle of the field

 

[Consigliere]

So is Stefon Diggs...you're missing my point

What is your point?

There's a difference between playmaker and receiver. I'm not really a big fan of the Desean Jackson/Percy Harvin types who are highlight fiends. Those guys normally struggle against good defenses.

That is your point?

All those players you mention are high talent and elite players...still don't get your point (too flashy?)

No, I don't mind flash. Victor Cruz is just as flashy as any receiver in the league. I mind lack of refined route running and small receivers. Sometimes you need a guy who will go over the middle, catch a 14 yard pass with his hands, take a pop, and keep ticking.

I've been telling people for years that Hakeem Nicks was better than DeSean Jackson and people kept telling me I was crazy, pointing to long touchdown catches with no one in the area code.

You're not going to run by guys all the time and you can't shake people all the time. I'll take Reggie Wayne all day over some these guys who just run around with the football in their hand.

To make a point, you are changing the argument. There is no point to be made, this isn't about preferences it is about skills.

 

[jerzeycane]

What is your point?

There's a difference between playmaker and receiver. I'm not really a big fan of the Desean Jackson/Percy Harvin types who are highlight fiends. Those guys normally struggle against good defenses.

That is your point?

All those players you mention are high talent and elite players...still don't get your point (too flashy?)

No, I don't mind flash. Victor Cruz is just as flashy as any receiver in the league. I mind lack of refined route running and small receivers. Sometimes you need a guy who will go over the middle, catch a 14 yard pass with his hands, take a pop, and keep ticking.

I've been telling people for years that Hakeem Nicks was better than DeSean Jackson and people kept telling me I was crazy, pointing to long touchdown catches with no one in the area code.

You're not going to run by guys all the time and you can't shake people all the time. I'll take Reggie Wayne all day over some these guys who just run around with the football in their hand.

To make a point, you are changing the argument. There is no point to be made, this isn't about preferences it is about skills.

No it's about what's effective against stiffer competition. Receivers that live off the big play don't necessarily have success against goo defenses.

 

[weownfsu]

Jackson and Harvin were dominant in college. And jacksom is about as "pure" a receiver you are going to find.

Nope.

Routinely is undisciplined when it comes to running his depths

Seen him lack field awareness on more than one occasion

Rounds off his breaks as opposed to making sharp cuts

Routinely gets a case of T-Rex arms over the middle of the field

Yep. You have no clue what you are talking about. DeSean Jackson was a beast in college football since day 1 and the NFL since day 1. You're confusing yourself because he's a smaller guy who happens to be insanely explosive. So you're saying Jackson isn't a perfect receiver? Uh, okay. Not many are. But he is absolutely a natural receiver. He has excellent hands. He gets open extremely easily. And he runs very good routes. It's why he has been a great player wherever he goes from day 1. You're just wrong all over the board when it comes to this discussion. He's not a complete receiver who can do everything that truly great receivers can, but his receiving ability does not only stem from him running fly patterns down the field or out-athleteting the competition. You're 100% wrong about that. The reason that he's open so much is because in addition to being a great athlete, he knows how to get open and catch the ball - something a "natural receiver" does, just like he has done from day 1 in CFB and the NFL.

 

[Canesfan1899]

Jackson and Harvin were dominant in college. And jacksom is about as "pure" a receiver you are going to find.

Nope.

Routinely is undisciplined when it comes to running his depths

Seen him lack field awareness on more than one occasion

Rounds off his breaks as opposed to making sharp cuts

Routinely gets a case of T-Rex arms over the middle of the field

Yep. You have no clue what you are talking about. DeSean Jackson was a beast in college football since day 1 and the NFL since day 1. You're confusing yourself because he's a smaller guy who happens to be insanely explosive. So you're saying Jackson isn't a perfect receiver? Uh, okay. Not many are. But he is absolutely a natural receiver. He has excellent hands. He gets open extremely easily. And he runs very good routes. It's why he has been a great player wherever he goes from day 1. You're just wrong all over the board when it comes to this discussion. He's not a complete receiver who can do everything that truly great receivers can, but his receiving ability does not only stem from him running fly patterns down the field or out-athleteting the competition. You're 100% wrong about that. The reason that he's open so much is because in addition to being a great athlete, he knows how to get open and catch the ball - something a "natural receiver" does, just like he has done from day 1 in CFB and the NFL.

D. Jackson was an animal at Cal, and everywhere else he has played.

 

[dg151]

Watkins was a better and more intelligent route runner as a freshman than Jackson is now.

That said if you wouldn't take any of these guys on your team you are absolutely insane.

 

[jerzeycane]

Jackson and Harvin were dominant in college. And jacksom is about as "pure" a receiver you are going to find.

Nope.

Routinely is undisciplined when it comes to running his depths

Seen him lack field awareness on more than one occasion

Rounds off his breaks as opposed to making sharp cuts

Routinely gets a case of T-Rex arms over the middle of the field

Yep. You have no clue what you are talking about. DeSean Jackson was a beast in college football since day 1 and the NFL since day 1. You're confusing yourself because he's a smaller guy who happens to be insanely explosive. So you're saying Jackson isn't a perfect receiver? Uh, okay. Not many are. But he is absolutely a natural receiver. He has excellent hands. He gets open extremely easily. And he runs very good routes. It's why he has been a great player wherever he goes from day 1. You're just wrong all over the board when it comes to this discussion. He's not a complete receiver who can do everything that truly great receivers can, but his receiving ability does not only stem from him running fly patterns down the field or out-athleteting the competition. You're 100% wrong about that. The reason that he's open so much is because in addition to being a great athlete, he knows how to get open and catch the ball - something a "natural receiver" does, just like he has done from day 1 in CFB and the NFL.

No disrespect, but you just used all of those characters and didn't disprove anything that I said.

You basically just used all of that space to say..."you're wrong"

 

[jerzeycane]

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/6847210/desean-jackson-eagles

Jackson has caught 172 of the 332 passes thrown to him during the first three years of his career, producing a catch rate of 51.8 percent. Among the 55 receivers with 200 targets or more over that time frame, Jackson ranks 47th in catch rate. He's yet to catch more than 53 percent of the passes thrown to him in any of his three pro seasons.

All these incompletions kill Jackson's efficiency. Even while averaging 22 yards per catch in 2010, Jackson's DVOA (Defense-adjusted Value Over Average) was a middling 2.3 percent, which ranked 44th amongst receivers. He scored only six touchdowns as a receiver (adding one as a rusher and one on that punt return against the Giants to make eight overall), and that occasional quick strike is countered by all the times he wasn't able to come up with a pass and the Eagles were forced to punt. DVOA has a propensity to underrate deep threats like Jackson, but other players with similar profiles have been able to sustain high DVOA figures with this style. Steve Smith of the Panthers, for one, led the league in DVOA during his third full season as a starter. Jackson was 23rd in DVOA in 2009, but he has yet to put together a truly great season.

That article doesn't even cover HALF of what concerns me about DeSean Jackson. He's like Houdini in the red zone, nowhere to be found and is commensurate in the Eagles red zone struggles.
As I said before, he routinely turns down catches in the middle of the field because of alligator arms. He's the 5'11 version of Randy Moss, which isn't even a good comparison, because Randy is widely known to be an extremely knowledgeable film room guy and Brady has said as much. Not only that, but Moss, unlike Jackson, can get deep behind the secondary, but also make catches deep down field when covered.

I really don't even understand why people are having this argument. I can come up with like 20 receivers who are definitively better than him, and another 10 who are debatable.

 

[The Franchise]

Jackson was a phenomenal college player. I don't see him as an elite NFL WR at all. His best plays in the NFL have been as a return man. As a WR, he's good but nowhere near elite.

 

[canesfan049]

Jackson wasn't the #1 receiver at Cal. Lavelle Hawkins was the number #1 and Jackson played utility, moving to slot, motion, wildcat, and backfield. Hawkins was the more consistent and clutch player on that team.