'I cant understand for the life of me why anyone would continuously bring up Shannon, who yes, his teams fielded better defenses, BUT STILL DIDNT WIN ENOUGH plus was responsible for hiring and not controlling Hurtt who got us caught in the NCAA mess. How about the offense, that doesn't count as a HC responsibility? Aren't HC's measured by wins?
Then you have Mope City who cant agree. One thinks talent is bases on stars, another think talent is based on draft classes.
This is for you pancho, since you brought up Shannon, you've said in the past that "3-4 first rounders is pretty much the same as a couple of 3rd-5th rounders" so I would imagine you fall in the stars category for talent. You say Shannon took over a team that had less talent than the team Golden took over? How did you come to this conclusion? Did you compare the number of 4/5 stars in Shannon's first year compared to Golden's? If so, share those facts.
Niner, to this point in time, Golden has yet to have a season with more wins than one that Shannon had. Shannon didn't fail because of his defenses. Shannon failed because of his offenses. He couldn't get it together, and ultimately he had to go. By year 3 Shannon had 9 wins. By year 3 Golden has 9 wins. Shannon gets brought up, because as far as the team itself goes, he is the only close comparison we have had. Howard, Butch, Jimmy, Dennis, and Coker all came in under different circumstances as Golden and Shannon. Shannon came in with our program at a pretty big low point for Miami after the FIU brawl and the shooting incidents. He took over a team that had no depth and low talent. Golden got the cloud, which was bad, but its only real effect was in recruiting. Golden is a better recruiter than Shannon and so he has held it together.
As far as the team and circumstances go, meaning NCAA drama, scholarship reductions, bowl bans, Shannon is not the the closest. Shannon did have to deal with the aftermath of the brawl. That can only be described as mildly comparable. There was no uncertainty, which is what recruits and their parent were worried about. No worries of possibly not playing in a bowl, which in todays world is important to the kids. Though Butch had it worse (waaay more scholarships reduced, he also inherited the better team. We have had this discussion before, not necessary to rehash.
Now lets talk about revisionist history since that seems to be some of you supporters favorite terms. You all want to talk about Shannon got no results and Golden is "trending up", but your revisionism forgets that going into year 4 under Shannon, we were a projected top 10 team and things were "trending up" after a 9 win season. Instead JH thought he was Stemo trying to throw bombs every other play, but he didn't have the arm for it and the coaching staff didn't take the necessary actions to fix it. Immediately after one season, Shannon went from trending up to fired.
Shannon was trendingup after his 3rd year, more wins. The results of the 4th year + the knowledge of what happened with Shapiro led to his firing, Remember, it was known the NCAA was investigating waaaay before it was announced.
Lastly niner, I wasn't trying to say that 3-4 first rounders are the same as 3-4 3rd - 5th rounders. The point is 3 first rounders does not make a team of 22 starters and however many backups. The point is 3-4 3rd-4th rounders on a college football team is about as effective as 3 first rounders on a team of 22 starters and however many backups. In that year I was comparing those 3 first rounders, how many other guys even got drafted? Yea keep leaving those facts out. If I have the best player in college football (not at the qb position), but the rest of the team would not crack the top 20 at their position, do you think I have a good team? It's ok though, I'm sure that it went over your head.
I highlighted the 4 first rounders to illustrate that the quality was far superior. ONLY 4 first rounders does not make the team, but 12 draftees, with majority being in the top 5 rounds does matter. Having a 3 time All American LB names Ray Lewis does help.
As far as talent, stars are a matter of potential. It's the coaches job to develop that potential. The draft is a matter of how good that coach did developing that talent (with exception of a few players like maybe Clowney). Some guys just never meet potential regardless of the coach. I came to that conclusion of talent by looking at the roster. Not looking at stars. That team was pretty bad. We had about 10 guys that were worth much and most of them were freshman.
Stars are a matter of potential, I agree. So again, how does one come to the conclusion that Shannon had less talent? You looked at the players on the roster and decided now? 4,5,6 years later? If that is the case, werent the majority of our best players last year freshmen and sophomores? Even more so in 2012?
Kenny Philips, Tavares Gooden, and Calais Campbell were the talent on this team.
After that we had Moncur (reaching for talent), Sam Shields (misused), Cooper(fr), Hankerson (fr.), Bailey (fr.), Franklin (fr.), Fox(So), Mccarthy (So), Ojomo(fr - reaching here for talent).
From that team, these are the best guys to come out of it and most of them were freshman. 3 pretty good players and a bunch of freshman. Most of the guys we had, especially the lbs were crap (Mcarthy was not starting yet since Cook and Sharpe were starting I believe and Gooden was gone after this). We had a bunch of bust WRs. We had 2 bust QBs in Wright and Freeman. We had mediocre to below avg DBs (except Phillips). Our OL had some talent but they were young. Cooper was our only semi decent rb. We had no depth!!!!!!!!!!!! Our RB, WR, and DB depth then was worse than it was when Al took over.
http://www.cfbstats.com/2007/team/415/roster.html
Golden got left with
Travis Benjamin, Henderson (had talent, poor WE), Hurns, Mike James, Linder, Lamar Miller, Sean Spence, Streeter, Olivier Vernon, Brandon Washington, Forston and Ojomo (reach, but I counted it for Shannon and he was a freshman who did not play, Golden got him as a Jr and he was still decent for us). These are all of the non Freshman guys.
Then you add the Freshman Chick, Dorsett, and Perryman.
I did not add any of the guys who got booted from the team like Gionni Paul, Eddie Johnson or Ray Ray. Also did not add guys like Jojo, Mcdermott, or Mcgee who were contributors for us, but weren't anything special. So please continue to tell me about how much better Shannon's team was, because a couple guy from that team got drafted in the first round.
http://www.cfbstats.com/2011/team/415/roster.html
So of the 12 guys you chose for Shannon, 9 played made it to the next level and contribute, 3 have not done anything at the next level as of today. Of the 15 you chose for Golden, 4 made it to the next level and contribute, the rest have not done anything as of today. So how exactly is that Shannon having less talent? Haven't you just illustrated Shannon had more and had the same results through 3 years?
Please provide evidence that the shapiro situation is what led to Shannon getting fired. In case you've forgotten, Shannon was found to be the only coach trying to keep players away from shapiro. Shannon was Shalala's model employee with how he cleaned up the image considering how things looked when he took over. Please stop speculating. As far as the winning situation, no ****. We all know year 4 was a disaster and led to his getting fired. Don't act like you proved me wrong on something I didn't already say. The point of what I wrote is that just as you guys are hyping up Golden going into year 4 after a 9 win season against that soft schedule is no different than Shannon getting hype going into year 4 after a 9 win season.
You say 4 first rounders and 12 draftees. Let me help you detail this, because you are bringing in an argument from a completely different discussion without context of the discussion.The context was about Butch's sanctions being worse than what Al has faced in the cloud and how much talent was left to Butch and why he deserved 6 years compared to AL since Butch "trended down" in year 3. The point about the picks I made is that Al also received talent. There were no first rounders, but there was talent of draft picks, half of which went also in the first 5 rounds. The first year Butch took over 1995 (1996 draft), record 8-3 (bowl ban). 2 total draft picks. 1st round ray lewis and 6th round derrick harris. Year 2 (this is the best one), 9-3. 8 picks (3 -first round, 1 -4th, 2 -5th, 1 -6th, 1 -7th). Now here is the important part, so pay attention. All of those upperclassmen left behind by Dennis are gone now. Butch with 30 scholarship reduction of sanctions is not able to fill the needs of the team so regardless of what is left by Dennis there isn't a whole team of talent coming in from those first couple years so we have no depth. Season 3, 5-6 record. only 2 draft picks (1 first, and 1 third), the remaining holdovers from Dennis. Season 4, back to 9-3.
Al received 11 draft picks from Randy's squad. 7 of which were taken in the first 5 rounds. The point I made about them being the same was that Al received talent. Yes 3rd and 4th round players are not first rounders, but lets not act like 3rd and 4th rounders are that much worse than first rounders. Tajh Boyd and Zach Mettenberger went in the 5th and 6th round yet their qb ratings last year were the same or better than Teddy's who went in the first. The talent Al got was not as much as what Butch got and 5 of Butch's 12 were first rounders, but he also didn't face sanctions nearly on the same level as what Butch faced. It took Butch 6 years, because right in the middle is where the sanctions hit hardest, because he could not recruit players. Al faced the cloud. That was the only restriction he had. Yes it was rough and we lost recruits. Considering the 31 scholarship reductions Butch faced, I'm impressed that he kept us at 9 wins or better in all years except 2 (year 1 was 8-3 due to bowl ban).
As far as the talent Randy got vs what Al got. Look at the **** roster, I even posted the links for you. Not looking at stars, most of the guys Randy got were busts or just weren't that good. The ones who were good were freshman or sophomores and most of them were Randy's recruits since he took over recruiting right after Coker got fired the day after the season ended which means that they weren't left by Coker either. Guys like Bailey and Franklin who didn't commit until after Coker was fired.
So of the 12 guys I chose for Shannon, many were not holdovers from Coker. Of those 12 guys Shannon received vs the 15 Golden received, it doesn't matter what they did at the next level, because we are talking about what they did at the college level. You're asking about what they did 4,5,6 years later, but I'm talking about what they did while they were players in college. What they did at the next level has no relevance on what they did while at Miami. Sam Shields being a Super Bowl MVP did not help us get any wins at Miami. I shouldn't have even included Sam Shields, because he was not good while he was here (misused), but I figured someone would try to point him out. Players can still be considered good players without being contributors at the next level. Example is Streeter. He's nothing in the pros, but you're just being ridiculous if you think he wasn't looking like a major contributor here the one year he started here. Washington, Ojomo, and Forston were good here (but likely won't do anything at the next level). Again I never claimed Golden got some superstar team, but I illustrated how Shannon did not get handed some Porsche like some of you seem to think he did.
I think the biggest thing you point out is the investigation was rumored or mentioned just about Shannon's whole last year.
So I dare anyone to tell me how golden didn't know. He has been lying about that from day one and most people can't even remember when we the fans found it. So your going to tell me in the small coaching fraternity that golden didn't know or do his homework before accepting a job. Either way it screams liar or incompetent in my eyes.
That is why he doesn't get a pass for the cloud.
