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WR recruiting profile

DMoney said:
Separation, quickness and route-running is the name of the game in the NFL. You need to be able to beat press and then uncover quickly at the top of the route.

A lot of our worst misses are guys that fit this exact profile, which is so common in South Florida. Punt returners in particular are very good at beating press (equivalent to making the first tackler miss on a return), separating with quickness and catching in crowded spaces.

I'd boil down our WR woes to two main issues:

(1) Turning down too many talented small guys in favor of size. Some of these names are true sleepers, others we flat-out passed on: TY Hilton, Antonio Brown, Marquise Brown, Elijah Moore, TuTu Atwell, John Brown and Isaiah McKenzie. Those are all easily attainable pros who could have helped us. Zay Flowers at Boston College is a recent example.

(2) Losing battles. Amari Cooper, Jerry Jeudy and Calvin Ridley fit this category. We won the battle for Ahmmon Richards and then he got hurt. That's four first rounders right there.
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Facts!!!
 
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Sad thing is in college it's much easier for schools to find wrs because innthe NFL you can't just be a freak you have the have the ability as a true wr to work. I don't care how big you are Greg Carr the last big, slow, unathletic wr to work somewhat years ago is not working today because there's too much athleticism at DB. Find the wrs who are quick, get in and out of breaks, catch the ball with their hands consistently, study the CBs they're facing to see their flaws, have legitimate body control to make tough catches when needed and field awareness to know where the sideline is naturally. Seems like a lot but if you're making the NFL all of those areas are a must
 
Give me HS productivity + work ethic + playmaking ability for a college WR over literally everything else. I don't care if he is 5'9" and runs a 4.71. If a kid is consistently producing against solid competition, is lauded as a hard worker by his coaches and teammates, and has demonstrated the ability to turn punts and short throws into TDs, then sign him up. I'm over the infatuation with height/weight, 40 times, and vertical jump at the position. Without really solid hands, care and attention to the details of the craft, mental and physical toughness, and a "nose for the end zone", those athletic traits are practically worthless.
 
DMoney said:
Our biggest issue is not signing enough guys who are quick and can separate. Pope is an anomaly. He was misevaluated by everyone. That general profile -- dynamic South Florida punt returner - is what we should be signing every year.

Now, I've been banging the same drum on intangibles. Look at the guys who have succeeded here lately. But work ethic needs to be paired with playmaking ability and athleticism. That's Moore, Atwell, TY Hilton and the Browns. Dynamic ability is even more important in college because it's easier to manufacture touches.

Here are our receivers since 2008. The guys that succeeded were generally electric, returner-types with character. The rest failed for a bunch of different reasons.

The hits:

Travis Benjamin- Punt returner with track speed. Approaching a decade in the NFL.
Phillip Dorsett- Punt returner with track speed. First round pick.
Allen Hurns- Tough QB/WR who excelled at camp. Intangibles guy. Seven-year pro.
Stacy Coley- Fragile but dynamic with PR skills. Top 5 in all-time receiving yards.
Braxton Berrios- NFL punt returner.
KJ Osborn- NFL punt returner.
Mike Harley- Quick and fast- 10.7 100M and 4.00 shuttle.

The misses:

Aldarius Johnson- Slow contested-catch guy.
Robert Lockhart- Slow contested-catch guy.
D'Mauri Jones- Slow contested-catch guy.
Jontavious Carter- Slow contested-catch guy.
Darrell Langham- Slow contested-catch guy.
Brian Hightower- Slow contested-catch guy.
Lawrence Cager- Slow contested-catch guy with solid quickness. Would be a hit if not for transfer.
Davon Johnson- Straight-line speed guy. KR instead of a PR.
Tommy Streeter- Straight-line speed guy. Arguably a hit but limited.
Dee Wiggins- Straight-line speed guy. Bad hands.
Thearon Collier- Off-field discipline.
Sam Bruce- Off-field discipline.
Dionte Mullins- Off-field discipline.
Jeff Thomas- Off-field discipline.
Laron Byrd- Big and tough. Not dynamic.
Kendall Thompkins- Small. Not dynamic.
Rashawn Scott- Big-bodied athlete, smooth but not explosive. Practice squad.
Malcolm Lewis- Injured and never fully recovered.
Ahmmon Richards- Injured, medical retirement.
Herb Waters- Great athlete who should have been playing CB.
Evidence Njoku- Injuries and discipline.
Mark Pope- Learning issues. Poor hands. Dynamic HS returner.
Marquez Ezzard- Athletic but not fast. Transfer.

My takeaways are that (1) we need to do a better job of signing the punt returners/playmakers that grow on trees down here; (2) we need to pair that ability with solid work ethic and character.
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I'm not sure the punt returner point is proven by your post but you are probably onto a form of rough screen here. Guys who return punts tend to be relatively fearless in traffic, which is a proxy for toughness and willingness to take a hit, IMO. Or they wouldn't be returning punts. They're also quick and can create separation almost by definition. So they tend to have the combination we should look for. I say your list doesn't show it well because Hurns wasn't that, and Berrios was Mr. Fair Catch at UM, and Osborn was a transfer so hard to comment on him as a recruit (everyone passed on him). Harley is decently fast but has barely returned punts iirc (did return kicks in '20). And Dorsett was KOR not PR (like Davon) IIRC. Probably similar in terms of lack of fear but not as good a proxy for creating separation, IMO.

What stands out from the rest of the list is a mix of flaws. Not sure I agree with your labeling of the top group as 'slow contested catch guys.' Most of them were not contested catch guys in actuality - Langham made some tough catches, most of them didn't use their body well (table stakes for bigger players) or want to take a hit. Carter and Jones should never have been offered. Those were Golden camp mistakes. Group your misses list on guys who catch with their hands, are tough, used their body well, had discipline in routes and blocked downfield. You'll eliminate most of them. Narrow again for kids who just couldn't stay in school at all (add T. Brady to your list). That's basically the end of the inquiry. Richards was big time.

We do seem to agree that we way over-invested in 'big guys' who weren't good for a long while. The idea we need a big body at receiver is flawed. We can use big guys who are good, sure. But big guys who aren't good are useless. Also, agree with you that 'straight line' speed isn't a good proxy for WR skills. Maybe if you're 6'4", run like the wind, have a 40 inch vertical and terrific hands, then it matters. Short of Randy Moss, it seems like a low probability rationale. Get guys who fit the profile.

The other thing that stands out is just mind-set. Want to say character but not sure it's fair to all those kids. Some were lazy, some didn't like to take a hit, some didn't like to follow rules, some carried their mistakes with them. There are a lot of focus and determination issues at WR - maybe more than at most other positions. You're out there alone. Everyone sees your drops. The top group are just really solid kids for the most part. The one kid who left and did well elsewhere was Tyre Brady. He had two good years at Marshall.
 
@DMoney I'm curious where you would place Brinson, George and Smith? Smith's the only burner in that group, and as far as I can tell isn't in the Atwell, Benjamin, Moore, Dorsett level. Yet I feel like he's a baller and will be one at a high P5 level at Miami, too.
 
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DMoney said:
Separation, quickness and route-running is the name of the game in the NFL. You need to be able to beat press and then uncover quickly at the top of the route.

A lot of our worst misses are guys that fit this exact profile, which is so common in South Florida. Punt returners in particular are very good at beating press (equivalent to making the first tackler miss on a return), separating with quickness and catching in crowded spaces.

I'd boil down our WR woes to two main issues:

(1) Turning down too many talented small guys in favor of size. Some of these names are true sleepers, others we flat-out passed on: TY Hilton, Antonio Brown, Marquise Brown, Elijah Moore, TuTu Atwell, John Brown and Isaiah McKenzie. Those are all easily attainable pros who could have helped us. Zay Flowers at Boston College is a recent example.

(2) Losing battles. Amari Cooper, Jerry Jeudy and Calvin Ridley fit this category. We won the battle for Ahmmon Richards and then he got hurt. That's four first rounders right there.
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I totally agree, but I might add having a really good to great QB would help lure WR as well. Once kids get a look at Garcia we'll get more.
 
South Florida produces at least 8 guys a year at the WR position who could legitimately help us win football games.

Even if 3-4 of them bail for the SEC, we should be loaded every year.

I think there's enough intersection that I can get on board with both of esf/D$'s observations here. I think the focus on size has been the biggest issue rather than a focus on separation. When you are Saudi Arabia, you don't push nuclear energy. Pump the oil baby. Forget about a hard focus on signing the next Andre Johnson and load the roster with Travis Benjamins. I would rather miss on a Mark Pope than continue whiffing on all the Dee Wiggins guys out there. It seems like we have signed 25 dudes like Wiggins the last 15 years and never hit. These Travis Benjamin type kids are everywhere in South Florida and too many of them get ignored. Look for the guys who separate with that PR profile D$ mentioned that also have that grinder/little things mentality ESF mentions. There are plenty who do both!!!!
 
Size is pretty irrelevant at the slot. You don't get press coverage there. You'd prefer a quicker guy at that spot because there's more space to work, you have a 3-way go, etc.
Plus a quick/fast guy can get to the Safety much faster. This gives the secondary problems.

It's good to have big WR's on the outside though. You generally get bigger Corners out there, more press coverage, there's less space to work with for a small/quick guy, etc. There's really only 2 type of routes you can run...vertical stemmed routes or inside routes...and it's good to have size on those routes in order to "box out" the CB.

Generally CB's are the fastest players on the field. (by NFL combine averages)
If you have a whole WR unit of small fast guys, there's a good chance that the defense can match-up with that. (they have small fast guys in the secondary)
However, it's hard to match-up with a 6'3"-6'5" WR on the outside, doesn't matter how fast your CB is. He's gonna get "boxed out" by that big WR.

I've been doing this for 15 years. Have faced tons of "fast" D1 level WR's down here. Completely shut-down two "fast" First Team All State WR's in 2019-2020. (just kept a Safety over the top) However, nobody has given me more problems than Western's Julian Lewis...cause he was so **** big and physical. We had no answer for him. Our CB's last season were simply too small. He would catch the ball even with our CB draped all over him. Same thing would happen in practice versus Bryce Gowdy a couple years ago. When facing fast WR's (Brian Robinson in 2019 for example) we just used our big CB to beat him up at the LOS and then kept a Safety over the top of him. But that doesn't really do **** when facing a big/physical WR who's 3+ inches taller than your CB... cause he's "bodying" your little CB on every short/intermediate route.

This is one of the reasons size/length matters at the CB position. (also longer reach/defensive radius)
Covering a small/quick WR with big CB's is easier than covering big WR's with small/average CB's.
Big WR's are always open, even when they're covered.

(referring mainly to the outside WR's)
 
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It's similar to the discussion we've been having with linebacker recently. Would it be great if we could sign a bunch of 6'3" 240 guys who run 4.5? Sure but those types aren't exactly common. So you look for traits that aren't measurable and focus your evaluations on that. Maybe a guy is shorter than ideal. Maybe the guy is lighter than ideal. Does he have the ability to diagnose and make plays? Is he constantly around the ball making tackles? Can he cover backs and receivers in man to man situations? Does he never look overwhelmed despite his lack of size? These are characteristics staffs need to consider when recruiting instead of over focusing on size and measurables and assuming they can be coached into good linebackers. Give me the smart guys with instincts and we'll let the strength coach work on adding muscle to his frame.
 
Coach Macho said:
Size is pretty irrelevant at the slot. You don't get press coverage there. You'd prefer a quicker guy at that spot because there's more space to work, you have a 3-way go, etc.
Plus a quick/fast guy can get to the Safety much faster. This gives the secondary problems.

It's good to have big WR's on the outside though. You generally get bigger Corners out there, more press coverage, there's less space to work with for a small/quick guy, etc. There's really only 2 type of routes you can run...vertical stemmed routes or inside routes...and it's good to have size on those routes in order to "box out" the CB.

Generally CB's are the fastest players on the field. (by NFL combine averages)
If you have a whole WR unit of small fast guys, there's a good chance that the defense can match-up with that. (they have small fast guys in the secondary)
However, it's hard to match-up with a 6'3"-6'5" WR on the outside, doesn't matter how fast your CB is. He's gonna get "boxed out" by that big WR.

I've been doing this for 15 years. Have faced tons of "fast" D1 level WR's down here. Completely shut-down two "fast" First Team All State WR's in 2019-2020. (just kept a Safety over the top) However, nobody has given me more problems than Western's Julian Lewis...cause he was so **** big and physical. We had no answer for him. Our CB's last season were simply too small. He would catch the ball even with our CB draped all over him. Same thing would happen in practice versus Bryce Gowdy a couple years ago. When facing fast WR's (Brian Robinson in 2019 for example) we just used our big CB to beat him up at the LOS and then kept a Safety over the top of him. But that doesn't really do **** when facing a big/physical WR who's 3+ inches taller than your CB... cause he's "bodying" your little CB on every short/intermediate route.

This is one of the reasons size/length matters at the CB position. (also longer reach/defensive radius)
Covering a small/quick WR with big CB's is easier than covering big WR's with small/average CB's.
Big WR's are always open, even when they're covered.

(referring mainly to the outside WR's)
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Good stuff, size is not the end all but it sure helps on the outside, and we need to get bigger there IMO.

That's why I am all about Horton and his ability to get the ball
 
Ethnicsands said:
The Ibieta discussion sheds light on our overall WR approach. My $0.02:

In the NFL, WRs have to be physically terrific, because DBs are so talented, and defenses overall are sophisticated and coordinated well. Small differences matter a lot and too many unforced errors means you’re cut or sent to the practice squad. Likewise, DBs have to be great because see point 1.

In college, DBs aren’t as good, defenses aren’t as well practiced or coordinated, so the critical needs of a WR are different. It’s not as hard to get open, but unforced errors still cost downs and wins. And willingness to do the little things (like blocking downfield) rarely gets discussed but matters in big games.

We have over-focused WR recruiting on kids who have the physical ability to free up and separate, which is table stakes for the nfl. Somehow figuring they’d learn to catch and take contact. The reverse is what we should do in college - over-focus on kids who can catch and take hits (and do the little things). They’ll avoid the drops and make some plays. Some will end up becoming good at separation and end up surprising positively.
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The Bill Belichick approach. Makes sense.

The only thing I will say, is that to get over the hump and beat Baga, Clampson, or O$U, you will need a couple of those guys who can just flat out go get the ball and essentially can't be covered. When Clemson has been able to win it all, it's been at least in part because they had one or two of those guys who could make a few of those ridiculous plays per game that were the difference between 3 and out and a touchdown drive.

To get to step 1, which is winning our division and playing in the ACCCG 7+ years out of 10, we've already had all the talent we need. If we can do that for 4 out of the next 5 years and not get pantsed in Charlotte or the bowl game, I am highly confident that the elite talent that we'd need to get over the top will come.

For now, our problem is and has been coaching, not players.
 
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DMoney said:
Separation, quickness and route-running is the name of the game in the NFL. You need to be able to beat press and then uncover quickly at the top of the route.

A lot of our worst misses are guys that fit this exact profile, which is so common in South Florida. Punt returners in particular are very good at beating press (equivalent to making the first tackler miss on a return), separating with quickness and catching in crowded spaces.

I'd boil down our WR woes to two main issues:

(1) Turning down too many talented small guys in favor of size. Some of these names are true sleepers, others we flat-out passed on: TY Hilton, Antonio Brown, Marquise Brown, Elijah Moore, TuTu Atwell, John Brown and Isaiah McKenzie. Those are all easily attainable pros who could have helped us. Zay Flowers at Boston College is a recent example.

(2) Losing battles. Amari Cooper, Jerry Jeudy and Calvin Ridley fit this category. We won the battle for Ahmmon Richards and then he got hurt. That's four first rounders right there.
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@DMoney Are we making the mistake again by seemingly not recruiting Palmetto's Mike Jackson?
 
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DTP said:
He ran a 4.00 20 yard shuttle as a high school senior. That would have been the second fastest shuttle at the 2020 NFL combine.
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Just saying what my eyes see. You don't see him leaving many guys on the turf due to making anyone miss, and we don't seem to get a lot of broken tackles out of him. Just not his game. He's got the quicks to find a seem and create some separation, but from what I've seen, he doesn't seem to have above average change of direction ability.
 
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