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Ranking Canes Past Coaches

Tad Footeball said:
Don't take this as not realizing how great they were but I feel like a lot of Canes fans either feel compelled or just assume that Howard was the greatest coach in the history of college football and that Jerome Brown is the greatest Cane that ever was or will be. Sometimes it just comes off as someone parroting what they think they should say.

If you throw out Howard building the program (and that's a HUGE thing to throw out) and just ask which coach I'd prefer to coach the same team- I take JJ over him to assemble a staff and actually coach that team. Howard's track record post UM isn't exactly stellar- ask anyone in Oklahoma.
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Really, 1 year is a fair assessment of someone's career?
 
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Miami82 said:
Tad Footeball said:
Don't take this as not realizing how great they were but I feel like a lot of Canes fans either feel compelled or just assume that Howard was the greatest coach in the history of college football and that Jerome Brown is the greatest Cane that ever was or will be. Sometimes it just comes off as someone parroting what they think they should say.

If you throw out Howard building the program (and that's a HUGE thing to throw out) and just ask which coach I'd prefer to coach the same team- I take JJ over him to assemble a staff and actually coach that team. Howard's track record post UM isn't exactly stellar- ask anyone in Oklahoma.
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Really, 1 year is a fair assessment of someone's career?
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No but he's also sub .500 in his decade at Lou-vul too. The guy is an ALL TIME program builder but I still take JJ once my program is established.
 
Tad Footeball said:
Miami82 said:
Tad Footeball said:
Don't take this as not realizing how great they were but I feel like a lot of Canes fans either feel compelled or just assume that Howard was the greatest coach in the history of college football and that Jerome Brown is the greatest Cane that ever was or will be. Sometimes it just comes off as someone parroting what they think they should say.

If you throw out Howard building the program (and that's a HUGE thing to throw out) and just ask which coach I'd prefer to coach the same team- I take JJ over him to assemble a staff and actually coach that team. Howard's track record post UM isn't exactly stellar- ask anyone in Oklahoma.
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Really, 1 year is a fair assessment of someone's career?
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No but he's also sub .500 in his decade at Lou-vul too. The guy is an ALL TIME program builder but I still take JJ once my program is established.
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I agree, I just wouldn't point to OU as anything but what it was.
 
niner2107 said:
My bad, you right, pretty much the same...

1996 draft
Derrick Harris 6th rd
Ray Lewis 1st rd

1997 draft
Yatil Green 1st rd
Tony Gaiter 6th rd
Kenard Lang 1st rd
Kenny Holmes 1st rd
Twan Russell 5th rd
Tremain Mack 4th rd
Marcus Wimberly 5th rd
Carlos Jones 7th rd

1998 draft
Jammi German 3rd rd
Duane Starks 1st rd
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**** this is just like the other thread where I make a statement based on some research to answer your question and you come back like a tool and point out something I specifically already mentioned. I specifically said yes there were some good players. I also said the team was better than what Al got. What I said is that it was not so much better as you are making it out to be. I also stated how many first rounders there were in my previous post so I didn't hide it.

Lets start with what you asked for. You asked specifically for the number of draft picks (10 total). I provided it to you. You asked for the year 96 and 97. I provided it to you with what rounds they were drafted. You did not ask for the number of first rounders, but I knew you'd ask so I provided that to (4 total between 96 and 97, the years you asked for).

So since you want to call out what I said was pretty much the same, let's remove the 5th round or later draft picks from 96 and 97. 5 out of 10 players (4- 1st, 1- 4th). Lets go ahead and add the 2 guys from 98 since you want to add that now. 6 out of 12 are now better than the 5th round. Out of Golden's first 2 classes 4 out of 8 were earlier than 5th round. None were first rounders, but early round picks are not scrubs and they were all underclassmen. Last time I checked 5 first rounders over a 3 year period does not mean your whole team was great. It just means you had 5 really good players over 3 years (not all of which started all of their years and if they did were likely not as good in their earliest years, you know, the years when Butch took over). The only early round pick in the first year butch was there was ray and he was a junior when he left. Meaning everyone else that was drafted early was likely a sophomore or younger when Butch took over (since they left early also). According to your standard 3 first round picks that were Sophomores the year Butch took over equals a great team. Apparently Sophomore's are not enough when it's Al though. Guess we'll see where our early entries go next year to determine if Al's team last year should have been great too (based on your standard of course).

One more thing since you want to talk about draft picks and what Butch got left. Butch had less draft picks his first year at Miami, but he had a better record. I guess by your standard, Al got left with more than Butch did.
 
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Miami82 said:
poncho0091 said:
niner2107 said:
poncho0091 said:
niner2107 said:
Yes, everyone here understands that 31 compared to 9 scholarship deductions is worse. What you need to also throw into the equation is the team Butch inherited was also FAR better than the team Golden inherited. Add to that the lack of recruiting done the last year under Shannon, and that 31 vs 9 gap closes significantly. Given that, it still took Butch until his 6th year to win 10 games, understandably so, building a team back up takes a little time.
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That 95 team was not that stacked. I'm not sure how it was far better that what Golden got. Better, but not that much better. There were some good players, but lets not act like the 95 team was anything great. Let's also not forget the team Golden inherited was actually pretty good, but it lacked depth. Streeter, Brandon Washington, Forston, Lamar Miller, Vernon were all part of this team. They were not world beaters, but they were all good players in college and only Vernon was suspended 6 games before you say they were all suspended so many games.

Secondly, Butch while under a bigger cloud, went 8-3, 9-3, 5-6, 9-3, 9-4, 11-1 (we should have went to the title game this year). In the process he actually beat good teams and many of the losses were to good teams. Year 1 lost to UCLA, FSU, and VT and beat a ranked Syracuse. Every year of Butch's time was as good or better as Golden's best year except year 1 (we played 1 less game so we could have gotten 9 if we played another) and 3. Also, with actual scholarship reductions (which there is nothing you can do to fix that scenario) as opposed to just negative recruiting (which Al persevered through in recruiting), Butch maintained a respectable record of 9 wins in all of the following years except 1 (you know, the years where the scholarship reductions would have a real effect). So yes, Butch took 6 years to reach 10 wins, but with 31 scholarship reductions, each year he still matched Al's best year with sanctions not even close to what Butch was facing.
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I see what the issue is. Your baseline is thinking the 95 and 96 teams were not all that. It's simple, you don't need to be ignorant or guess if they had good players or not. All you have to do is man up, count how many players were drafted in 96 and 97, which would be the players Dennis left, also count the eventual pro bowlers. Report back, let everyone know how many, exactly.

Or you can just come up with a lame excuse as to why you don't have to do anything, blah blah. If that's the case, save your effort, no need to hear them.

Which will it be?
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We had this before a couple weeks back where I did research and then you tried to put it on me later without doing any yourself and I called you out for it which must be why you're trying to pull it again. I didn't guess anything douche. I looked at the roster before I posted and I told you that the team had some good players. Having some drafted players don't make a team elite. I also said the team was better than what Al had. You are acting like this team was some kind of all time great team.

We had 10 drafted players in 1996 and 1997. 2 in 1996 (1st rd and 6th rd), 8 in 1997 (3- 1st rd, 1- 4th, 2- 5th, 1-6th, and 1- 7th). So half of that 10 went 5th round or later. I guess that makes us elite.

By your standard, Al's team was not much worse (as I said). The first 2 classes after Al got here had 8 picks (6 in 2012, 2 in 2013). 2012 (2 -3rd, 2- 4th, 2- 6th). 2013 (1- 5ht and 1- 6th). Look at that, half the players also went 5th round or later. Only 2 less total draft picks. The only real difference is there were some 1st rounders for Butch.

Also by your standard. USC for example should have been beyond elite in 2010 and 2011. They had 16 draft picks, but only went 9-4 and 8-5.

See I had no problem with keeping this civil. I didn't have to do more research last time because I already did the research. You avoided the questions and responses I proposed to you after that research, because you're a tool and tried to put all the work on me with new questions, so I called you out. I did the research again for you this time and I'm sure you will come up with another lame excuse for being a lazy *****.
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91 the problem here is you are arguing with someone that was in diapers playing with his **** while you and I watched these games live.

Anyone that tries to say these teams were anywhere near that good just didn't watch these teams.
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This dude only wants to acknowledge the facts that help his statement, but completely ignores those that don't support his stance. I mean, I don't hate Al, and I can only hope he builds what Butch built, but in the meantime, the facts are the facts and Al ain't doing it yet. Butch had less draft picks his first year than Al did, but he had a better record hmmm.
 
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niner2107 said:
My bad, you right, pretty much the same...

1996 draft
Derrick Harris 6th rd
Ray Lewis 1st rd

1997 draft
Yatil Green 1st rd
Tony Gaiter 6th rd
Kenard Lang 1st rd
Kenny Holmes 1st rd
Twan Russell 5th rd
Tremain Mack 4th rd
Marcus Wimberly 5th rd
Carlos Jones 7th rd

1998 draft
Jammi German 3rd rd
Duane Starks 1st rd
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2107, why you hiding your rep *****?
 
poncho0091 said:
niner2107 said:
My bad, you right, pretty much the same...

1996 draft
Derrick Harris 6th rd
Ray Lewis 1st rd

1997 draft
Yatil Green 1st rd
Tony Gaiter 6th rd
Kenard Lang 1st rd
Kenny Holmes 1st rd
Twan Russell 5th rd
Tremain Mack 4th rd
Marcus Wimberly 5th rd
Carlos Jones 7th rd

1998 draft
Jammi German 3rd rd
Duane Starks 1st rd
Click to expand...

**** this is just like the other thread where I make a statement based on some research to answer your question and you come back like a tool and point out something I specifically already mentioned. I specifically said yes there were some good players. I also said the team was better than what Al got. What I said is that it was not so much better as you are making it out to be. I also stated how many first rounders there were in my previous post so I didn't hide it.

Lets start with what you asked for. You asked specifically for the number of draft picks (10 total). I provided it to you. You asked for the year 96 and 97. I provided it to you with what rounds they were drafted. You did not ask for the number of first rounders, but I knew you'd ask so I provided that to (4 total between 96 and 97, the years you asked for).

So since you want to call out what I said was pretty much the same, let's remove the 5th round or later draft picks from 96 and 97. 5 out of 10 players (4- 1st, 1- 4th). Lets go ahead and add the 2 guys from 98 since you want to add that now. 6 out of 12 are now better than the 5th round. Out of Golden's first 2 classes 4 out of 8 were earlier than 5th round. None were first rounders, but early round picks are not scrubs and they were all underclassmen. Last time I checked 5 first rounders over a 3 year period does not mean your whole team was great. It just means you had 5 really good players over 3 years (not all of which started all of their years and if they did were likely not as good in their earliest years, you know, the years when Butch took over). The only early round pick in the first year butch was there was ray and he was a junior when he left. Meaning everyone else that was drafted early was likely a sophomore or younger when Butch took over (since they left early also). According to your standard 3 first round picks that were Sophomores the year Butch took over equals a great team. Apparently Sophomore's are not enough when it's Al though. Guess we'll see where our early entries go next year to determine if Al's team last year should have been great too (based on your standard of course).
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I mean, how do you expect me to take anything you say serious. Aside from plenty of others posts, this last one is the last straw, lol.

Butch's first year, 95. Those players from that team, were drafted in 96. The 96 team that played, had players in 97 drafted. You know, Butch's first 2 years.

C'mon Man!
 
Dan E. Dangerously said:
people who are smarter than me on this board have said Dennis is the best from an x/o's standpoint.
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Ya I definitely agree, his one-back offensive approach was brilliant and seriously helped showcase our speed and athleticism out on the field because it created a lot of one on one match-ups. As far as a game day coach he had it upstairs...but he let the program get too far out of hand. His two national titles were great but a lot of it was because Jimmy paved the way for him.
 
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niner2107 said:
poncho0091 said:
niner2107 said:
My bad, you right, pretty much the same...

1996 draft
Derrick Harris 6th rd
Ray Lewis 1st rd

1997 draft
Yatil Green 1st rd
Tony Gaiter 6th rd
Kenard Lang 1st rd
Kenny Holmes 1st rd
Twan Russell 5th rd
Tremain Mack 4th rd
Marcus Wimberly 5th rd
Carlos Jones 7th rd

1998 draft
Jammi German 3rd rd
Duane Starks 1st rd
Click to expand...

**** this is just like the other thread where I make a statement based on some research to answer your question and you come back like a tool and point out something I specifically already mentioned. I specifically said yes there were some good players. I also said the team was better than what Al got. What I said is that it was not so much better as you are making it out to be. I also stated how many first rounders there were in my previous post so I didn't hide it.

Lets start with what you asked for. You asked specifically for the number of draft picks (10 total). I provided it to you. You asked for the year 96 and 97. I provided it to you with what rounds they were drafted. You did not ask for the number of first rounders, but I knew you'd ask so I provided that to (4 total between 96 and 97, the years you asked for).

So since you want to call out what I said was pretty much the same, let's remove the 5th round or later draft picks from 96 and 97. 5 out of 10 players (4- 1st, 1- 4th). Lets go ahead and add the 2 guys from 98 since you want to add that now. 6 out of 12 are now better than the 5th round. Out of Golden's first 2 classes 4 out of 8 were earlier than 5th round. None were first rounders, but early round picks are not scrubs and they were all underclassmen. Last time I checked 5 first rounders over a 3 year period does not mean your whole team was great. It just means you had 5 really good players over 3 years (not all of which started all of their years and if they did were likely not as good in their earliest years, you know, the years when Butch took over). The only early round pick in the first year butch was there was ray and he was a junior when he left. Meaning everyone else that was drafted early was likely a sophomore or younger when Butch took over (since they left early also). According to your standard 3 first round picks that were Sophomores the year Butch took over equals a great team. Apparently Sophomore's are not enough when it's Al though. Guess we'll see where our early entries go next year to determine if Al's team last year should have been great too (based on your standard of course).
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I mean, how do you expect me to take anything you say serious. Aside from plenty of others posts, this last one is the last straw, lol.

Butch's first year, 95. Those players from that team, were drafted in 96. The 96 team that played, had players in 97 drafted. You know, Butch's first 2 years.

C'mon Man!
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LMAO. you stopped reading everything after that point. We only had 2 drafted in his first year (you know the 96 draft) and Ray was a Junior while Harris was a 6th round pick so only 1 notable upperclassmen when Butch took over. The next year since there were 3 1st rounders were sophomores in Butch's first year. Only 3 people from the 96 and 97 classes were All Americans while at UM and 1 of them wasn't even drafted. Notice after the 97 draft class we went to 5-6 the next year and only had 2 drafted players the following year. That class was Erickson's freshman and remaining sophomores when Butch got there (Starks left as a senior).

Al's first draft class had more drafted players than Butch's. Why didn't he have a better record? That is what you are getting at is Erickson's players that Butch received, but I can play that game too since Al received 8 players who got drafted. What you are not understanding is that it means Randy left older players with more experience. The talent that Erickson left were Sophomores or younger since they were not draft eligible which means they were not as experienced as what Al got from day 1.

I can't even take you serious after I read your half thought out responses. You read a few words and ignore everything else. C'mon man! Again, by your standards maybe Al got left the better team (Not saying I believe that, but we are going by your standard).
 
Dan E. Dangerously said:
people who are smarter than me on this board have said Dennis is the best from an x/o's standpoint.
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The best offensive mind that didn't get the HC was Gary Stevens. Erickson was right behind him. Thing with Dennis, he just didn't like the recruiting bit at the college level.
 
Anyone that lives in a world where 4 first round picks "is pretty much the same as a couple of 3rd-5th rounders" is completely stuck in their own mental vortex.

Do you bro.....
 
niner2107 said:
Anyone that lives in a world where 4 first round picks "is pretty much the same as a couple of 3rd-5th rounders" is completely stuck in their own mental vortex.

Do you bro.....
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2107 why you hiding your rep *****???

175.jpg
 
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Mopers suffer from major inferiority complexes that use negs and reps as a means to make themselves feel better.
 
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Jimmy Johnson invented the modern 4-3 defense, and changed the NFL with it. However said Dennis was the XO's king might want to consider that.

Jimmy was probably the overall greatest coach bc of what he accomplished after UM. but I believe the best coaching job performed AT UM was Howard. He took a Wake Forest or worse level program and in five years turned it into a national champion. There is no Miami without him. We are blessed to be able to have an argument between which of these two masters was our best.

As far as talent identification and development, Butch Davis was easily the greatest. Guy proved it here and at UNC with insane NFL production from his players.

Dennis did his job until it fell apart. He and Coker are very similar.

Al Golden hasn't shown the type of player development Id been hoping for. His tenure has been really disappointing overall.

Randy was the worst coach in program history, and the worst in any sport I've personally seen. His claim to fame is running one page out of Wanstadt's playbook with a million first rounders on D.
 
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