Who is your favorite Hurricanes Defensive Coordinator?

[Soul Cane]

Another thing about the Miami defense during those days was that Fsu copied everything UM did. Just check the evolution of Mickey Andrews defenses during that period. They went from an "okie" 5-2 to the 4-3 over around 1986 to 1989. Once Sonny Lubick hit the sidelines in '89, installing the fashion of the day the bear '46', it didn't take Andrews long to follow suit in '90. Lubick and company moved on to create the original wide-9 version on the collegiate level, while still playing cover-4 matchup behind it. Guess what Mikey and those chumps at FSu did? Yeah, you already know. They combined Lubick's wide-9 version with JJohnson's cover-4 matchup ('88) and turned it into a cover-1 look. And Mickey ran that stuff until the day he retired.

The same can be said offensively. After '89, Fsu went completely ace formation, shotgun. Where did that stuff originate from? Another UM innovator...Dennis "pick" Erickson. ****, even Lou Holtz ran trip formations at ND after facing the pinkster.

Man, once upon a time UM was the cutting edge of defensive and offensive philosophy on the collegiate level. No more. We're playing catch up.

Yeah, and on the other side of the ball, you had Gary Stevens( one of the guys who was ahead of the curve in terms of the passing game in the 80's) and then ERRickson. But you make an interesting point, in the age of the spread, UM is still a bit reluctant to adapt it's ways

Both Stevens and Schnelly were massive innovators in college football. The only other team other tha Miami that was using a proset offense and a sophisticated passing attack 30 years ago was BYU.

 

[bomba]

Epic work in this thread.

 

[Gables Cane]

I love the way this thread evolved from initially talking about our favorite defensive coordinators to innovators.

I agree with Dynasty, Lu and others who long for new, creative thinkers. Schnelly, Jimmy, and Erickson were all innovators. What else do they have in common?

National Championships.

Between them, they lead Miami to 4 of its 5 National Championships. Coker won the other MNC but he was notan innovator (unless of course you consider the Coker-T innovative). Coker won his ring because Butch Davis amassed arguably the greatest amount of NFL talent on a collegiate roster in the history of the game.

As much as I hate Urban, he too is an innovator and won a couple of National Championships. I'm a fan of the Pirate because he's truly an innovator and potentially can change the game (although his personality and "baggage" prevent him from reaching his full potential).

Innovation is a common denominator in our past success. It is beyond dispute. I'd sure love to see it again on either side of the football. It's one of the reasons I cringe when fans say they want to "return to the old days" or play "like we used to play." I want something new and innovative that will produce the same results we enjoyed in the old days. Big difference.

Go 'Canes!

 

[rkhill71]

Shannon

 

[LuCane]

I love the way this thread evolved from initially talking about our favorite defensive coordinators to innovators.

I agree with Dynasty, Lu and others who long for new, creative thinkers. Schnelly, Jimmy, and Erickson were all innovators. What else do they have in common?

National Championships.

Between them, they lead Miami to 4 of its 5 National Championships. Coker won the other MNC but he was notan innovator (unless of course you consider the Coker-T innovative). Coker won his ring because Butch Davis amassed arguably the greatest amount of NFL talent on a collegiate roster in the history of the game.

As much as I hate Urban, he too is an innovator and won a couple of National Championships. I'm a fan of the Pirate because he's truly an innovator and potentially can change the game (although his personality and "baggage" prevent him from reaching his full potential).

Innovation is a common denominator in our past success. It is beyond dispute. I'd sure love to see it again on either side of the football. It's one of the reasons I cringe when fans say they want to "return to the old days" or play "like we used to play." I want something new and innovative that will produce the same results we enjoyed in the old days. Big difference.

Go 'Canes!

Great stuff in there. Unfortunately, I agree re: Meyer. I still think he's going to go on a run up there. The situation sets itself up nicely for him.

The thing about "playing like we used to" and "return to the old days" is that it requires a serious step back. What I mean is we have to zoom out and not focus on "playing like we used to" on offense or "return to the old days" of defense, but rather focus on the mentality and approach we once instilled, recruited and bred here. Golden says all the right things and there have been glimpses of light, but I still cannot reconcile his approach defensively with the mentality we need. I simply hope it's a matter of him playing the current cards he was dealt. However, that defensive style was the same at Temple, and therefore I remain in a wait-and-see stance.

From a recruiting standpoint, I do like his approach, though. He has gone back to recruiting hunger. It's not about "putting a fence around South Florida" necessarily. It's about putting a fence around the truly hungry players from South Florida. Those are the guys that were so desperate to make a name for themselves and advance their lives, that they were willing and often did practically anything to achieve it.

 

[skyman]

Jimmy Johnson implemented the now famous Miami 40 slide/over defense. The scheme was based upon the fixing everything towards the sidelines, known commonly as "wrong arm technique or bounce technique." The defensive line main purpose was to work hard for penetration on the snap and get up field. This allowed the linebackers to scrap over the top and chase down everything laterally. It also allowed the secondary to play the cut back lanes. Under Johnson Miami primarily played cover 2 zone. Cover 2 was Miami's bread and butter coverage until around 1987. Johnson implemented more quarter coverage around that timeframe, and it became the secret coverage of the Miami defense. Johnson was never a biltz guy. He preferred keeping everything in front of the front seven. In fact I can only recall one game where Miami broke from its normal cover 2 and 4 coverages. Against the noles in '88, Johnson turned the dogs loose, and that formulated the blueprint for the Sonny Lubick style of Miami defense to come.

Dy, I remember after the game Bobby Bowden flat out said,"Jimmy Johnson is a defensive genuis."It was literally the only time that FSU ever got throttled like that

BTW, Jimmy's book, he devotes a good time about how he developed his style of one-gap pressure and how it was so against the grain at that time of read-and-react fronts. Tom Olividatti was no fan, lol

Bobby Bowden wasn't prepared for what Johnson threw at him that night in the Orange Bowl. As mentioned, Johnson was a numbers guys, in that, he kept everything in front of the back seven ( I mistyped earlier when I said front seven). I meant back seven. Johnson rolled that cover-2 (zone) look into a 4-across match up man coverage and sent six defenders. It was pure heat at its finest. Fsu had no answer. Indeed, Johnson was a defensive genuis.

There have been three defensive coaches at Miami who brought something significant to the table. Johnson being the first with the traditional 40 slide/over front. The second was Sonny Lubick. Sonny brought pure "juice" to an already effective defensive philosophy. I'm telling you this guy was a defensive back dream. His philosophy was different than Johnson in that he believed in creating single blocking match ups upfront. If the interior defensive linemen were getting handle with double teams, Lubick would not hesitate in sending linebackers to create one on one match ups. And, that became the staple of the Miami defense under Lubick and Tubberville. Running wider splits upfront and getting off the ball. Let me put it this way, when you're playing with basically four defensive ends ( Patrick, Miller, Hamlet, Medearis) you've got to be quick and fast to be effective. The backers of Armstead, Barrow and Smith provided the necessary juice for the upfront troops to be disruptive as ****. I've never seen a more active defensive front seven than the ones Lubick and Tubberville ran while at UM. As a matter of fact, the backers under Lubick and Tubberville had more responsibly than any other group of linebackes in UM history, particularliy the trio of Armstead, Barrow and Smith. That group brought absolute thunder and genetrated instant heat to an upfield, penetarating defensive front.

The third was BDavis. He and CPagno (?) implemented something Miami had never ran before, the 4-4 defensive scheme. They were more what I would call coverage innovators than front guys. The front seven was like JJohnson, but the secondary is where BDavis made his mark. The now famous (single) inverted cover-2. Davis would bring down ABlades into the box as the eighth defender and rotate the boundary corner, MRumph, as the second two deep defender. He would run this out of a two deep look and 1/4, 1/4, 1/2 look. It was something sweet when ABlades would actually make the takle instead of trying to blow someone up. Also, under Davis the Will linebacker was the freaking man, everything was geared for hi to be free to run and smash. It was a break from JJ's mike backers to be man. Davis' front seven play was not as aggressive as JJ's because the DL actually played more gap controlled assignments. This is something JJ and Davis did during their Dallas Cowboy days

Here's the question about our current defensive staff, where is the innovation? During our championship years, we were a step ahead of our competition. I don't see it with this current staff, even if we have outstanding players at evey position.

This has been my question for 10 years. I don't think it's an issue of just the coaches. I think it's an issue of the administration. You can't simply ask coaches to "just innovate." You have to hire innovators. At the very least, you have to encourage and support the head coach to surround himself with technical innovators even if he is not necessarily one himself. This is no different than running a business, and the reality is that our Chairman of the Board (Shalala) and our President (Athletic Director) have unfortunately failed in this facet for upward of a decade.

People will respond with "well, money" and "well, we should absolutely do the spread." That's not the point. Innovation and technical competitive edges can be had any number of ways. Some of the most interesting coaching and innovation often comes out of the MAC and similar conferences. Even lower levels of football. In college basketball, the top coaches have even gone so far as to try to learn from HS guys. Maybe you don't pluck those guys to be head coaches, but you hire head coaches from Temple-like schools, but with football trees that go down to the roots of innovation. What propelled Miami to become "Miami" was a commitment to a mentality that required having an "edge." We lost that when Butch left and we settled.

Agree with everything being said, but not every successful program has innovators. It sure as **** would be nice to have some innovative coordinators and coaches, but it is not a requirement to be dominant IMO. There is nothing innovative about LSU and Alabama. We as cane fans just have to hope that Golden and staff have an eye for talent and more importantly, could develop talent. With that, we have a chance to become dominant again due to the talent available in this region.

I also believe of all our coaches, Fisch has the most potential to bring something new to the game and be innovative with schemes and playcalls. I like what I've seen from him so far, but that's just me.

The problem when people use schools like LSU and Alabama is they are acknowledging one thing when not taking into account the other, RESOURCES. both those schools have it and they have it in spades. Thats why when you look at Lu's reply I think he uses the word "edge" on purpose. When you are at a disadvantage on one end you have to try to make it up somewhere else. Not many schools can compete in a arms race with the likes of LSU or bama.


to touch on what Dynasty and Lu talked about, I cringed when we were on our last coaching search we basically married ourselves to a "prostyle" offense because it prepares the kids for the NFL... Really? Have we become so blinded by the cool sounding name of "NFLU" that we are more concerned with that then actually winning National Championships, Turn on the draft the last couple years and you will find players drafted from Spread schools across the country, if you are talented the NFL will draft you no matter what system you played in. We went from being the young kid on the block of college football to now holding on to this dream where administration touts us as a prostyle school over anything else.

Meanwhile every high school in our back yard is spreading it out. Heck speaking of High school coaches like Malzahn, Chad Morris, Art Briles all come from high school ranks and have done well for themselves by being innovative. And all have had players drafted. I wonder if Cam or Griffin were hurt by playing in a "high school" offense, or if teams are going to shy away from Sammy Watkins. Of course not. If and I hope this is not the case, but IF we are looking for a coach in the near future I hope we dont eliminate half the field at the college level by marrying ourselves to one style of play (which is also evolving as they incorporate more spread into their style of play also)

 

[RaiseCane]

I love the way this thread evolved from initially talking about our favorite defensive coordinators to innovators.

I agree with Dynasty, Lu and others who long for new, creative thinkers. Schnelly, Jimmy, and Erickson were all innovators. What else do they have in common?

National Championships.

Between them, they lead Miami to 4 of its 5 National Championships. Coker won the other MNC but he was notan innovator (unless of course you consider the Coker-T innovative). Coker won his ring because Butch Davis amassed arguably the greatest amount of NFL talent on a collegiate roster in the history of the game.

As much as I hate Urban, he too is an innovator and won a couple of National Championships. I'm a fan of the Pirate because he's truly an innovator and potentially can change the game (although his personality and "baggage" prevent him from reaching his full potential).

Innovation is a common denominator in our past success. It is beyond dispute. I'd sure love to see it again on either side of the football. It's one of the reasons I cringe when fans say they want to "return to the old days" or play "like we used to play." I want something new and innovative that will produce the same results we enjoyed in the old days. Big difference.

Go 'Canes!

Great stuff in there. Unfortunately, I agree re: Meyer. I still think he's going to go on a run up there. The situation sets itself up nicely for him.

The thing about "playing like we used to" and "return to the old days" is that it requires a serious step back. What I mean is we have to zoom out and not focus on "playing like we used to" on offense or "return to the old days" of defense, but rather focus on the mentality and approach we once instilled, recruited and bred here. Golden says all the right things and there have been glimpses of light, but I still cannot reconcile his approach defensively with the mentality we need. I simply hope it's a matter of him playing the current cards he was dealt. However, that defensive style was the same at Temple, and therefore I remain in a wait-and-see stance.

From a recruiting standpoint, I do like his approach, though. He has gone back to recruiting hunger. It's not about "putting a fence around South Florida" necessarily. It's about putting a fence around the truly hungry players from South Florida. Those are the guys that were so desperate to make a name for themselves and advance their lives, that they were willing and often did practically anything to achieve it.

Lu,

Maybe I'm not remembering correctly, but I thought that you, along with many on grassy and this board, were excited about what Golden and Coach D did defensively at Temple. I remember Golden talking about going multiple on defense, showing all different types of look, etc. I thought that Coach D was known as a DC with an aggressive scheme. Am I incorrect about that? I thought that Temple's defense was a pretty good unit the last few years, which is why so many people were optimistic about Coach D.

To me, I don't understand why we haven't recently been able to harness the athleticism on our roster on the defensive side of the ball. This year, we're obviously in a tough spot with a DL that includes a bunch of guys who certainly wouldn't be counted on by even a good, not great defense. However, it seems like we still should try and attack a bit more, or at least should have tried to do so more last year.

It also seems like it's been ages since we've had either a dominant pass rusher or dominant DT. The last passrusher I can think of is Jerome McDougal. The trend/innovation in both college and the NFL seems to be great DE/OLB pass rushers, but we are certainly behind the times there. The recent SEC national champs have all had scary DLs, and I think until our DL play improves, we'll continue to be mediocre on D. Also, since big Vince, our DT play has been solid but unspectacular. If we're able to either recruit or develop our DL into an impactful unit, I think our DC can be more innovative.

 

[LuCane]

I love the way this thread evolved from initially talking about our favorite defensive coordinators to innovators.

I agree with Dynasty, Lu and others who long for new, creative thinkers. Schnelly, Jimmy, and Erickson were all innovators. What else do they have in common?

National Championships.

Between them, they lead Miami to 4 of its 5 National Championships. Coker won the other MNC but he was notan innovator (unless of course you consider the Coker-T innovative). Coker won his ring because Butch Davis amassed arguably the greatest amount of NFL talent on a collegiate roster in the history of the game.

As much as I hate Urban, he too is an innovator and won a couple of National Championships. I'm a fan of the Pirate because he's truly an innovator and potentially can change the game (although his personality and "baggage" prevent him from reaching his full potential).

Innovation is a common denominator in our past success. It is beyond dispute. I'd sure love to see it again on either side of the football. It's one of the reasons I cringe when fans say they want to "return to the old days" or play "like we used to play." I want something new and innovative that will produce the same results we enjoyed in the old days. Big difference.

Go 'Canes!

Great stuff in there. Unfortunately, I agree re: Meyer. I still think he's going to go on a run up there. The situation sets itself up nicely for him.

The thing about "playing like we used to" and "return to the old days" is that it requires a serious step back. What I mean is we have to zoom out and not focus on "playing like we used to" on offense or "return to the old days" of defense, but rather focus on the mentality and approach we once instilled, recruited and bred here. Golden says all the right things and there have been glimpses of light, but I still cannot reconcile his approach defensively with the mentality we need. I simply hope it's a matter of him playing the current cards he was dealt. However, that defensive style was the same at Temple, and therefore I remain in a wait-and-see stance.

From a recruiting standpoint, I do like his approach, though. He has gone back to recruiting hunger. It's not about "putting a fence around South Florida" necessarily. It's about putting a fence around the truly hungry players from South Florida. Those are the guys that were so desperate to make a name for themselves and advance their lives, that they were willing and often did practically anything to achieve it.

Lu,

Maybe I'm not remembering correctly, but I thought that you, along with many on grassy and this board, were excited about what Golden and Coach D did defensively at Temple. I remember Golden talking about going multiple on defense, showing all different types of look, etc. I thought that Coach D was known as a DC with an aggressive scheme. Am I incorrect about that? I thought that Temple's defense was a pretty good unit the last few years, which is why so many people were optimistic about Coach D.

To me, I don't understand why we haven't recently been able to harness the athleticism on our roster on the defensive side of the ball. This year, we're obviously in a tough spot with a DL that includes a bunch of guys who certainly wouldn't be counted on by even a good, not great defense. However, it seems like we still should try and attack a bit more, or at least should have tried to do so more last year.

It also seems like it's been ages since we've had either a dominant pass rusher or dominant DT. The last passrusher I can think of is Jerome McDougal. The trend/innovation in both college and the NFL seems to be great DE/OLB pass rushers, but we are certainly behind the times there. The recent SEC national champs have all had scary DLs, and I think until our DL play improves, we'll continue to be mediocre on D. Also, since big Vince, our DT play has been solid but unspectacular. If we're able to either recruit or develop our DL into an impactful unit, I think our DC can be more innovative.

No, I didn't know a lot about Golden and Coach D from Temple. Larry probably knows more about them than most on this board. I saw some limited action, but I didn't really give an opinion because I just didn't have enough data. I liked what they SAID they were gonna do (much of what you referenced), but I'm not enamored with what I SEE them doing. Again, maybe they're handcuffed. I really don't know. I'm not in the meeting or strategy rooms. I can only go by what I see in the games, etc.

 

[AzureCane]

1. Sony Lubick
2. Dave Wannstedt
3. Tubberville
4. Tom Olivadotti/Shannon (tie)

well done, but im surprised that mcmakin and miller havent been mentioned more. greg wasnt here long, but his defenses were excellent and i think miller is often overlooked because of the situation we were in as a program when he came in.