NBA The GOAT Case For Lebron: Playoff Performances

[Cribby]

LOL, I had the same exact thought while watching - "jeez, does nobody play defense anymore?" I then looked up NBA scoring averages - 40 guys score 20ppg+ now and 30 years ago, that number was half.

And yeah, the guys these days have a lot of skill, but they don't play defense and there is no defensive team defense (sliding - what's that?). Once you penetrate the middle, it's easy buckets because everyone including the big guys are playing the wings so there's nobody inside.




Hey, LBJ had a tough matchup those finals against tough defensive matchups like

checks notes

....JJ Barea and Shawn Marion.

There’s not many veterans and the league is full of young , dumb players who don’t understand help defense , team defense or awareness of the player you’re guarding strengths . They let them constantly get to their spot .

I’m amazed at the guys who just walk right into a deep three with no contest lol. It’s pickup ball with friends. Then if you bump a player or make contact they drop to the ground like they’ve been shot , then the refs must spend ten minutes watching the replay to see if it’s a flagrant 1-10 lol. Then they wonder why their numbers are plummeting. It’s a bad product.

 

[Return of the U]

I just watched Lilliards 71 point performance highlights and I just laugh at the lack of defensive awareness or just not trying / caring lol. This era is so bad , no hand check , no physicality and no effort on the d end of the court. It’s a mixture of a pickup game at the Y mixed with Fiba basketball circa 1990. Btw JJ Barea guarding LBJ as the series was slipping away in 2011 and him doing nothing is still one of the biggest face plants in history. Dirk with a bunch of role players and washed vets beat the 7 time champs Heat lol.

That Mavs series really showed a lot about LeBron, and not in a good way.

Game 4, Heat up 2-1 in the series and LBJ scores 8 points and anyone that watched that game could see how meh he played. Wade and Bosh had 32 and 24.

That is in his prime with an all time great in Wade and a **** good player in Bosh.

That's against Dirk and role players, not a vaunted defense, but people want to say the NBA has a harder path today...

 

[E1k]

That Mavs series really showed a lot about LeBron, and not in a good way.

Game 4, Heat up 2-1 in the series and LBJ scores 8 points and anyone that watched that game could see how meh he played. Wade and Bosh had 32 and 24.

That is in his prime with an all time great in Wade and a **** good player in Bosh.

That's against Dirk and role players, not a vaunted defense, but people want to say the NBA has a harder path today...

I will never forgive lebron for that series…NEVER

But to define that series as him as player is just so bull**** lmao, the man has had a ***** million great series before and after that. Its a clear outlier, he ***** choked but the mf went to 8 straight finals afterwards some with a couple ***** mediocre teams with countless great performances and clutch moments.

This debate always ends with people discrediting an era while propping up another era lol, its a never ending thing because people cant be objective and dont really know **** about basketball and how it has evolved

 

[AUcane]

That Mavs series really showed a lot about LeBron, and not in a good way.

Game 4, Heat up 2-1 in the series and LBJ scores 8 points and anyone that watched that game could see how meh he played. Wade and Bosh had 32 and 24.

That is in his prime with an all time great in Wade and a **** good player in Bosh.

That's against Dirk and role players, not a vaunted defense, but people want to say the NBA has a harder path today...

I'm still steamed about that series. We had a huge lead in game 2 and were really outmatching them, then our big 3 started celebrating, chest bumping and then Dallas made that comeback and completely changed the series. jmo

 

[Cribby]

To be fair u watched him do it against one of the worst teams in the league lol there’s good defense being played in todays game but it’s just completely different than back then because the players are skilled in a different way. The spacing makes it harder for u to guard a guy one on one so teams have to have better schemes to stop these guys. Dame is pulling from the logo like it’s a regular shot, that 80s “physicality” sounds good but you aren’t stopping these guys today like that. It’s just a different game

I watch a lot of condensed games or big individual game HL’s and it’s normally the same bs.

Yes the Rockets suck, yes the game is played more in space, yes the players are skilled in different ways but the effort on defense is pathetic. Defense will always be about effort. These guys save their energy for offense while taking off on defense. It’s obvious to anyone with eyes.

I disagree about physicality , bringing back the hand check would calm a lot of this stuff down. The offense is able to push off , shove and do **** near what they want to the defender and when the defender falls from the shove you hear “ oh oh oh , he put him on skates “ lol. But if the defender sneezes on the ball handler off to the review center. It’s garbage imo and the ratings show it. It’s a three point contest and whoever hits the threes wins. Minus maybe Denver.

 

[E1k]

I watch a lot of condensed games or big individual game HL’s and it’s normally the same bs.

Yes the Rockets suck, yes the game is played more in space, yes the players are skilled in different ways but the effort on defense is pathetic. Defense will always be about effort. These guys save their energy for offense while taking off on defense. It’s obvious to anyone with eyes.

I disagree about physicality , bringing back the hand check would calm a lot of this stuff down. The offense is able to push off , shove and do **** near what they want to the defender and when the defender falls from the shove you hear “ oh oh oh , he put him on skates “ lol. But if the defender sneezes on the ball handler off to the review center. It’s garbage imo and the ratings show it. It’s a three point contest and whoever hits the threes wins. Minus maybe Denver.

You should watch more games bro lol, not saying you’re wrong for that opinion but making assumptions off highlights is like someone born in 2005 watching the greats from past eras and saying they’re aren’t that good or that era is bad

Its not physical but that is overstated in other eras, both eras had bull**** soft calls. One was played majority below the free throw line and down so of course there’s more natural physicality because everyone is ***** packed together lol.

And hand checking is basically a ***** way to defend with less skill, if u cant stay in front of your man without it how good of a defender are you? If you have to foul hard because u cant stop someone how good at basketball are you?

 

[Cribby]

You should watch more games bro lol, not saying you’re wrong for that opinion but making assumptions off highlights is like someone born in 2005 watching the greats from past eras and saying they’re aren’t that good or that era is bad

Its not physical but that is overstated in other eras, both eras had bull**** soft calls. One was played majority below the free throw line and down so of course there’s more natural physicality because everyone is ***** packed together lol.

And hand checking is basically a ***** way to defend with less skill, if u cant stay in front of your man without it how good of a defender are you? If you have to foul hard because u cant stop someone how good at basketball are you?

It’s a ***** way to defend as the offensive players are doing jujitsu on the defender? lol.

I‘ll watch one game a week , usually on Sunday and it’s like I’m watching a replay from the last week. Just different jerseys. The effort is terrible on defense and for you to act like it’s just how amazing the skill is or how the different the game is kinda crazy . I hear this from the younger nba fans then I pull up a reels of video of guys just walking right into a three as the defender watches lol, then gets a hand up after it’s too late. Then if it’s a screen they’ll go under and let the same guy get another wide open shot. Why not trap off the screen if the guy has 60 points and isn’t passing ? All these analytics and no common sense.

I’ve played and watched bball for **** near 40 years, I know what no effort is. Todays NBA‘s D is like watching five prime Carmelo Anthony’s on the court every night. If you hustle , get up in their space or heavens forbid try you’re dirty or they get in their feelings lol.

 

[E1k]

It’s a ***** way to defend as the offensive players are doing jujitsu on the defender? lol.

I‘ll watch one game a week , usually on Sunday and it’s like I’m watching a replay from the last week. Just different jerseys. The effort is terrible on defense and for you to act like it’s just how amazing the skill is or how the different the game is kinda crazy . I hear this from the younger nba fans then I pull up a reels of video of guys just walking right into a three as the defender watches lol, then gets a hand up after it’s too late. Then if it’s a screen they’ll go under and let the same guy get another wide open shot. Why not trap off the screen if the guy has 60 points and isn’t passing ? All these analytics and no common sense.

I’ve played and watched bball for **** near 40 years, I know what no effort is. Todays NBA‘s D is like watching five prime Carmelo Anthony’s on the court every night. If you hustle , get up in their space or heavens forbid try you’re dirty or they get in their feelings lol.

I didn’t say the defensive effort wasn’t pathetic, it absolutely is with some teams but you are admitting to not watching many games and forming an entire opinion on something you are not knowledgeable on lol thats my point.

There are plenty of teams who play with great effort on defense, there are plenty who dont especially this year. There are plenty of teams who trap and switch up schemes vs the dynamic guards there are some teams who live and die by their schemes, but if u dont watch enough how would u know? How would u know if it even works against the players if u aren’t watching enough

 

[COCane4Life]

It’s just how amazing the skill is now. It just looks like the defenders are watching guys shoot while not closing out lol

I went to a game two weeks ago and was in awe of the shot making ability these guys have. Not only that but the pace of the game is lightening fast and rule changes have catered to offense. Guys are shooting at a ridiculous clip and that’s across all 5 positions. How can you get a hand up when someone is pulling from 30 feet and making 35-40%? How can you help off your man when everyone can shoot and dribble? NBA defense in todays game is a nightmare.

I think it’s fair to say in the 90’s Reggie Miller was that guy from 3 then you had guys like Tim Hardaway. These guys shot 4-5 3’s a game. Reggie was a career 40% from 3 and Hardaway was 35%. Dog Nikola Jokic is shooting 39% from 3. Joel Embiid is about 35% from 3. Guards like Damian Lillard and Steph Curry average 10+ attempts from 3 and shot it around 40%.

There’s no defense you can run to stop some of these teams. The game is so different that it’s hard to compare what was because the athletes have evolved. Imagine shaq having to guard Jokic all game. A Center that’s a point guard. He’d be forced to play on the perimeter. He can’t help off or joker will have a field day. You can try to be physical all you want but the elite teams in the NBA can’t be stopped on a consistent basis. You try to slow them down and out score them.

Last point, why did the lakers suck earlier in the year? Very simple, unlike the elite teams they had guys that couldn’t shoot allowing the defense to help off guy’s ultimately shrinking the floor.

 

[Dre]

I didn’t say the defensive effort wasn’t pathetic, it absolutely is with some teams but you are admitting to not watching many games and forming an entire opinion on something you are not knowledgeable on lol thats my point.

There are plenty of teams who play with great effort on defense, there are plenty who dont especially this year. There are plenty of teams who trap and switch up schemes vs the dynamic guards there are some teams who live and die by their schemes, but if u dont watch enough how would u know? How would u know if it even works against the players if u aren’t watching enough

The general argument for 80s being the physical era is rooted in pulling up some youtube clips of guys fouling people hard as though the same compilation doesn't exist for today's game and when you foul people hard they don't go shoot 2 free throws.

I'm not a Bill Simmons defender but listening to him in the past discuss the defense of the 80s not being as people remember it made me watch full games from back then. It's hilarious how bad it was. The clippers and sac just had that ridiculous game a few nights ago to become the 2nd highest scoring game ever. The first was in 1983.

This doesnt' mean Lebron is better than MJ but when comparing eras the nostalgia tends to outweigh reality. Which is why JJ Reddick goes so hard to simply counterbalance the nonsense constantly stated by players from that era that, "Steph and Dame would never do that in our era...". Haha you got guys like Rasheed Wallace saying Lebron wouldn't be successful in his era... The delusion is wonderful

 

[Cribby]

I went to a game two weeks ago and was in awe of the shot making ability these guys have. Not only that but the pace of the game is lightening fast and rule changes have catered to offense. Guys are shooting at a ridiculous clip and that’s across all 5 positions. How can you get a hand up when someone is pulling from 30 feet and making 35-40%? How can you help off your man when everyone can shoot and dribble? NBA defense in todays game is a nightmare.

I think it’s fair to say in the 90’s Reggie Miller was that guy from 3 then you had guys like Tim Hardaway. These guys shot 4-5 3’s a game. Reggie was a career 40% from 3 and Hardaway was 35%. Dog Nikola Jokic is shooting 39% from 3. Joel Embiid is about 35% from 3. Guards like Damian Lillard and Steph Curry average 10+ attempts from 3 and shot it around 40%.

There’s no defense you can run to stop some of these teams. The game is so different that it’s hard to compare what was because the athletes have evolved. Imagine shaq having to guard Jokic all game. A Center that’s a point guard. He’d be forced to play on the perimeter. He can’t help off or joker will have a field day. You can try to be physical all you want but the elite teams in the NBA can’t be stopped on a consistent basis. You try to slow them down and out score them.

Last point, why did the lakers suck earlier in the year? Very simple, unlike the elite teams they had guys that couldn’t shoot allowing the defense to help off guy’s ultimately shrinking the floor.

Guys don’t play defense or attempt to block shots at the rim because they‘re concerned about seeing the replay non stop on HL clips. Yes the game is different in a bad way Imo but the effort on d is atrocious. That has nothing to do with guys shooting from thirty feet out or being 7 footers. It starts at low levels and goes all the way up to the league. Kids want to shoot and the sooner defense is over the better. Most of these guys don’t take pride in their D, even Kobe said this at the end of his career. They run from that challenge , they’re scared of facing their position matchup if he can score. They can also save their energy for offense.

I’ve seen so many games where guys get mad , throw the ball at the defender or want to slap fight because the defender has the gall to get in their face or actually try to get into their space. That’s now dirty.

We all get the game is different , back in the days guys didn’t practice threes unless the three point contest was close. You worked on mid range . Big guys worked on footwork and post moves. Now everyone stands on the three point line jacking threes all game. Watching 60 threes being shot with no defense will never be basketball to me. It’s a three point contest.

If you think this is just amazing skill we’ll disagree. It’s great skill mixed with awful rules and no effort on d. It’s all of it. Once again the TV ratings are the proof in the pudding. It’s a bad product.

 

[crossover22[]_[]]

The general argument for 80s being the physical era is rooted in pulling up some youtube clips of guys fouling people hard as though the same compilation doesn't exist for today's game and when you foul people hard they don't go shoot 2 free throws.

I'm not a Bill Simmons defender but listening to him in the past discuss the defense of the 80s not being as people remember it made me watch full games from back then. It's hilarious how bad it was. The clippers and sac just had that ridiculous game a few nights ago to become the 2nd highest scoring game ever. The first was in 1983.

This doesnt' mean Lebron is better than MJ but when comparing eras the nostalgia tends to outweigh reality. Which is why JJ Reddick goes so hard to simply counterbalance the nonsense constantly stated by players from that era that, "Steph and Dame would never do that in our era...". Haha you got guys like Rasheed Wallace saying Lebron wouldn't be successful in his era... The delusion is wonderful

Go watch a full game of the celtics and pistons or celtics and lakers.



Todays game is soft as baby****.

 

[Cribby]

The general argument for 80s being the physical era is rooted in pulling up some youtube clips of guys fouling people hard as though the same compilation doesn't exist for today's game and when you foul people hard they don't go shoot 2 free throws.

I'm not a Bill Simmons defender but listening to him in the past discuss the defense of the 80s not being as people remember it made me watch full games from back then. It's hilarious how bad it was. The clippers and sac just had that ridiculous game a few nights ago to become the 2nd highest scoring game ever. The first was in 1983.

This doesnt' mean Lebron is better than MJ but when comparing eras the nostalgia tends to outweigh reality. Which is why JJ Reddick goes so hard to simply counterbalance the nonsense constantly stated by players from that era that, "Steph and Dame would never do that in our era...". Haha you got guys like Rasheed Wallace saying Lebron wouldn't be successful in his era... The delusion is wonderful

The whole goat debate is stupid as **** but this generation is obsessed with discussing it while crapping on greats from previous decades. Redick being the biggest douche to do it. Making slick / smart *** comments about greats who’ve never mentioned his name.

Those greats paved the way and evolved the game to where it is. I don’t get the obsession of discrediting greats from other generations. But it’s a sign of the time and not just sports , it’s a societal deal.

Growing up I wanted to learn about Gale Sayers , Fran Tarkington , Jim Brown and I just appreciated their greatness when watching HL’s. I never thought “ these guys suck , they couldn’t cut it in this era“.

 

[COCane4Life]

Guys don’t play defense or attempt to block shots at the rim because they‘re concerned about seeing the replay non stop on HL clips. Yes the game is different in a bad way Imo but the effort on d is atrocious. That has nothing to do with guys shooting from thirty feet out or being 7 footers. It starts at low levels and goes all the way up to the league. Kids want to shoot and the sooner defense is over the better. Most of these guys don’t take pride in their D, even Kobe said this at the end of his career. They run from that challenge , they’re scared of facing their position matchup if he can score. They can also save their energy for offense.

I’ve seen so many games where guys get mad , throw the ball at the defender or want to slap fight because the defender has the gall to get in their face or actually try to get into their space. That’s now dirty.

We all get the game is different , back in the days guys didn’t practice threes unless the three point contest was close. You worked on mid range . Big guys worked on footwork and post moves. Now everyone stands on the three point line jacking threes all game. Watching 60 threes being shot with no defense will never be basketball to me. It’s a three point contest.

If you think this is just amazing skill we’ll disagree. It’s great skill mixed with awful rules and no effort on d. It’s all of it. Once again the TV ratings are the proof in the pudding. It’s a bad product.

That’s a bs statement. Guys play defense and people get their ish beat at the rim all the time.

Guys are making contested shots constantly. Defensive effort is not worse than it was before, playing defense is significantly harder than it was before. Defenders can’t reach, can’t use their hands to stay in front of defenders and have to guard guys 35 feet away from the basket on an island. It’s an impossible task. Name your favorite defender of all time and I guarantee they’re getting worked in todays game. Generalizing effort as the problem is just plain wrong.

If you think a big man that can only make a hook shot is amazing basketball we’ll never agree on anything. Basketball is becoming position-less because the big that could only shoot a hook shot or a 10 foot wide open mid range shot have been forced to adapt increasing their skill level. What kills me is when people bring up post footwork and ignore perimeter footwork as a skill lol

You see 40-60 3’s a game because it’s simple math. guys can make the shots at higher rate than ever before and 3 is greater than 2. Long mid-range jump shots were king in the 90’s but math shows it’s a terrible percentage shot. 3’s and layups are the most effective way to score the ball.

Cribby you’re living in the power I option world and running 4-3/5-2 defense. You can’t run a 5-2 against a spread offense. Come into 2023 and respect the greatness. We aren’t going backwards and guys are only getting better.

 

[88]

The whole goat debate is stupid as **** but this generation is obsessed with discussing it while crapping on greats from previous decades. Redick being the biggest douche to do it. Making slick / smart *** comments about greats who’ve never mentioned his name.

Those greats paved the way and evolved the game to where it is. I don’t get the obsession of discrediting greats from other generations. But it’s a sign of the time and not just sports , it’s a societal deal.

Growing up I wanted to learn about Gale Sayers , Fran Tarkington , Jim Brown and I just appreciated their greatness when watching HL’s. I never thought “ these guys suck , they couldn’t cut it in this era“.

Everyone starving for a hot take.

"These guy wouldn't be the best these days"

Yeah, no ****. It's called progress. Civilizations learn and builds off prior generations with innovation.

It should be looked at in a relative sense.

 

[Cribby]

That’s a bs statement. Guys play defense and people get their ish beat at the rim all the time.

Guys are making contested shots constantly. Defensive effort is not worse than it was before, playing defense is significantly harder than it was before. Defenders can’t reach, can’t use their hands to stay in front of defenders and have to guard guys 35 feet away from the basket on an island. It’s an impossible task. Name your favorite defender of all time and I guarantee they’re getting worked in todays game. Generalizing effort as the problem is just plain wrong.

If you think a big man that can only make a hook shot is amazing basketball we’ll never agree on anything. Basketball is becoming position-less because the big that could only shoot a hook shot or a 10 foot wide open mid range shot have been forced to adapt increasing their skill level. What kills me is when people bring up post footwork and ignore perimeter footwork as a skill lol

You see 40-60 3’s a game because it’s simple math. guys can make the shots at higher rate than ever before and 3 is greater than 2. Long mid-range jump shots were king in the 90’s but math shows it’s a terrible percentage shot. 3’s and layups are the most effective way to score the ball.

Cribby you’re living in the power I option world and running 4-3/5-2 defense. You can’t run a 5-2 against a spread offense. Come into 2023 and respect the greatness. We aren’t going backwards and guys are only getting better.

You got to love the ego of you young cats lol. It’s still five on five , just with more spacing and the floor being stretched. They just chose the analytical route of its better to take more threes versus two’s. Wow , this is some super intelligent stuff.

Yes players are more skilled , because they’re starting younger , they have more camps and no matter your size you work on your handles and shot. They also had 100 years of basketball to pull from. The game has evolved but that hasn’t been my argument. My argument is the defense as a whole and effort is atrocious. Just because you find random HL’s doesn’t mean my comment is bs or has been proven wrong. I’ve watched and played the game for close to 40 years. So I know effort and when somebody doesn’t care about defense. I guess Kobe saying the exact same thing was bs too? Lol. Yes there’s guys like Smart who play d but I’m speaking as a whole, not the exception.

Fact is watching guys run down court shooting 60 threes a game on repeat with no defense / effort is a turn off. As I’ve said there’s a reason the ratings continue to plunge the last five years. On top of the product being bad you have star players sitting for “ rest “ or “ load management “ ******** fans . It’s the entire product not just on court.

I still enjoy CBB because it still resembles basketball.

It takes a lot to shock me but me saying defense / effort is terrible in the NBA being a hot take might be the most shocking yet lol. I’ve had this conversation with younger and older fans. Maybe you could be a delusional super fan more than me being a boomer.

 

[Cribby]

Everyone starving for a hot take.

"These guy wouldn't be the best these days"

Yeah, no ****. It's called progress. Civilizations learn and builds off prior generations with innovation.

It should be looked at in a relative sense.

Exactly. It’s weird. This is just another reason I retired from hot take tv years ago. Theres no way to decide the the argument. It’s lazy and played out imo.

 

[crossover22[]_[]]

If you think they play defense in todays NBA then you need a extra thick padded helmet and a drool guard.

Id love to watch these fools be guarded by dennis Rodman or pippen.

 

[Cribby]

As I said “ no respect “

 

[crossover22[]_[]]

As I said “ no respect “

Bird would average 30 in todays game. JJ has always been a *****.