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Canes bs Tigers - ACC Championship - 2pm ESPNU/ACCN

NC_Canes_11 said:
And that’s fine. The coaches had 2 options. They chose option one and it did what they wanted it to do.

1. Go 2-0 in pool play to improve hosting. Whatever happens after that is gravy, whether it gets rained out or you get what actually happened, you run out of pitching.

2. Play to win the tourney. Go 1-1 in pool play to advance, throwing the one that didn’t matter. That means leaving yourself a full pen as well as Gallo and Rosario/Ligon to win 2 games. That also runs the risk of going 1-2 for the week.
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Option 1 was the smarter play because what we needed out of it and weather. Not like the Gallo start was anything other a wing and a prayer. They rolled the dice that Torres would not **** the bed today. Did not work out, but we got what we needed. We improved our seating. We got Ligon a start and got a great outing out of Rosario and a decent effort out of Gallo.
 
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Pentagon Cane said:
Option 1 was the smarter play because what we needed out of it and weather. Not like the Gallo start was anything other a wing and a prayer. They rolled the dice that Torres would not **** the bed today. Did not work out, but we got what we needed. We improved our seating. We got Ligon a start and got a great outing out of Rosario and a decent effort out of Gallo.
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It’s fine to believe that. The coaches did too. The idea that having the opposite opinion is wrong, is absurd. That’s my point. Especially bc it played out exactly like those of us who had the other opinion, predicted it would.

Either way, it was a successful week.
 
NC_Canes_11 said:
My complaint is Gallo and Walt. Gallo wasn’t available and Walt wasn’t available for more than one. If they were available, Rafe doesn’t go the 2nd, Torres never sees the mound and nobody else after him doesn’t either. Gallo starts and gives you at the very worst the same as Chestnutt. Probably better. Walt could’ve easily gone 40 pitches today if he hadn’t gone Friday and yesterday.

As I keep saying, the plan to win Friday at all costs, was a choice, not a necessity. You saying the rain played a part in that, is again, A CHOICE. It turned out to be the wrong choice.
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Come on now.

Please address my points:

1. Did WAKE FOREST also make a pitching change on Friday to try to win Pool Game 2? YES. And did they have a national seed at stake? NO. So the ONLY reason why Wake used a better pitcher on Friday was because of PRIDE, that they wanted to win the ACC Tournament, knowing full well that Saturday and Sunday might have been rained out. If we go to the Wake board, are they all whining about using that pitcher on Friday and him being unavailable on Saturday? NO. Because they are not going to act like crybabies over the use of ONE pitcher for ONE start.

2. Was Walters coming in to pitch 3 innings? NO. You are acting like the Duke and Wake games were the problem, yet he threw 14 and 13 pitches in those two games. He wasn't coming in at the beginning of the 7th because he never comes in that early, and NOT because of 14 and 13 pitches in the preceding two nights. Just be honest about it. Please PLEASE tell me about all the games where we trotted Walters out to start the 7th. I'll wait.

3. Finally, this "win at all costs" myth about the Friday game against Duke is complete nonsense. It's just a joke. Did we pitch Gallo for 4 and 1/3? Sure. But Wake made the same calculation, using a better pitcher on Friday, and you don't hear their fans whining and crying like small children. It's just silly. So let's break it down...if "Gallo" goes 5 innings (instead of Chestnutt/Scinta), what happens? Does he give up 3 fewer runs in 5 innings than they did? We gave up 8 runs in the 7th inning, this wasn't an issue with our starters. What, Chestnutt/Scinta would have been pitching in the 7th? Whatever. "Rafe doesn't go the 2nd inning"? Come on, he gave us a 1-2-3 inning in the 6th, let's not pretend he was a ticking time bomb. "Torres never sees the mound"? Really? And yet we used him in that "win at all costs" Duke game and he was fine. The only other time we used him was for FOUR pitches against Wake. So WHY would we not have used Torres? If you say "earlier this season", fine, but at least acknowledge he was fine in the tournament until today. And you completely ignore that we had Laquerica, who had looked good earlier. And you are inventing a pitch count possibility for Walters that, while possibly true, still doesn't put him on the mound to start the 7th.

It's all speculative. And for the record, I'm not ripping Arteaga. I think he should have let Rafe pitch farther into the 7th and should have brought Laquerica in instead of Torres.

And to put it another way, if Villegas makes that catch, we only trail 7-5. And we stranded 2 in the 8th and 3 in the 9th. So we COULD HAVE STILL WON THE GAME if we don't give up 4 runs after that drop happens.

So let's not act like it was ALL about "Gallo" or "Walters". The 7th inning was a mess, but half of it happened after an error that should have ended the inning.
 
TheOriginalCane said:
Come on now.

Please address my points:

1. Did WAKE FOREST also make a pitching change on Friday to try to win Pool Game 2? YES. And did they have a national seed at stake? NO. So the ONLY reason why Wake used a better pitcher on Friday was because of PRIDE, that they wanted to win the ACC Tournament, knowing full well that Saturday and Sunday might have been rained out. If we go to the Wake board, are they all whining about using that pitcher on Friday and him being unavailable on Saturday? NO. Because they are not going to act like crybabies over the use of ONE pitcher for ONE start.

2. Was Walters coming in to pitch 3 innings? NO. You are acting like the Duke and Wake games were the problem, yet he threw 14 and 13 pitches in those two games. He wasn't coming in at the beginning of the 7th because he never comes in that early, and NOT because of 14 and 13 pitches in the preceding two nights. Just be honest about it. Please PLEASE tell me about all the games where we trotted Walters out to start the 7th. I'll wait.

3. Finally, this "win at all costs" myth about the Friday game against Duke is complete nonsense. It's just a joke. Did we pitch Gallo for 4 and 1/3? Sure. But Wake made the same calculation, using a better pitcher on Friday, and you don't hear their fans whining and crying like small children. It's just silly. So let's break it down...if "Gallo" goes 5 innings (instead of Chestnutt/Scinta), what happens? Does he give up 3 fewer runs in 5 innings than they did? We gave up 8 runs in the 7th inning, this wasn't an issue with our starters. What, Chestnutt/Scinta would have been pitching in the 7th? Whatever. "Rafe doesn't go the 2nd inning"? Come on, he gave us a 1-2-3 inning in the 6th, let's not pretend he was a ticking time bomb. "Torres never sees the mound"? Really? And yet we used him in that "win at all costs" Duke game and he was fine. The only other time we used him was for FOUR pitches against Wake. So WHY would we not have used Torres? If you say "earlier this season", fine, but at least acknowledge he was fine in the tournament until today. And you completely ignore that we had Laquerica, who had looked good earlier. And you are inventing a pitch count possibility for Walters that, while possibly true, still doesn't put him on the mound to start the 7th.

It's all speculative. And for the record, I'm not ripping Arteaga. I think he should have let Rafe pitch farther into the 7th and should have brought Laquerica in instead of Torres.

And to put it another way, if Villegas makes that catch, we only trail 7-5. And we stranded 2 in the 8th and 3 in the 9th. So we COULD HAVE STILL WON THE GAME if we don't give up 4 runs after that drop happens.

So let's not act like it was ALL about "Gallo" or "Walters". The 7th inning was a mess, but half of it happened after an error that should have ended the inning.
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Torres was not all the strong but settled in the second inning on Friday. Threw 4 pitches yesterday. They were hoping for him to work us out of the 7th. It went poorly. We played 4 games and not one starter got through 5. We win 3 games against 4 tournament teams. Spit and glue performance.
 
WanderFranco said:
He’s talking about next week. Different format.
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More lies from you. Outside of his first few words abou next weekend, the REST OF HIS POST was about this weekend:

"This tournament's format was horrible for us. We just don't have the arms to go 4 days in a row. Clemson's staff is okay, but it was well rested. We needed a huge outing by Chestnutt. He just doesn't have the stuff to be anything other than a midweek guy. The good news is Rosario and Gallo gave us good innings. And Ligon should be good this weekend."
 
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TheOriginalCane said:
More lies from you. Outside of his first few words abou next weekend, the REST OF HIS POST was about this weekend:

"This tournament's format was horrible for us. We just don't have the arms to go 4 days in a row. Clemson's staff is okay, but it was well rested. We needed a huge outing by Chestnutt. He just doesn't have the stuff to be anything other than a midweek guy. The good news is Rosario and Gallo gave us good innings. And Ligon should be good this weekend."
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He was using the results of this weekend to talk about next weekend. You misinterpreted what he was saying. Not the end of the world.

This weekend showed that we can't afford to go to a game four. And we definitely can't lose game one or two and turn it into a five game weekend.
 
WanderFranco said:
We tried to tell you how it would play out, and that’s exactly what happened. We were out of arms, so we lost.
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We were not out of arms. That's the dopiest thing possible to say.

Villegas dropped a ball that led to 4 additional runs. If he doesn't do that, we are down by 2.

And, again, we stranded 2 in the 8th and 3 in the 9th.

THAT'S EXACTLY HOW THE ENTIRE TOURNAMENT PLAYED OUT. We were stranding huge numbers of runners in nearly every game. The REAL REASON we used a couple of extra pitchers is that every game was a close one, WHEN WE COULD HAVE HAD BIG LEADS IN EVERY GAME.

You want to make reasonable arguments? I'll listen.

But I won't listen when you lie. We didn't "run out of arms" against Wake because "Gallo". We **** the bed all tournament long with runners on base. THAT is why we lost. Every time we had a chance to push runs across, we didn't capitalize at the level we should have.

And Villegas dropped a ball.

We score more runs and Villegas catches the ball, we are ACC champs and nobody whines about "winning at all costs" against Duke.

It's just childish, what some of you are claiming. You don't even have any support in actual facts and events and outcomes.
 
scane said:
Ultimately, the base question is whether this staff is capable of advancing beyond a regional. We’ll get our answer next weekend.
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Definitely in the back of anyone who has truly followed this team’s mind…still a great conference showing, but nobody will remember that…..

except for that douchebag commentator who exalted Clemson for all of their conference championships today and said “Miami also has a pretty strong tradition”…😂😂
 
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TheOriginalCane said:
We were not out of arms. That's the dopiest thing possible to say.

Villegas dropped a ball that led to 4 additional runs. If he doesn't do that, we are down by 2.

And, again, we stranded 2 in the 8th and 3 in the 9th.

THAT'S EXACTLY HOW THE ENTIRE TOURNAMENT PLAYED OUT. We were stranding huge numbers of runners in nearly every game. The REAL REASON we used a couple of extra pitchers is that every game was a close one, WHEN WE COULD HAVE HAD BIG LEADS IN EVERY GAME.

You want to make reasonable arguments? I'll listen.

But I won't listen when you lie. We didn't "run out of arms" against Wake because "Gallo". We **** the bed all tournament long with runners on base. THAT is why we lost. Every time we had a chance to push runs across, we didn't capitalize at the level we should have.

And Villegas dropped a ball.

We score more runs and Villegas catches the ball, we are ACC champs and nobody whines about "winning at all costs" against Duke.

It's just childish, what some of you are claiming. You don't even have any support in actual facts and events and outcomes.
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We had a 5-3 lead and lost 11-5. We didn’t have the arms to get out of that. It’s okay if you disagree.
 
TheOriginalCane said:
No it wasn't.

Catching the ball, and hitting when you have runners in scoring position was our best case scenario. That, and winning the tournament, which was well within our reach.
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Based on how this season has gone, 3-1 against 4 tournament teams is as much as we could ask for. Most people thought Saturday was the ceiling.
 
WanderFranco said:
We tried to tell you how it would play out, and that’s exactly what happened. We were out of arms, so we lost.
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Sure.

As I've told @IndayArtHauz , none of your posts have anything to do with "defending the coaches". Your posts are all about you trying to find belated support for your arguments that we should have thrown the second Pool game.

That's all you care about. You're not defending Arteaga. Arteaga isn't to blame. Pitching wasn't to blame, although Torres sucked in the 7th.

Poor situational hitting put us into 4 consecutive close games. And one bad error put 4 extra runs on the board that we couldn't overcome.

Change those two things and we are champs and nobody says one thing about "pitching" or "winning at all costs in Pool Game 2".

That's the truth.
 
WanderFranco said:
We had a 5-3 lead and lost 11-5. We didn’t have the arms to get out of that. It’s okay if you disagree.
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We were down 7-5 when Villegas dropped the inning-ending fly ball.

And we stranded 5 guys in the next 2 innings.

Keep denying that those two things happened. It's not okay if you disagree.
 
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TheOriginalCane said:
Sure.

As I've told @IndayArtHauz , none of your posts have anything to do with "defending the coaches". Your posts are all about you trying to find belated support for your arguments that we should have thrown the second Pool game.

That's all you care about. You're not defending Arteaga. Arteaga isn't to blame. Pitching wasn't to blame, although Torres sucked in the 7th.

Poor situational hitting put us into 4 consecutive close games. And one bad error put 4 extra runs on the board that we couldn't overcome.

Change those two things and we are champs and nobody says one thing about "pitching" or "winning at all costs in Pool Game 2".

That's the truth.
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You’re the only one who cares enough to fight to the death. Most of us are ready for the regional announcement.
 
TheOriginalCane said:
Come on now.

Please address my points:

1. Did WAKE FOREST also make a pitching change on Friday to try to win Pool Game 2? YES. And did they have a national seed at stake? NO. So the ONLY reason why Wake used a better pitcher on Friday was because of PRIDE, that they wanted to win the ACC Tournament, knowing full well that Saturday and Sunday might have been rained out. If we go to the Wake board, are they all whining about using that pitcher on Friday and him being unavailable on Saturday? NO. Because they are not going to act like crybabies over the use of ONE pitcher for ONE start.

2. Was Walters coming in to pitch 3 innings? NO. You are acting like the Duke and Wake games were the problem, yet he threw 14 and 13 pitches in those two games. He wasn't coming in at the beginning of the 7th because he never comes in that early, and NOT because of 14 and 13 pitches in the preceding two nights. Just be honest about it. Please PLEASE tell me about all the games where we trotted Walters out to start the 7th. I'll wait.

3. Finally, this "win at all costs" myth about the Friday game against Duke is complete nonsense. It's just a joke. Did we pitch Gallo for 4 and 1/3? Sure. But Wake made the same calculation, using a better pitcher on Friday, and you don't hear their fans whining and crying like small children. It's just silly. So let's break it down...if "Gallo" goes 5 innings (instead of Chestnutt/Scinta), what happens? Does he give up 3 fewer runs in 5 innings than they did? We gave up 8 runs in the 7th inning, this wasn't an issue with our starters. What, Chestnutt/Scinta would have been pitching in the 7th? Whatever. "Rafe doesn't go the 2nd inning"? Come on, he gave us a 1-2-3 inning in the 6th, let's not pretend he was a ticking time bomb. "Torres never sees the mound"? Really? And yet we used him in that "win at all costs" Duke game and he was fine. The only other time we used him was for FOUR pitches against Wake. So WHY would we not have used Torres? If you say "earlier this season", fine, but at least acknowledge he was fine in the tournament until today. And you completely ignore that we had Laquerica, who had looked good earlier. And you are inventing a pitch count possibility for Walters that, while possibly true, still doesn't put him on the mound to start the 7th.

It's all speculative. And for the record, I'm not ripping Arteaga. I think he should have let Rafe pitch farther into the 7th and should have brought Laquerica in instead of Torres.

And to put it another way, if Villegas makes that catch, we only trail 7-5. And we stranded 2 in the 8th and 3 in the 9th. So we COULD HAVE STILL WON THE GAME if we don't give up 4 runs after that drop happens.

So let's not act like it was ALL about "Gallo" or "Walters". The 7th inning was a mess, but half of it happened after an error that should have ended the inning.
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What does Wake have to do with Miami? Nothing.

Walt got 7 outs on Thursday. Would’ve been no issue for him to try to get 9 today if he wouldn’t have thrown Friday and Saturday. You also would’ve had all the other options for the 7th, that pitched friday, if they wouldn’t have.

You keep quoting numbers of pitches, but fail to take into account warmups. If you’ve thrown 2-3 straight days and only throw 30 pitches total, you’ve actually thrown 60-80. You should never bring in someone 4 straight days.
 
TheOriginalCane said:
We were down 7-5 when Villegas dropped the inning-ending fly ball.

And we stranded 5 guys in the next 2 innings.

Keep denying that those two things happened. It's not okay if you disagree.
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So you agree that we gave up four runs in the 7th to blow the lead.
 
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NC_Canes_11 said:
What does Wake have to do with Miami? Nothing.

Walt got 7 outs on Thursday. Would’ve been no issue for him to try to get 9 today if he wouldn’t have thrown Friday and Saturday. You also would’ve had all the other options for the 7th, that pitched friday, if they wouldn’t have.

You keep quoting numbers of pitches, but fail to take into account warmups. If you’ve thrown 2-3 straight days and only throw 30 pitches total, you’ve actually thrown 60-80. You should never bring in someone 4 straight days.
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This is basic knowledge for most. Ups and downs are at least as important as actual pitches thrown.
 
Pentagon Cane said:
Torres was not all the strong but settled in the second inning on Friday. Threw 4 pitches yesterday. They were hoping for him to work us out of the 7th. It went poorly. We played 4 games and not one starter got through 5. We win 3 games against 4 tournament teams. Spit and glue performance.
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All true.

At the same time, we stranded a MASSIVE number of baserunners.

It's just funny, when I said BEFORE THE TOURNAMENT that it would have been nice (and helpful to our pitching staff) to have more days off, two posters in particular **** on me.

Now that we actually saw that our pitching held up very well, and that our situational hitting was TERRIBLE (not to mention one of the worst-timed and worst-impact errors I've ever seen Miami make), these same two posters are acting like we "ran out of arms", all because Gallo went 4 and 1/3 on Friday.

Hilarious.
 
WanderFranco said:
So you agree that we gave up four runs in the 7th to blow the lead.
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Nobody ever denied Torres gave up 4 runs.

But YOU are acting like we couldn't have come back from 2 runs down in the 8th or 9th.

Pathetic. I'll bet the Celtics are happy you're not a fan.
 
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