forums

Canes bs Tigers - ACC Championship - 2pm ESPNU/ACCN

Advertisement
WanderFranco said:
A dropped fly ball doesn’t result in any runs if there are no runners on base before or after the error. Maybe don’t throw BP to the other 12 guys in the inning.
Click to expand...
I see your Gators got knocked out by Vandy yesterday in the SEC tournament
 
WanderFranco said:
No one knows what would have happened. But ideally you have more arms available than fewer. When you have fewer, you tend to give up 11 runs to a top 8 national seed.
Click to expand...


Again...that's not what happened.

And you WOULD know what would have happened. At least within some reasonable margin.

COULD Gallo have shut Clemson down, instead of giving up 3 runs like Chestnutt did? YES, but as you point out, we lost by 6. Which means the 7th inning was the determinant, not the starter.

COULD Clemson have scored 8 runs in the 7th if Villegas catches the ball? NO. That's not speculation, that's reality.

COULD Miami have scored 3 runs in the 8th or 9th if they are only down by 2 and they have 5 base runners across 2 innings? While this may be the most speculative point of all, it's a definite YES if if if we actually do a good job of situational hitting.

As before, you are still wrong. This was not about the pitching. We didn't give up "11 runs" because our pitching was terrible. We gave up 4 runs to terrible pitching and 4 runs to an idiotic error.

All of our "tired pitching arms" didn't cause Villegas to drop that ball.
 
Advertisement
TheOriginalCane said:
Again...that's not what happened.

And you WOULD know what would have happened. At least within some reasonable margin.

COULD Gallo have shut Clemson down, instead of giving up 3 runs like Chestnutt did? YES, but as you point out, we lost by 6. Which means the 7th inning was the determinant, not the starter.

COULD Clemson have scored 8 runs in the 7th if Villegas catches the ball? NO. That's not speculation, that's reality.

COULD Miami have scored 3 runs in the 8th or 9th if they are only down by 2 and they have 5 base runners across 2 innings? While this may be the most speculative point of all, it's a definite YES if if if we actually do a good job of situational hitting.

As before, you are still wrong. This was not about the pitching. We didn't give up "11 runs" because our pitching was terrible. We gave up 4 runs to terrible pitching and 4 runs to an idiotic error.

All of our "tired pitching arms" didn't cause Villegas to drop that ball.
Click to expand...
They had 13 hits. Quit blaming the error.
 
TheOriginalCane said:
Again, you refuse to acknowledge reality.

Your SAVIOR Gallo, who was going to be THE GUY to save us against Wake or Clemson, couldn't even get out of the 5th inning against DUKE. But we've got guys trying to tell us that he would have been SOOOOO much better than Chestnutt.

It's ridiculous.

You don't want to pitch the relievers as much? SCORE RUNS.

And the relievers who pitched every day...ARE NOT NAMED TORRES. Torres threw FOUR pitches to one batte the day before, let's not act like the poor guy was some overworked donkey. Oh, but "warmups". Oh, but "ups and downs".

Why can't you be honest? Just deal with these stats.

We scored 4 runs, 7 runs, 7 runs, and 5 runs. Never once did we hit the magic number of 8 runs (in which we have only lost one game, in extras).

Of these 23 runs:

1. We scored 7 runs on 6 HRs: FIVE one-run HRs, and ONE two-run HR. So only ONE of our six HRs came with a man on base.
2. We scored 4 runs on battery mistake: TWO wild pitches, ONE passed ball, and ONE bases-loaded walk.
3. Therefore, we only 12 runs in 4 games in normal "men on base" situations via hits (11 runs scored on hits, 1 run scored on a fielder's choice).

Now, one could say "hey, that sounds great, I'd gladly take 3 runs per game from hitting with men on bases. Really? Consider this.

1. NC State - we had men on bases in 8 out of the 9 innings when our final batter was up. There were FIFTEEN men on base when our final batter was up each inning (we won by 2).
2.. Duke - we had men on bases in all 8 innings when our final batter was up (we did not hit in the 9th). There were FOURTEEN men on base when our final batter was up each inning (we won by 1).
3. Wake - we had men on bases in 6 of 9 innings when our final batter was up. There were EIGHT men on base when our final batter was up each inning (and this was our largest margin of victory).
4. Clemson - we had men on bases in 7 of 9 innings when our final batter was up. There were TWELVE men on base when our final batter was up each inning.

Now, the absolute WORST you can do is to leave 27 men on bases in a 9 inning game. We left 15 base runners, 14 base runners, and 12 base runners in Games 1, 2, and 4.

If Miami had lost out in pitching duels, that would be one thing. But we CONSISTENTLY destroyed ourselves by NOT HITTING when we had men on bases. We had 49 base runners that we could have cashed in. But in reality, when hitting with men on bases (not counting HRs), we scored 1 run, 4 runs, 5 runs, and 2 runs in our four games.

Now, step back from the ledge, stop huffing the "but Gallo" myth, and look at HOW BADLY WE HIT with baserunners. It's beyond obvious what ACTUALLY happened.

Not to mention the Villegas error, which cost us 4 runs.

It's time to be honest. If we cash in EVEN 25% OF THOSE 49 BASE RUNNERS, it's an extra 12 runs. That would give us an extra margin of victory against NC State. That would get us to the magic 8 runs against Duke and Wake. And it would have beaten Clemson if not for the Villegas error.

Someone, go find @Canesfreak . Ask him for the texts that we've exchanged about our lack of situational hitting.

And then figure out that if we had 3 more runs against Clemson, and prevented them from scoring the 4 due to Villegas' error, what the outcome would have been.

Spoiler alert: IT'S NOT THE PITCHING, STUPID.
Click to expand...
So if we score 20 runs a game it won’t matter who’s on the mound? If that’s the case, why don’t we always do that? Can’t believe nobody’s ever thought of that before.
 
In a game where you gave up 11 runs, the take away is that you should have scored 12 runs, not that you should have saved your best pitching. Incredible.
 
Advertisement
WanderFranco said:
They had 13 hits. Quit blaming the error.
Click to expand...


"13 hits". That's what you do, you provide context-less stats and act like you have successfully dropped the microphone.

They had 4 hits in the 7th prior to the error. The first 3 hits resulted in runs, and the 4th hit indirectly led to a run during the error.

Why can't you ever be honest? They had 6 hits in the 7th that led to 8 runs. Before that, they had 7 hits that led to 3 runs.

You act as if they pounded us all game long, which they did not.

I'm not blaming the error for the loss. I'm pointing out that the error led to 4 of the 8 runs in that inning, and without that error, we are well within range to win the game, particularly with 5 baserunners in 2 innings.
 
NC_Canes_11 said:
So if we score 20 runs a game it won’t matter who’s on the mound? If that’s the case, why don’t we always do that? Can’t believe nobody’s ever thought of that before.
Click to expand...


Ah, yes. Gross oversimplification. It's your brand.

We've already discussed that we won EVERY GAME THIS YEAR (except 1, which went to extra innings) in which we scored 8 runs or more. So, yeah, exaggerate and come up with "20 runs" as your silly example.

And we only need two things to be ACC champs right now. Score 8 runs. And have Villegas catch the ball.

Pitching is still important. Nobody said "it won't matter who's on the mound". But exaggerate that one too.

Torres gave up 4 runs. It's survivable. But we have a bunch of folks who would prefer to argue that our fate was determined the minute that DiMare penciled in Gatto as the starter against Duke.

It's just insane. Particularly since you REFUSE to discuss the 29 innings where we had 49 runners on base. It would be one thing if I was just speculating that we coulda/woulda/shoulda scored more runs. It's completely different when you have 49 base runners over 4 games that you can't cash in.
 
NC_Canes_11 said:
In a game where you gave up 11 runs, the take away is that you should have scored 12 runs, not that you should have saved your best pitching. Incredible.
Click to expand...


Gatto wasn't "our best pitching", no matter how much you want to believe that. He gave up 2 runs in 4 and 1/3 innings to DUKE, and you are still acting like "saving him" would have won us the Tournament.

Since you're not going to acknowledge it voluntarily, I'll ask you directly to comment on the situational hitting.

And I'll ask you to rank the following two possible reasons for our loss to Clemson:

1. Four games worth of terrible hitting with men on bases, where we failed to cash in 49 base-runners in 29 innings (the other 6 innings we went down with no base-runners), and when 5 of our 6 home runs were solo shots....

OR...

2. We pitched a guy who gave up 2 runs in 4 and 1/3 innings on Friday, instead of on Sunday, when he could have replaced a guy who gave up 3 runs in 3 innings...

I mean, I know you're going to pick #2 (and tell me about "warmups" and "ups and downs" for short relievers), but it's just ridiculous.
 
TheOriginalCane said:
Gatto wasn't "our best pitching", no matter how much you want to believe that. He gave up 2 runs in 4 and 1/3 innings to DUKE, and you are still acting like "saving him" would have won us the Tournament.

Since you're not going to acknowledge it voluntarily, I'll ask you directly to comment on the situational hitting.

And I'll ask you to rank the following two possible reasons for our loss to Clemson:

1. Four games worth of terrible hitting with men on bases, where we failed to cash in 49 base-runners in 29 innings (the other 6 innings we went down with no base-runners), and when 5 of our 6 home runs were solo shots....

OR...

2. We pitched a guy who gave up 2 runs in 4 and 1/3 innings on Friday, instead of on Sunday, when he could have replaced a guy who gave up 3 runs in 3 innings...

I mean, I know you're going to pick #2 (and tell me about "warmups" and "ups and downs" for short relievers), but it's just ridiculous.
Click to expand...
I’ll simplify it even further for you. Take starting pitching out of it. All that had to happen was Leq not pitch Friday and Walt not pitch Friday or Saturday. There are your 9 outs when we’re up 5-3. Kids raise the trophy and this board is a circle jerk until regionals start.

No matter what you say about hitting, it doesn’t matter. That’s only 1/3 of the game. You lose way more than you win, when you give up 11 runs. That dropped fly ball wouldn’t have led to runs if Rafe wouldn’t have been sent out there dead tired and given up 2 baserunners. Torres would not have gotten the ball in that situation with Leq and Walt fresh.
 
Advertisement
NC_Canes_11 said:
I’ll simplify it even further for you. Take starting pitching out of it. All that had to happen was Leq not pitch Friday and Walt not pitch Friday or Saturday. There are your 9 outs when we’re up 5-3. Kids raise the trophy and this board is a circle jerk until regionals start.

No matter what you say about hitting, it doesn’t matter. That’s only 1/3 of the game. You lose way more than you win, when you give up 11 runs. That dropped fly ball wouldn’t have led to runs if Rafe wouldn’t have been sent out there dead tired and given up 2 baserunners. Torres would not have gotten the ball in that situation with Leq and Walt fresh.
Click to expand...


Now I know you've lost the thread. "That's only 1/3 of the game". Sure. But it's the "1/3 of the game" that determines winners and losers. And what about YOU? YOU are the one putting all the blame on the "1/3 of the game" involving pitching, so stop trying to pretend that you are being reasonable and I'm being unreasonable.

Once again, we won EVERY GAME THIS YEAR (except 1 in extra innings) in which we scored 8 runs. We had a similar stat in basketball this year, where we won every single game (except one OT game) where we scored 80 points or more.

Are there still other factors, such as defense? OF COURSE. But the object of the game is to score more runs than the other team. Read the rulebook sometime.

You want to know how crazy you are? This is what you said:

"All that had to happen was Leq not pitch Friday [HE THREW FOUR PITCHES ON FRIDAY!] and Walt not pitch Friday or Saturday [HE THREW 14 PITCHES ON FRIDAY AND 13 PITCHES ON SATURDAY]".

So your entire argument is that if Leq doesn't throw to ONE batter for FOUR pitches on Friday, and Walters doesn't throw to FOUR batters for FOURTEEN pitches on Friday, suddenly they are able to cover three entire innings?

Hilarious.

And please don't tell me about "warmups" and "ups and downs". The two pitchers you are referring to involved 1/3 of an inning (Lequerica) and two instances of a 1-inning duration (Walters pitched the 9th innings on Friday and Saturday).

How 1 and 1/3 unpitched Friday innings turn into 3 Sunday innings...I'll never know...
 
We really do have some terrible fans. We're about to get a top-10 seed, won 21 ACC games, and god forbid lost a title game in a large part because, at least some think, Gino should be able to see into the future re: pitcher usage.

People I'd think should be excited about the way the team closed the season. They went 8-2 in ACC series and Gino finally showed he could get a team locked in for post-season play. Losing to a red-hot Clemson team shouldnt cause this reaction.

Then again, the meltdown crew are the same people who make excuses for FSU/Link Jarrett and think Lovelady is a great coach
 
TheOriginalCane said:
Now I know you've lost the thread. "That's only 1/3 of the game". Sure. But it's the "1/3 of the game" that determines winners and losers. And what about YOU? YOU are the one putting all the blame on the "1/3 of the game" involving pitching, so stop trying to pretend that you are being reasonable and I'm being unreasonable.

Once again, we won EVERY GAME THIS YEAR (except 1 in extra innings) in which we scored 8 runs. We had a similar stat in basketball this year, where we won every single game (except one OT game) where we scored 80 points or more.

Are there still other factors, such as defense? OF COURSE. But the object of the game is to score more runs than the other team. Read the rulebook sometime.

You want to know how crazy you are? This is what you said:

"All that had to happen was Leq not pitch Friday [HE THREW FOUR PITCHES ON FRIDAY!] and Walt not pitch Friday or Saturday [HE THREW 14 PITCHES ON FRIDAY AND 13 PITCHES ON SATURDAY]".

So your entire argument is that if Leq doesn't throw to ONE batter for FOUR pitches on Friday, and Walters doesn't throw to FOUR batters for FOURTEEN pitches on Friday, suddenly they are able to cover three entire innings?

Hilarious.

And please don't tell me about "warmups" and "ups and downs". The two pitchers you are referring to involved 1/3 of an inning (Lequerica) and two instances of a 1-inning duration (Walters pitched the 9th innings on Friday and Saturday).

How 1 and 1/3 unpitched Friday innings turn into 3 Sunday innings...I'll never know...
Click to expand...
I’ll repeat what I said earlier, if you don’t understand ups and downs and warmup pitches that comes with pitching 4 days in a row, this conversation is pointless. Nobody should ever do that in a conference tourney. If this was Omaha it can be explained away, but not for this weekend.
 
Advertisement
TheRichtShow said:
We really do have some terrible fans. We're about to get a top-10 seed, won 21 ACC games, and god forbid lost a title game in a large part because, at least some think, Gino should be able to see into the future re: pitcher usage.

People I'd think should be excited about the way the team closed the season. They went 8-2 in ACC series and Gino finally showed he could get a team locked in for post-season play. Losing to a red-hot Clemson team shouldnt cause this reaction.

Then again, the meltdown crew are the same people who make excuses for FSU/Link Jarrett and think Lovelady is a great coach
Click to expand...
Everybody here is happy with this week. A few of us are just saying we would have done it differently.

He didn’t see the future. He made a choice to prioritize going 2-0. His plan worked to improve seeding, but wasn’t smart if he wanted to win today. I’m not sure how saying his plan worked but wasn’t what I would have done, is seen as some outlandish argument. It’s a forum. That’s what this place is for. This place questions starting Rosario and bullpen decisions every week. This is no different.
 
TheRichtShow said:
We really do have some terrible fans. We're about to get a top-10 seed, won 21 ACC games, and god forbid lost a title game in a large part because, at least some think, Gino should be able to see into the future re: pitcher usage.

People I'd think should be excited about the way the team closed the season. They went 8-2 in ACC series and Gino finally showed he could get a team locked in for post-season play. Losing to a red-hot Clemson team shouldnt cause this reaction.

Then again, the meltdown crew are the same people who make excuses for FSU/Link Jarrett and think Lovelady is a great coach
Click to expand...
Keep sleeping on Link Jarrett. He has already done more than Gino DiMare as a head coach, and he did it in Indiana.
 
Just emailed this proposed batting order to Gino; let's see what he says:

CF Long
1B Kayfus
3B Morales
2B Cyr
RF Levenson
DH Renzo
LF Villegas
SS Pitelli
C Perez
 
rok said:
Just emailed this proposed batting order to Gino; let's see what he says:

CF Long
1B Kayfus
3B Morales
2B Cyr
RF Levenson
DH Renzo
LF Villegas
SS Pitelli
C Perez
Click to expand...
A fleet without a carrier has no hope of winning the battle.
 
Advertisement
Back
Top