Fundamental issues

[Canesfan1899]

I disagreed with your other thread about the fans being too hard on the kids, Dmoney. But this one was SPOT ON. Great point of view. Never thought about it from this perspective.

I agree with you as well.

 

[Johnson2jr]

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet but Louisville looked physically stronger and faster than Miami. It almost looked like a FBS vs FCS team. Looks like there needs to be a change in Strength and Conditioning! Also, how in the **** you take Rosier over Harris in this years recruiting class? That is still bothering me. Golden=JAG?

 

[LuCane]

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet but Louisville looked physically stronger and faster than Miami. It almost looked like a FBS vs FCS team. Looks like there needs to be a change in Strength and Conditioning! Also, how in the **** you take Rosier over Harris in this years recruiting class? That is still bothering me. Golden=JAG?

They didn't look physically stronger or faster to me. They looked like they were playing against guys who were hesitant and generally one step behind. 2-3 years from now, I think a look back at a prospect analysis will show that.

Like I said in my earlier post, I agree with what a lot of what D$ is mentioning, but I don't think it has to do necessarily with being a "Northeast guy." Maybe being a Northeast guy led him to work with a certain coaching tree and therefore develop a particular style and mindset. But, I believe the root cause is what he values, which falls in line with the guys mentioned.

 

[CaneAlmighty]

See this is why bias is such a motha****a. It's mind blowing to watch the machinations and contortions of those wanting Golden to be something that he clearly is not. This is of course easier to do when the person you are trying to turn into what he is NOT looks, and sounds a certain way.

Let's be clear here, Golden is far ahead of Shannon on many levels BUT again as I pointed out previously that should be par for the course for any competent Coach that one would even consider as a candidate for the HC position.

It's far easier to look for competence when it comes in a certain package, such as Coker or Shannon.

IMHO looking at this honestly, I too fell into the "Sounds competent and seems competent" bias basically because the guy was talking a good game. At some point you have to trust your lying eyes. This guy doesn't get it.

I know this will never ever ever happen but hiring a guy who's licking his wounds after a fall from grace such as Bobby Petrino would send a strong message that Miami is serious about winning football games and not about corny *** slogans dressed up as CEO Speak.

Except that Golden sounding competent was actually backed up by Tangible results being building Temple into a winner.
You don't get Temple to 9 wins and a bowl appearance by being incompetent.

Golden needs to 2015 to get to where this program needs to be. That's just the reality of things.

 

[CaneAlmighty]

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet but Louisville looked physically stronger and faster than Miami. It almost looked like a FBS vs FCS team. Looks like there needs to be a change in Strength and Conditioning! Also, how in the **** you take Rosier over Harris in this years recruiting class? That is still bothering me. Golden=JAG?

Did UL work in as many freshmen into the Game as Miami did?

 

[3FW]

Geography has nothing to do with our problems. Winning is simple, recruit, develop, prepare, and last but not least have a winning QB.

 

[UMFarArcher]

Second, his background affects his talent evaluation. I don’t believe that Golden fully understands South Florida talent. If you want to learn about Golden’s evaluation principles, look at the guys he offers from his camp. These are less-heralded guys that he sees up close. What have the camps given us? Dwayne Hoillett, Larry Hope, Vernon Davis, Jake O’Donnell and Hunter Knighton. Not one contributor in the group.

Great take, D.

I disagree with the above, though. Being from the NE has very little to do with his talent evaluator abilities. Butch was a hayseed from the midwest and he is arguably the best in the biz. Saban is a hayseed from WV. etc. Maytbe you weren't talking geographical background but more experience background?

Coaches and players with connections to the state of Arkansas is without peer. Gus Malzahn, Butch Davis, Charlie Strong, Bear Bryant, Switzer, Jimmy Johnson, Petrino, Pat Summerall, Tubberville, Monte Kiffin, Danny Ford, Howard Schnellenberger, Gene Stallings, Pat Dye, Frank Broyles, Johnny Majors, Joe Gibbs, Norv Turner, and Hayden Fry, to name a few.

We don't need no more damned Yankees for coaches. They're slow, they like slow teams, slow players, and the progress slowly. It's not what they don't know that dooms them to mediocrity.

It's what they know that's wrong.

Might start combing the state of Arkansas.

Eh, I think there might be a correlation but not a causation. As someone previously stated - Chip Kelly is as NE as it gets. Urban/Les are from Ohio. Should we start combing WV for coaches since Jimbo and Saban are from there? You see my point?

I see you named two.

Even a blind squirrel on occasion finds a nut.

 

[bozcane]

As it relates to Golden's focus on what's important i'll offer this concern -

Stephen Morris had a peculiar sounding quote in the Herald follow-up article today. During a post-game interview he made this seemingly insignificant aside that struck me as odd, regarding what's next in his life:

"I think it will probably hit me tomorrow when I wake up and won't have a schedule from coach Golden and won't have a text saying where I need to be. It's been a pleasure here, man. It's been a true blessing. I'm blessed to say that all these coaches have truly left such a great mark on my life. It's changed me to a better man. I'm proud to say. Football is a game of wins and losses. Unfortunately we didn't win how we wanted to win. Sometimes we lost the way we loss. I'm always going to be proud to say I'm a Cane.

Read more here: http://miamiherald.typepad.com/umia...lks-championship-timetable.html#storylink=cpy

So is Golden such a control freak that he not only writes 300 page binders on core values, but he also regulates detailed, every day schedules for players? For all of them like this? When Morris leaves here whom will he look to to tell him what to do each day, now that his dependence on Golden must be transferred?

Maybe I misinterpreted what he said, but IMO this only weakens a player's mental capacity to think on his own, be proactive in shaping his own to-do's en route to being accountable every day. I would think it affect his self confidence on the field too.

(BTW, for those touting him as an alternative I'm told Schiano is a major nitpicking control freak in his own right, which was part of his undoing at Tampa, right down to detailing the brand and size of the bus that would transport player's luggage to the game in order to save 20 minutes getting to the plane for away games).

Meh. With Randy it was complete disorganization. Golden might be a bit OCD but it's much better than the alternative.

Why is it much better? At the end of the day the on field results are almost identical.

I'd say it's better to have structure, a foundation to build on - which Golden provided, yet remains to be seen how he builds on it, and if it's over the top OCD (like Morris's comment indicated to me) smothering the players in it would be counter productive as ****.

The similarity with Randy and Al's focus seems to be running hard on the herd, yet coaching up the kids totally missing. If we could fix the actual coaching up of players part - well we'd might have something going here.

 

[CANE4LIFE]

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet but Louisville looked physically stronger and faster than Miami. It almost looked like a FBS vs FCS team. Looks like there needs to be a change in Strength and Conditioning! Also, how in the **** you take Rosier over Harris in this years recruiting class? That is still bothering me. Golden=JAG?

Because UL was a much more talented team especially among their starters and upper classmen. Ive said this several times now, but I dont think we have more than 2 guys on defense that could start for UL's defense. Our upperclassmen are really sub par.

Even on offense, we just didnt have it going. No Duke, No Waters, our OL play was very sloppy and confused. SM wouldnt sniff Teddy B's jock.

UL was CLEARLY a more talented team. NOt sure how ANYONE can really argue this. We have talent, but its very young, and still developing.

Strong is also a very experienced and great defensive coach. This team was in a BCS bowl last year and spanked a top 5 UF team, and this year would have been back in a BCS bowl but for one bad quarter of football.

 

[CANE4LIFE]

As it relates to Golden's focus on what's important i'll offer this concern -

Stephen Morris had a peculiar sounding quote in the Herald follow-up article today. During a post-game interview he made this seemingly insignificant aside that struck me as odd, regarding what's next in his life:

"I think it will probably hit me tomorrow when I wake up and won't have a schedule from coach Golden and won't have a text saying where I need to be. It's been a pleasure here, man. It's been a true blessing. I'm blessed to say that all these coaches have truly left such a great mark on my life. It's changed me to a better man. I'm proud to say. Football is a game of wins and losses. Unfortunately we didn't win how we wanted to win. Sometimes we lost the way we loss. I'm always going to be proud to say I'm a Cane.

Read more here: http://miamiherald.typepad.com/umia...lks-championship-timetable.html#storylink=cpy

So is Golden such a control freak that he not only writes 300 page binders on core values, but he also regulates detailed, every day schedules for players? For all of them like this? When Morris leaves here whom will he look to to tell him what to do each day, now that his dependence on Golden must be transferred?

Maybe I misinterpreted what he said, but IMO this only weakens a player's mental capacity to think on his own, be proactive in shaping his own to-do's en route to being accountable every day. I would think it affect his self confidence on the field too.

(BTW, for those touting him as an alternative I'm told Schiano is a major nitpicking control freak in his own right, which was part of his undoing at Tampa, right down to detailing the brand and size of the bus that would transport player's luggage to the game in order to save 20 minutes getting to the plane for away games).

Meh. With Randy it was complete disorganization. Golden might be a bit OCD but it's much better than the alternative.

Why is it much better? At the end of the day the on field results are almost identical.

I'd say it's better to have structure, a foundation to build on - which Golden provided, yet remains to be seen how he builds on it, and if it's over the top OCD (like Morris's comment indicated to me) smothering the players in it would be counter productive as ****.

The similarity with Randy and Al's focus seems to be running hard on the herd, yet coaching up the kids totally missing. If we could fix the actual coaching up of players part - well we'd might have something going here.

Clearly. Absolutely NOTHIGN wrong with this. SM was the **** SENIOR starting QB and suppose to be leader of this team. He **** well needed to be on the ball and spending his time focused on this team and getting better.

IMO Golden doing this is absolutely RIGHT. Many of these kids come from backgrounds where NO ONE has ever taught them organization, planning, responsibility, and accountability. I mean he is the ANTI Coker/Shannon. Remember the "Coker Country Club" days? This is the OPPOSITE of that, and now we have people complaining about that.

Look, no question we got outcoached. We need to get better, and Golden has some serious work to do, but we are also not anywhere near where we need to be talent wise. I think another year or two and this team gets much better even if NOTHING happens. Coley is a young OC, but will imrpove. Having a QB with even half a brain, should really help him. We have a lot of YOUNG talent on this team, and it will imrpove.

But there is nothing wrong with being organized and having structure as a starter on this football team.

 

[DiegoCane]

Its a square peg trying to fit in a round hole on defense.

I was talking to a buddy of mine who is a college HC (smaller level but coached at 2 D1 colleges) about our defense. He hasn't watched us much but said he thinks with the talent we can get to make it simple. He said if you can get a pass rush with 4 guys that is the biggest advantage a college team can have. With those athlete there is no reason not to run an attacking style 4-3.

I know this is down the road but think of this:

DE- Chad Thomas
DT- Moten
DT- Valentine/Jenkins
DE- AQM/Jackson

Why over think that type of talent? Let them crush opposing offenses. I just fear the thought of watching Thomas, AQM, Jackson 10 yards down field and Valentine, Moten , Jenkins engaging OL and not attacking the football.

 

[AUcane]

Second, his background affects his talent evaluation. I don’t believe that Golden fully understands South Florida talent. If you want to learn about Golden’s evaluation principles, look at the guys he offers from his camp. These are less-heralded guys that he sees up close. What have the camps given us? Dwayne Hoillett, Larry Hope, Vernon Davis, Jake O’Donnell and Hunter Knighton. Not one contributor in the group.

Great take, D.

I disagree with the above, though. Being from the NE has very little to do with his talent evaluator abilities. Butch was a hayseed from the midwest and he is arguably the best in the biz. Saban is a hayseed from WV. etc. Maytbe you weren't talking geographical background but more experience background?

Coaches and players with connections to the state of Arkansas is without peer. Gus Malzahn, Butch Davis, Charlie Strong, Bear Bryant, Switzer, Jimmy Johnson, Petrino, Pat Summerall, Tubberville, Monte Kiffin, Danny Ford, Howard Schnellenberger, Gene Stallings, Pat Dye, Frank Broyles, Johnny Majors, Joe Gibbs, Norv Turner, and Hayden Fry, to name a few.

We don't need no more damned Yankees for coaches. They're slow, they like slow teams, slow players, and the progress slowly. It's not what they don't know that dooms them to mediocrity.

It's what they know that's wrong.

Might start combing the state of Arkansas.

Eh, I think there might be a correlation but not a causation. As someone previously stated - Chip Kelly is as NE as it gets. Urban/Les are from Ohio. Should we start combing WV for coaches since Jimbo and Saban are from there? You see my point?

I see you named two.

Even a blind squirrel on occasion finds a nut.

You're missing my point. I just looked at current coaches and found all of these examples of guys not necessarily having to be from a certain area in order to succeed with/understand sofla talent. You looked at coaches going back 30 years.

 

[nope44]

I think it's hard to get a complete evaluation of Goldens full ability to run a program considering the craphole of a program we had when he walked in. Lets not kid ourselves, we had terrible talent. We didn't have the talent that teams like Bama, Auburn and FSU had when their coaches walked in. Couple that with the Shapiro scandal and I don't expect us to be much further ahead, if at all, than we are now. Golden has a ton of real, real glaring problems and before this year many people said the same about Jimbo. I'm curious to see what, If any, growth Golden undergoes the next year.

That said, I didn't expect the defense to be good this year and that was a combination of talent and coaching. I think coach D is an anchor and if Golden refuses to can him because they are friends than he is showing an inability to grow. Those types of coaches end up getting fired.

I'm curious as to the language in his buyout as he is signed for six more years, if I'm not mistaken. The contract itself makes me think the administration will keep him at least through 2015, barring a season with 7 or less wins next year.

 

[FullyERicht]

Al Golden is a recruiter. He's poor with Xs and Os and he has hired a recruiting staff. Our players continue to stagnate.

Our S and C program is still a total joke, which is what happens when you retain the most rotten apple in the program and let him continue to run the most critical part of the program.

The bottom line is. This season was seen as a wild success by Shalala. It's sad but the program is finished and it's what she wanted.

 

[sabrose]

Hunter Knighton has been hurt Dissing the kid before he has ever played a down is inappropriate. Larry Hope may yet turn into a valuable asset as can Nate Dorch but they have been hurt as well. The camps are valuable. Everyone knows who the national studs are but these camps help find local guys who are just emerging so we get on them early.
Its pretty easy to dump on Golden after this loss. He can take it. He will brush it off and start reevaluating everything and make changes. I expect we will see a better team next year and alot of new faces. Its easy to join the lynch mob and harder to have patience. He will get 2 more years for sure .Judge him then .

 

[Hurracanes]

So after all these years, is it finally safe to say "Al just doesn't get it?"

 

[fastcane]

''But you can’t treat them the same way you treat Penn State players.''

Could you expand on this?


I will say, the way this generation of kids are training is much different from 30 years ago, in many schools. I can remember going to practice every day to watch Brockton MA practice, they were in the top 25 many times back then, even rated #1 for a few weeks before being beat by the top NJ Catholic school in a very close game. They had to play out of state teams all the time, in state schools wouldn't play them for a while, other than their league teams. I can remember a couple friends of mine were 290+ linemen doing 2 on ones with 160 lbs RB's in pouring rain and snow. Beat the living **** out of them, I don't see teams training that way now. Sleds for half the practice, those kids were rocks by mid season. Our RB's were tough as nails going into big games.

The coaches son took over 15 years back, I went to practice for over 2 months, didn't see anything close to a hard workout that his dad had. I asked one of the coaches that was still there for over 40 years, why there's no hard practices anymore. He laughed and said this generation of kids could never take the beatings, they didn't have the mental toughness of years ago. Been to many practices over the years in SF, never have I seen any close to as brutal as years ago. I'd imagine a hand full of these NJ teams with much less talent than the SF teams still train this way but they still can compete because their practices are much tougher. I'm just guessing though, The 70's and 80's teams in Brockton would absolutely kick the living **** out of the Brockton teams of today, not even close. From what I have seen, the SF kids have more potential but are more temperamental, not all but in most cases. We seem to have quite a few recruits this year that would fit right into those hard practices I remember. I think that is one of the things that have been missing at Miami for the past 10 years or so, in general. JMO

I’m not ready to lump Coach Golden with Shannon and Coker, at least not yet. He works too hard and is too smart.

But the reality is that the results have been the same. We are an annual embarrassment. There remain fundamental problems that Golden needs to overcome if he is going to succeed. Sorry about the length. But there are a lot of issues.

In my opinion, there is one issue that trumps them all: Coach Golden has not adapted his Northeastern mentality to a South Florida program. He is a New Jersey guy who coached at Penn State, Boston College, Virginia and Temple. His professional idols are Bill Parcells, Al Groh and Tom Coughlin. He is as pure of a Northeast guy as it gets.

This manifests itself in three ways. First, it affects the scheme he runs. This has been covered ad nasueum by others with much more technical knowledge. But, at bottom, this scheme is about strength and discipline and our talent pool is about athleticism and playmaking. It doesn't fit, and the results have been historically bad.

Second, his background affects his talent evaluation. I don’t believe that Golden fully understands South Florida talent. If you want to learn about Golden’s evaluation principles, look at the guys he offers from his camp. These are less-heralded guys that he sees up close. What have the camps given us? Dwayne Hoillett, Larry Hope, Vernon Davis, Jake O’Donnell and Hunter Knighton. Not one contributor in the group.

Third, the Northeastern mentality affects the way he deals with the athletes. He works these kids hard, which is a good thing. JJ and Schnellenberger worked their kids hard. The UTough program is an unquestioned improvement. But the volume of team-building, community service and Deserve Victory activities is starting to wear on guys. From everything I've heard, this was a tired and unhappy team at the end of the year. South Florida kids are a unique breed. They don’t lack for work ethic or toughness, which is why they succeed in the NFL. But you can’t treat them the same way you treat Penn State players.

Coach Coley understands South Florida talent, but that's not enough. Those guys still need to be coached. Stephen Morris played much better under Jedd Fisch. That's obvious. And although I appreciate Coley’s commitment to a power run game, the execution has been poor. Eduardo Clements is the team’s best short-yardage runner, but we kept giving those carries to Gus Edwards. Even my wife began to key on the personnel groupings—Malcolm Lewis may as well have run on the field with a leather helmet. I like Coach Coley and think he has a bright future, but he still has a lot to prove.

As for Coach D’Onofrio, this board has covered it pretty well. One thing sticks out, though, and it relates to my first point about Coach Golden. South Florida is a linebacker paradise. You could sustain two NFL teams with local linebackers. But in year three, Coach D is still relying on Jimmy Gaines and Tyrone Cornelius. We cooled on James Burgess. Now he's putting our running backs in body bags. Skai Moore was an obvious stud to everyone except the people that matter. These are just two examples. Like Parcells said, you are what your record says you are. Three years in, Coach D's record speaks for itself.

The optimist in me says Golden is smart enough to adapt. The pessimist in me says "you are what you are," especially when you write a 300-page book about your core values. The decisions he makes in the next few months will speak volumes.

 

[bigpurk45]

****... give me Charlie Strong! Imagine Miami with him as our head coach...

 

[Consigliere]

****... give me Charlie Strong! Imagine Miami with him as our head coach...

I don't think he is so special. I also think he will be tested when Bridgewater leaves and they go to the ACC.

He reminds me of Patterson at TCU. Both are defensive guys who were having a lot of success at inferior conferences. Now Patterson goes to the Big 12 and his record over the last 2 seasons is 11-14 (6-12).

 

[FullyERicht]

****... give me Charlie Strong! Imagine Miami with him as our head coach...

He'd probably be forced to keep Swasey, keep his kids as honor students and charity workers, drop any ideas about nutrition, and make sure his players never show any emotion on the field that might make our "not nearly as elite as they think" academic program look bad.

And then he'd never get a JUCO or borderline kid passed admissions. He'd have to kick kids out that would be given 5 more chances everywhere else. He'd lose recruits to middling SEC programs bc we don't buy players.

After all that I highly doubt he'd win more than 9 games. This is our sad reality. We ain't a football school anymore.