Mike Jackson of Palmetto is this years TuTu Atwell.

[BoxingRobes]

Again, we can debate this thing in circles, but...

If the problem was ONLY "the recruiting services" and their "misevaluations", then you would see the brilliant coaches at Alabama and Clemson and Ohio State uncovering all these 3-star diamonds in the rough, and proving to these "recruiting services" that they don't know ****e. But that ALSO never happens.

Yes, there will always be some incorrect 5-star evals. And incorrect 3-star evals. But the issue is NOT "everyone at the recruiting services are idiots". The REALITY is that there should be a lot more writers/scouts/eyeballs in these heavily populated areas of Florida, Texas, and California. At the end of the day, when you put all the Rivals guys or 247 guys in one room, everyone makes their arguments based on their own observations. Thus, if you have 3 guys who cover SoFla, and 3 guys who cover Arkansas, there number of voices from Arkansas is "equal" to the number of voices advocating for SoFla kids, regardless of the fact that there is MUCH MORE talent in SoFla than Arkansas.

I am not denying that the recruiting services have their limitations. I just don't think it is as binary as you might think. It's not "misevaluation", so much as it is a disproportionate representation "in the room where it happens". Ivins can't possibly get 100 Florida kids on the Top 247, even if it is accurate and warranted.

And college coaches have much larger and much more highly-skilled staffs who can do those evaluations. Thus, if Rivals/247 were WILDLY off in their evaluations, you would quickly see the guys making multi-millions (the head coaches) dispensing with the craptastic Rivals/247 rankings and going with their own rankings. This is why 32 NFL teams have their own draft boards. Everyone has to do their own work. But the fact that there is significant overlap between the Rivals/247 rankings and the signing classes themselves is an indication that Rivals/247 gets it MOSTLY correct.

Finally, look, I'm not going to knock your scouting skills. But you made a comparison to a kid who did "big things" at MARSHALL. So allow me to do my Allen Iverson voice. MARSHALL. My god, you could go out and find a 2 or 3 star kid in Dade, and then predict he is going to do BIG THINGS at Oberlin or Lehigh, and you'd probably be correct. The reality is, you predicted that TuTu would excel at FAU, which is not exactly an earth-shattering prediction (even when it comes true). The kid was one of the 750 best players in the Class of 2018. Had he gone to FAU, he would have been one of the best players on the field for both teams in nearly every game. Now, I have no idea if you would have predicted the same greatness for TuTu at LOUISVILLE, but I would point out that you predicted "special teams" as an FAU freshman. Meanwhile, TuTu did very well at Louisville as a WR as a freshman, so he EXCEEDED your predictions. And then he had an amazing sophomore season that I don't think ANYONE would have predicted.

Again, I ask a very simple question. I'm not talking about a "******* on a message board" predicting big things for a 305 kid going to play in the 561. I'm asking WHAT ASSESSMENT do you think that a coach coulda/woulda/shoulda made, on which he would stake his own six-figure salary, that would justify him taking a low 3-star, position-changing kid standing 5'8" and weighing 150 pounds (notwithstanding your bold predictions on TuTu hitting the weight room)? And not just the MIAMI coaches, but ALL of the coaches (except for Louisville). This is not a knock against you, but I have seen NOBODY (particularly smack-talking Coach Macho) acknowledge that these college coaches have very little in-person evaluation time. Not to mention the no-patience/win-now world isn't exactly set up to wait around for a kid to change positions in college for the very first time.

That's all. I've never told people "you are insane to have been a TuTu Atwell fan when he was in high school". I've only said that it is nuts to put all of the blame in the world on "Miami coaches" who had very little EVIDENCE to project Atwell's position change, while also having plenty of higher-rated, more-experienced, and larger WR candidates on the board.

This is the real world. If you're going to take a chance on TuTu Atwell at Miami in 2018, someone else in our recruiting class has to go. And it's easy to identify those kids 2 years later. It's a lot harder to do on Signing Day.

Truth.

re: The Recruiting Services --

They piggyback offers. This isn't some revelation or anything, and I know you know this...so Alabama, Ohio State, Georgia wouldn't really be uncovering a slew of 3-stars anyway, because most of their players are getting that bump. That isn't to say they don't uncover 3-stars...Alabama has had players like Kareem Jackson, Josh Jacobs, etc. go in Round 1 and they were 3-star players.

Moving on to Tutu Atwell specifically...he wasn't some .80 grade 3-star player...he was a mid-3 star player (and probably would have been higher if Miami would have taken his commit...because, as I stated earlier, the services basically piggyback offers). I compared him to Tommy Shuler before his senior year...FWIW - Tommy Shuler...yeah, its Marshall, but he's one of the best WRs to ever play there, and that includes Randy Moss. Finished his career the all-time leader in receptions and Top 5 in both yards and touchdowns. That's a pretty good collegiate comparison for a fellow midget. Onto the collegiate side...again, he wasn't some unknown nobody. Was a solid mid-3 star player...in that very class, we took 4 guys that rated below him. In the same range of grade, we took Greg Rousseau in the same class. I don't think its a stretch for a coach, whether it be the head coach (who was actually recruiting him) or the position coach (who we all know was horrendous at his job) to suggest - or even pound the table - taking a mid-3 star wide receiver. Its not as much of a stretch as you're stating, IMO. We take guys at his level every year. Some years, many.

Its easy to fall back on "higher rated player"...but your eyetest stinks if your higher rated player stinks after four seasons and the guy you passed on was immediately good in the same conference. "But, he was higher rated" can not be the fallback excuse every time. Its lazy. And you know these dudes that work at 247, Rivals, etc. couldn't be less qualified to evaluate actual players. You or I could assemble recruiting classes based off rankings, that doesn't mean you or I would be good at our jobs. It took Tutu Atwell like 15 college games to do what Mark Pope has done in his entire competitive football life as a wide receiver. Everyone got it wrong, but Miami shouldn't be absolved along with everyone else...this is their home turf, they are being paid to know this ****, IMO. And we can nitpick Tutu Atwell, but you can extend the discussion to Schwartz or Moore in the same class. Those are three local guys that are better than every.single.one of the WRs we took that year. That's malpractice and negligence and to make it worse, I don't think its unfair to say that Atwell was a better wide receiver than every wide receiver Miami took before he even took a snap...he was. A part of your job has to be projecting a players skill set and Miami (and many others) didn't with Tutu Atwell, but they should have.

 

[Number1CanesFan]

It may be hard to evaluate against top WRs, but that's the task and there's no avoiding it. All evaluating is hard. Our staff has been absolutely terrible at evaluating 'regular WRs', in any case, so it's hard to see how they'd do worse taking truly superior athletes who play QB in Dade.

Edit:


There's a LOT to say for this. It can't or shouldn't be 100% one approach or the opposite, for sure. But taking great athletes has to be a key part of a good recruiting strategy. We used to do just that. Over the years, we evolved towards more of a cookie cutter mindset, at least at some positions. FSU was always more athletically tilted.

Personally, I think this is a good discussion that falls under what I've consistently yapped about around here as 'identifying your criteria' in order to have an effective plan and process for recruiting. Criteria is both overall (position needs) and position-specific (traits you look for or avoid). But it can and should include some traits that can show up here or there but are needed somewhere. Those traits include overall plus athleticism and character/leadership matters. You can take a questionable kid if you have the right culture. You cannot take too many of them. Conversely, you can take some great culture fits if they're okay athletes ... but again, not too many. It's a jigsaw puzzle any given year, but our staff has recruited like they're trying to put the puzzle together blindfolded. IMO.

I think you get a mix. Get some guys that are great athletes and find a place for them to play.

One thing I'd like to see is recruiting tall WRs and tall TEs. Look at Clemson. Look at Iowa State. Both have more guys at least 6'3" at those postions.

I'm from Iowa. I've been watching Matt Campbell work his magic. He consistently recruits tall WRs who are very productive and has put them in the league. Clemson much the same. Tall guys with a wide catch radius that can win 50/50 balls. That's the key. Look at how Clemson plays. They beat you with downfield throws and on defense they play tight man coverage and force you to beat them downfield.

 

[TheOriginalCane]

re: The Recruiting Services --

They piggyback offers. This isn't some revelation or anything, and I know you know this...so Alabama, Ohio State, Georgia wouldn't really be uncovering a slew of 3-stars anyway, because most of their players are getting that bump. That isn't to say they don't uncover 3-stars...Alabama has had players like Kareem Jackson, Josh Jacobs, etc. go in Round 1 and they were 3-star players.

Moving on to Tutu Atwell specifically...he wasn't some .80 grade 3-star player...he was a mid-3 star player (and probably would have been higher if Miami would have taken his commit...because, as I stated earlier, the services basically piggyback offers). I compared him to Tommy Shuler before his senior year...FWIW - Tommy Shuler...yeah, its Marshall, but he's one of the best WRs to ever play there, and that includes Randy Moss. Finished his career the all-time leader in receptions and Top 5 in both yards and touchdowns. That's a pretty good collegiate comparison for a fellow midget. Onto the collegiate side...again, he wasn't some unknown nobody. Was a solid mid-3 star player...in that very class, we took 4 guys that rated below him. In the same range of grade, we took Greg Rousseau in the same class. I don't think its a stretch for a coach, whether it be the head coach (who was actually recruiting him) or the position coach (who we all know was horrendous at his job) to suggest - or even pound the table - taking a mid-3 star wide receiver. Its not as much of a stretch as you're stating, IMO. We take guys at his level every year. Some years, many.

Its easy to fall back on "higher rated player"...but your eyetest stinks if your higher rated player stinks after four seasons and the guy you passed on was immediately good in the same conference. "But, he was higher rated" can not be the fallback excuse every time. Its lazy. And you know these dudes that work at 247, Rivals, etc. couldn't be less qualified to evaluate actual players. You or I could assemble recruiting classes based off rankings, that doesn't mean you or I would be good at our jobs. It took Tutu Atwell like 15 college games to do what Mark Pope has done in his entire competitive football life as a wide receiver. Everyone got it wrong, but Miami shouldn't be absolved along with everyone else...this is their home turf, they are being paid to know this ****, IMO. And we can nitpick Tutu Atwell, but you can extend the discussion to Schwartz or Moore in the same class. Those are three local guys that are better than every.single.one of the WRs we took that year. That's malpractice and negligence and to make it worse, I don't think its unfair to say that Atwell was a better wide receiver than every wide receiver Miami took before he even took a snap...he was. A part of your job has to be projecting a players skill set and Miami (and many others) didn't with Tutu Atwell, but they should have.

Again.

To be clear.

My "fallback excuse" is not, and never has been "but he was higher rated". I am using that as ONE out of several data points. And I am asking ANYONE to provide evidence, and make the argument, that overcomes MULTIPLE data points that give the edge to Pope/Hightower/Wiggins/Ezzard IN THE YEAR OF OUR LORD 2018. Because, yes, in 2020, Atwell looks a lot better.

So let's address things one at a time. No, Alabama/Ohio State/Georgia are NOT "getting bumps" for kids they offer. The rating history of each of these kids (particularly the 4-star and 5-star kids) is very clear on 247 (less so on Rivals), kids don't shoot up 200 or 300 spots just because they got an Alabama/Ohio State/Georgia bump. ****, just ask the Gaytor fans. And, yes, later in the cycle, those schools may indeed take some 3-star kids, it happens. It's **** near impossible to convince 25 kids who are ALL 4-star and 5-star to sign with your school every year. There's only so many starters.

Look, I'm not going to belabor Atwell, but I just want to point out some of your comparisons. For instance, you are saying that Atwell was "better than 4 players Miami took" without acknowledging that 1 of those 4 was a kicker, and 1 was a fullback. If you really want to compare apples to apples, just acknowledge that Pope/Hightower/Ezzard were all Top 350 guys, and that the "worst" of them (Ezzard) was nearly 400 spots higher-rated than Atwell. Yes, ranking is not determinative, but that's a BIG ratings difference. Heck, compare "offer lists", and Ezzard is also clearly ahead. ****, Ezzard had offers from Alabama and Ohio Taint, and Atwell had Louisville and Illinois.

And, yes, Rousseau wasn't super-highly-ranked on 247...but he was a 4-star on Rivals.

Finally, I'm going to skip ahead to your comments on Elijah Moore and Anthony Schwartz. I'm not sure why you call it "malpractice" and "negligence" on the part of the Miami coaches. Both of those guys had Miami offers. Sometimes, kids choose to go elsewhere, but you certainly can't say that Miami didn't offer Moore and Schwartz.

And I'll close on this. With the evidence available in 2017, "project" Atwell's skill set. So far, all I have heard is "speed". Nobody has ever made a comment on his hands, route running, or ability to go up in the air to high-point the ball or fight for the ball. It is just too vague to say "project a position change" when nobody cites the reasons why a kid should be playing WR over another position. The only "evidence" that people provide is "after-the-fact". Too easy.

 

[Coach Macho]

Look, you are so full of ****e, it isn't even funny.

In one porst you argue (in capital letters) that Atwell was THE MOST EXPLOSIVE PLAYER IN THE STATE. You know, the State of Florida, which is the third largest state in the country, and produces the greatest number of Division I football players, per capita.

In the next porst, you act like 116 Division I-A schools have "bigger fish to fry" than THE MOST EXPLOSIVE PLAYER IN THE STATE.

Now, you can sit here for another half-dozen porsts claiming that it was sooooo obvious that TuTu Atwell was the BEST FOOTBALL PLAYER IN SOUTH FLORIDA as well as THE MOST EXPLOSIVE PLAYER IN THE STATE, but I've pointed out that none of the recruiting services agreed with you, and 63 out of 65 Power Five programs also didn't agree with you.

And, hey, pat on the back to you for being right once in a while, TuTu Atwell has done very well at Louisville. I'm happy for the kid and his development and his future, and I will always be a fan of his.

I'm stating, very clearly and very to-the-point, that if TuTu Atwell's projection to WR was soooooo obvious that even Stevie Wonder saw it, then it seems like the ranking services would have ranked him higher, more Power Five schools would have offered, and this all would have happened a year earlier. After all, he's been a "South Florida legend" since he was in Huggies.

But, oh yeah...none of that stuff happened. And, as per usual, and right on cue, Miami gets blamed for everything. Miami should have scouted Tutu better. Miami should have offered TuTu. Miami should have told the world about THE BEST FOOTBALL PLAYER IN SOUTH FLORIDA and, more importantly, THE MOST EXPLOSIVE PLAYER IN THE STATE.

Yes, Miami had the ONLY coaching staff available to act as The Silver Surfer to TuTu Atwell's Galactus. That's right, in one of the historically best (and most talented) high schools in the largest metropolitan area in the third largest state in the US, THE MOST EXPLOSIVE PLAYER IN THE STATE was busy falling through the cracks.

Give me a freaking break from all your defective logic and AT LEAST admit that there were plenty of scouts, coaches, and writers who did not have TuTu Atwell rated nearly as high as you did.

Look, in the past 20 years, the best WR signing classes that Miami has ever had have been THIS YEAR, 2018, 2016, 2008, and 2002.

But people still whine that we didn't take Santonio Holmes in 2002.

LOL @ this goofy MF'er.

I stopped reading after you referenced recruiting services, cause THAT RIGHT THERE shows me that you don't know ****.
Kids like Tutu will ALWAYS be underrated/undervalued by the recruiting services because of physical stature.
They're very unlikely to give a high WR rating to a 5'8" 160lb kid that plays QB. That's why he wasn't ranked higher. And most P5 schools from outside Miami aren't going to take a chance on a 5'8" 160lb QB for their WR signing class.
In cases like this you throw the recruiting rankings out of the window and look at the tape, DUMMY!

This is one of those situations where the local problem is supposed to have a beat on. Do you remember how/why Santana Moss was offered? Fvckin' kid was 5'8" and played WR in the wing-t offense. He caught like 3 passes. Butch evaluated his ATHLETICISM!
You see, Miami's staff doesn't have the foresight to evaluate kids like this, and this is partially why we've sucked and been void of talent for a long time. We're sitting here debating about Atwell, but there's a longgg list of local studs that Miami didn't offer for various, dumbass reasons, who ultimately went onto other schools and balled.

He would've been the best WR on our squad RIGHT NOW and would've provided us with the return ability that we've missed for years. And if you're relying on recruiting services to tell you that then you know d!ck about South Florida high school football.

Stop trying to alleviate this staff of blame for thier **** poor evaluations, you cuck.

 

[TheOriginalCane]

I stopped reading after you referenced recruiting services, cause THAT RIGHT THERE shows me that you don't know ****.
Kids like Tutu will ALWAYS be underrated/undervalued by the recruiting services because of physical stature.
They're very unlikely to give a high WR rating to a 5'8" 160lb kid that plays QB. In cases like this you throw the recruiting rankings out of the window and look at the tape, DUMMY!

He would've been the best WR on our squad RIGHT NOW and would've provided us with the return ability that we've missed for years. And if you're relying on recruiting services to tell you that then you know d!ck about South Florida high school football.

Hilarious.

Here's some shocking news for you...NO recruiting service gives a WR rating to a kid that plays QB. Regardless of size.

Mind...blown.

The whole "size" issue is just you whining. If Atwell was so fired up to play WR...hmmm...let's see...he could have refused the QB offer from FAU...he could have contacted Rivals/247 to be listed as an ATH instead of a QB...he could have used the summer to train as a WR and put some of his sweet, sweet WR moves on tape.

But...THERE WAS NO TAPE. There's no tape of TuTu Atwell playing WR.

Nobody is "relying on recruiting services". Over 120 Division I-A schools could have offered Atwell. Very few did. Don't be mad at me for stating facts.

 

[Coach Macho]

Hilarious.

Here's some shocking news for you...NO recruiting service gives a WR rating to a kid that plays QB. Regardless of size.

Mind...blown.

The whole "size" issue is just you whining. If Atwell was so fired up to play WR...hmmm...let's see...he could have refused the QB offer from FAU...he could have contacted Rivals/247 to be listed as an ATH instead of a QB...he could have used the summer to train as a WR and put some of his sweet, sweet WR moves on tape.

But...THERE WAS NO TAPE. There's no tape of TuTu Atwell playing WR.

Nobody is "relying on recruiting services". Over 120 Division I-A schools could have offered Atwell. Very few did. Don't be mad at me for stating facts.

OMG.

Bro go away.
You're dumb.

 

[Coach Macho]

Again.

To be clear.

My "fallback excuse" is not, and never has been "but he was higher rated". I am using that as ONE out of several data points. And I am asking ANYONE to provide evidence, and make the argument, that overcomes MULTIPLE data points that give the edge to Pope/Hightower/Wiggins/Ezzard IN THE YEAR OF OUR LORD 2018. Because, yes, in 2020, Atwell looks a lot better.

So let's address things one at a time. No, Alabama/Ohio State/Georgia are NOT "getting bumps" for kids they offer. The rating history of each of these kids (particularly the 4-star and 5-star kids) is very clear on 247 (less so on Rivals), kids don't shoot up 200 or 300 spots just because they got an Alabama/Ohio State/Georgia bump. ****, just ask the Gaytor fans. And, yes, later in the cycle, those schools may indeed take some 3-star kids, it happens. It's **** near impossible to convince 25 kids who are ALL 4-star and 5-star to sign with your school every year. There's only so many starters.

Look, I'm not going to belabor Atwell, but I just want to point out some of your comparisons. For instance, you are saying that Atwell was "better than 4 players Miami took" without acknowledging that 1 of those 4 was a kicker, and 1 was a fullback. If you really want to compare apples to apples, just acknowledge that Pope/Hightower/Ezzard were all Top 350 guys, and that the "worst" of them (Ezzard) was nearly 400 spots higher-rated than Atwell. Yes, ranking is not determinative, but that's a BIG ratings difference. Heck, compare "offer lists", and Ezzard is also clearly ahead. ****, Ezzard had offers from Alabama and Ohio Taint, and Atwell had Louisville and Illinois.

And, yes, Rousseau wasn't super-highly-ranked on 247...but he was a 4-star on Rivals.

Finally, I'm going to skip ahead to your comments on Elijah Moore and Anthony Schwartz. I'm not sure why you call it "malpractice" and "negligence" on the part of the Miami coaches. Both of those guys had Miami offers. Sometimes, kids choose to go elsewhere, but you certainly can't say that Miami didn't offer Moore and Schwartz.

And I'll close on this. With the evidence available in 2017, "project" Atwell's skill set. So far, all I have heard is "speed". Nobody has ever made a comment on his hands, route running, or ability to go up in the air to high-point the ball or fight for the ball. It is just too vague to say "project a position change" when nobody cites the reasons why a kid should be playing WR over another position. The only "evidence" that people provide is "after-the-fact". Too easy.

This is why you should just STFU.

Ability to high-point the football from a slot WR? LOL
Okay Mel Kiper.

NOBODY GIVES A FVCK ABOUT THAT ****.

All you had to do was turn on the tape and watch his speed, explosiveness and ability to change direction. That's it!
The main single handily embarrassed elite defenses ROUTINELY with the ball in his hands.

 

[TheOriginalCane]

OMG.

Bro go away.
You're dumb.

Such intelligent and insightful name-calling.

 

[TheOriginalCane]

This is why you should just STFU.

Ability to high-point the football from a slot WR? LOL
Okay Mel Kiper.

NOBODY GIVES A FVCK ABOUT THAT ****.

All you had to do was turn on the tape and watch his speed, explosiveness and ability to change direction. That's it!
The main single handily embarrassed elite defenses ROUTINELY with the ball in his hands.

You've split the atom. All we have to do is go out and find a guy who can run fast and change directions. That guy will single-handedly reinvent football.

****, we've been too obsessed with recruiting slow guys who can only run in one direction. If only UM could afford to hire Coach Macho away from the Dade County Public School system, Miami could get back to winning national championships.

 

[Coach Macho]

You've split the atom. All we have to do is go out and find a guy who can run fast and change directions. That guy will single-handedly reinvent football.

****, we've been too obsessed with recruiting slow guys who can only run in one direction. If only UM could afford to hire Coach Macho away from the Dade County Public School system, Miami could get back to winning national championships.

 

[BoxingRobes]

Again.

To be clear.

My "fallback excuse" is not, and never has been "but he was higher rated". I am using that as ONE out of several data points. And I am asking ANYONE to provide evidence, and make the argument, that overcomes MULTIPLE data points that give the edge to Pope/Hightower/Wiggins/Ezzard IN THE YEAR OF OUR LORD 2018. Because, yes, in 2020, Atwell looks a lot better.

So let's address things one at a time. No, Alabama/Ohio State/Georgia are NOT "getting bumps" for kids they offer. The rating history of each of these kids (particularly the 4-star and 5-star kids) is very clear on 247 (less so on Rivals), kids don't shoot up 200 or 300 spots just because they got an Alabama/Ohio State/Georgia bump. ****, just ask the Gaytor fans. And, yes, later in the cycle, those schools may indeed take some 3-star kids, it happens. It's **** near impossible to convince 25 kids who are ALL 4-star and 5-star to sign with your school every year. There's only so many starters.

Look, I'm not going to belabor Atwell, but I just want to point out some of your comparisons. For instance, you are saying that Atwell was "better than 4 players Miami took" without acknowledging that 1 of those 4 was a kicker, and 1 was a fullback. If you really want to compare apples to apples, just acknowledge that Pope/Hightower/Ezzard were all Top 350 guys, and that the "worst" of them (Ezzard) was nearly 400 spots higher-rated than Atwell. Yes, ranking is not determinative, but that's a BIG ratings difference. Heck, compare "offer lists", and Ezzard is also clearly ahead. ****, Ezzard had offers from Alabama and Ohio Taint, and Atwell had Louisville and Illinois.

And, yes, Rousseau wasn't super-highly-ranked on 247...but he was a 4-star on Rivals.

Finally, I'm going to skip ahead to your comments on Elijah Moore and Anthony Schwartz. I'm not sure why you call it "malpractice" and "negligence" on the part of the Miami coaches. Both of those guys had Miami offers. Sometimes, kids choose to go elsewhere, but you certainly can't say that Miami didn't offer Moore and Schwartz.

And I'll close on this. With the evidence available in 2017, "project" Atwell's skill set. So far, all I have heard is "speed". Nobody has ever made a comment on his hands, route running, or ability to go up in the air to high-point the ball or fight for the ball. It is just too vague to say "project a position change" when nobody cites the reasons why a kid should be playing WR over another position. The only "evidence" that people provide is "after-the-fact". Too easy.

re: "The Offer Bump"

Why Bama interest *should* boost recruit ratings

The Crimson Tide are close to signing their fifth straight No. 1 recruiting class. Have their on-field and NFL Draft results ever suggested their rankings are inflated?

www.sbnation.com

It definitely exists, your mileage may vary on the minutiae of the topic.

re: Atwell versus the field

All of those players stink, man. I don't care if they were rated higher. I could not care less what Andrew Ivins or Mike Bakas or Gary Ferman think of football players and you can extend that to Brandon Huffman or whatever group of jabronis are ranking these players in these meetings. They are no more qualified than you or I and everyone got those players wrong. Atwell was legitimately better than everyone of them from the second he stepped on a college football practice field at the position. As for a 2018 lens...he was the county player of the year by the end of his senior year

re: Offers

Just because you offer a player, doesn't mean that player is recruited well and sometimes, even at all throughout the entire process.

Also, the elephant in the room is none of this discussion matters because Miami didn't even think to recruit him as a wide receiver. Didn't even cross their mind when Louisville and all of his G5 offers were.

From the Herald article on Atwell from this past season

“They thought they had to pursue him as a quarterback,” Edwards told the South Florida Sun Sentinel. "Tutu knew all the time that he was an athlete, and he knew what he was going to be playing in college. Miami probably thought, ‘We have to get him as a quarterback, so we’re not going to take him. He’s not what we want in a quarterback.’ But Tutu knew all along that he was probably going to be playing the position that he’s playing now.

“Louisville knew that, and Tutu knew that, so that’s why they recruited him.”

As for traits beyond speed? I mean, that can be enough of a trump card as is...and if you watched him play, you'd see a dynamic playmaker with the ball in in his hands...and what about his adaptability, leadership qualities, maturity as outlined by his head coach.

“He’s a very special young man that has gotten better every year. He had to deal with a few different offensive coordinators and showed an ability to adapt each time. His leadership? His maturity? It came by playing. He never once fussed at any kid and we needed every ounce of that maturity and leadership out there tonight, especially on that last drive. He’s got a great future at the next level.”

That is just after he won a state title in a game he determined the outcome of. He was small, but had elite speed, playmaker with the ball in his hands, mature, leader, adaptable...you mentioned "hands, route running, high pointing a football"...which one of those WRs we recruited that year had hands, route running, or the ability to high point a football? None of them. Which of the WRs we received commitments from that year had elite speed, was a playmaker with the ball in his hands, showed maturity, leadership and adaptability? None of them. But Tutu Atwell did. FWIW - Atwell had better hands, route running ability and the ability to high point a football better than any of the WRs rated ahead of him that Miami took commitments from the very second he stepped foot on campus in Louisville, and its because maturity, leadership, and adaptability are far more important traits than any of the above.

Andrew Schulz had a very good quote recently talking about his team with Flagrant 2 and his special he just produced for Netflix...to paraphrase, he said the number one thing he looks for is competence in the people that he works with...because if a person is competent, you can give them anything and they'll figure it out. In the sport of football, maturity, leadership, and adaptability is the equivalent of competence.

 

[Ethnicsands]

I don't care if we do things differently, I'm fine with it.

But kids have to also be willing to do camps and get video of them performing other skill sets if they want to get full consideration. Not once have I heard anyone say "but TuTu had this amazing film of him playing WR that the Miami coaches refused to watch".

You can't just project a kid to change position simply because he is fast. Dozens of colleges wanted to recruit Lamar Jackson as a WR. How did that turn out?

We now live in a world of college football where kids are hitting the portal after a year. The patience level is not high. The environment for a "Top 25" university (and we may not always be that in the end-of-year rankings, but we are almost always ranked in the Top 25 by recruiting classes) to take a chance and have patience with a kid who is changing positions...is not great...

We've seen a lot of stubborn kids who don't want to change positions. Lamar Jackson (worked out great), Turdbarrel, even this one CB kid that we are chasing, he really wants to play WR. I'm perfectly happy if TuTu Atwell tells the world "I want to switch from QB to WR". But I'd also like to see if the kid takes some time to build his WR skills before college, and I'd certainly like to see some film as well. I don't think it's too much to ask.

And I would really like to challenge ANYONE to tell me what the magical "scouting test" is that our coaches are supposed to use to figure out whether we should be changing a kid's position. Lots of porsters are completely clueless as to HOW LITTLE time any college coach has to physically examine a recruit. What should Miami have done? Gone to all of TuTu's HS games, when he was playing QB? Seriously, I am so happy the kid has turned into an excellent WR, but what was the secret method that Miami would have used to determine that, in the absence of TuTu playing WR or training as a WR or getting film of himself running WR drills?

What’s the secret method butch used? What’s warren buffet’s secret method? in cfb it’s evaluate. it’s the whole reason this discussion happens. if you’re some ‘efficient market theory’ type who thinks recruiting site lists reflect the best info that can be had, then lulz at you, that’s a face plant. but once you realize that’s false you’re done in this discussion. effin evaluate.

kids have to also be willing to do camps and get video of them performing other skill sets if they want to get full consideration.

lmao. you got a plantation attitude. the job of a head coach is to find talent and win, not reluctantly evaluate kids who ‘do camps.’.

Not once have I heard anyone say "but TuTu had this amazing film of him playing WR that the Miami coaches refused to watch".

You sound like al golden defending himself.

 

[Ethnicsands]

I think you get a mix. Get some guys that are great athletes and find a place for them to play.

One thing I'd like to see is recruiting tall WRs and tall TEs. Look at Clemson. Look at Iowa State. Both have more guys at least 6'3" at those postions.

I'm from Iowa. I've been watching Matt Campbell work his magic. He consistently recruits tall WRs who are very productive and has put them in the league. Clemson much the same. Tall guys with a wide catch radius that can win 50/50 balls. That's the key. Look at how Clemson plays. They beat you with downfield throws and on defense they play tight man coverage and force you to beat them downfield.

there is certainly an element of recruiting guys who fit your scheme. But we’ve recruited too many tall wrs who shy from contact, and height ain’t even all that in the nfl. toughness at wr is critical. use of body, hands.

 

[Ethnicsands]

Hilarious.

Here's some shocking news for you...NO recruiting service gives a WR rating to a kid that plays QB. Regardless of size.

Mind...blown.

The whole "size" issue is just you whining. If Atwell was so fired up to play WR...hmmm...let's see...he could have refused the QB offer from FAU...he could have contacted Rivals/247 to be listed as an ATH instead of a QB...he could have used the summer to train as a WR and put some of his sweet, sweet WR moves on tape.

But...THERE WAS NO TAPE. There's no tape of TuTu Atwell playing WR.

Nobody is "relying on recruiting services". Over 120 Division I-A schools could have offered Atwell. Very few did. Don't be mad at me for stating facts.

If recruiting services don’t matter
to those schools evals, why do you keep mentioning recruiting services?

 

[Ethnicsands]

Again.

To be clear.

My "fallback excuse" is not, and never has been "but he was higher rated". I am using that as ONE out of several data points. And I am asking ANYONE to provide evidence, and make the argument, that overcomes MULTIPLE data points that give the edge to Pope/Hightower/Wiggins/Ezzard IN THE YEAR OF OUR LORD 2018. Because, yes, in 2020, Atwell looks a lot better.

So let's address things one at a time. No, Alabama/Ohio State/Georgia are NOT "getting bumps" for kids they offer. The rating history of each of these kids (particularly the 4-star and 5-star kids) is very clear on 247 (less so on Rivals), kids don't shoot up 200 or 300 spots just because they got an Alabama/Ohio State/Georgia bump. ****, just ask the Gaytor fans. And, yes, later in the cycle, those schools may indeed take some 3-star kids, it happens. It's **** near impossible to convince 25 kids who are ALL 4-star and 5-star to sign with your school every year. There's only so many starters.

Look, I'm not going to belabor Atwell, but I just want to point out some of your comparisons. For instance, you are saying that Atwell was "better than 4 players Miami took" without acknowledging that 1 of those 4 was a kicker, and 1 was a fullback. If you really want to compare apples to apples, just acknowledge that Pope/Hightower/Ezzard were all Top 350 guys, and that the "worst" of them (Ezzard) was nearly 400 spots higher-rated than Atwell. Yes, ranking is not determinative, but that's a BIG ratings difference. Heck, compare "offer lists", and Ezzard is also clearly ahead. ****, Ezzard had offers from Alabama and Ohio Taint, and Atwell had Louisville and Illinois.

And, yes, Rousseau wasn't super-highly-ranked on 247...but he was a 4-star on Rivals.

Finally, I'm going to skip ahead to your comments on Elijah Moore and Anthony Schwartz. I'm not sure why you call it "malpractice" and "negligence" on the part of the Miami coaches. Both of those guys had Miami offers. Sometimes, kids choose to go elsewhere, but you certainly can't say that Miami didn't offer Moore and Schwartz.

And I'll close on this. With the evidence available in 2017, "project" Atwell's skill set. So far, all I have heard is "speed". Nobody has ever made a comment on his hands, route running, or ability to go up in the air to high-point the ball or fight for the ball. It is just too vague to say "project a position change" when nobody cites the reasons why a kid should be playing WR over another position. The only "evidence" that people provide is "after-the-fact". Too easy.

woo wee. you say that because you read it on a fan site? you think alabama would have taken ezzard’s commitment? did he take an official to alabama?

 

[AHURT12]

Another thread down the drain.

 

[DadeBaby]

When? 25 years ago?

Name all of Miami's "converted HS QBs" who played WR. I'll wait.

Allen Hurns was a QB to WR
Trayone Gray and DJ Dallas were qb to rb

 

[TheOriginalCane]

What’s the secret method butch used? What’s warren buffet’s secret method? in cfb it’s evaluate. it’s the whole reason this discussion happens. if you’re some ‘efficient market theory’ type who thinks recruiting site lists reflect the best info that can be had, then lulz at you, that’s a face plant. but once you realize that’s false you’re done in this discussion. effin evaluate.


lmao. you got a plantation attitude. the job of a head coach is to find talent and win, not reluctantly evaluate kids who ‘do camps.’.

You sound like al golden defending himself.

Butch did not have a secret method for projecting position changes, because he did not rely on a ton of position changes. Also, Warren Buffet doesn't coach football. As for what Butch and Pete did, they made 5x7 index cards on every player in South Florida, they went out and talked to all the teachers and coaches and friends to find out the character of the player. They found kids with a particular mindset, not a particular skillset, because the skills were presumed.

As for your "plantation attitude" comment, you are way out-of-bounds there. Football camps are like job fairs for kids who want to play college football. You go out, demonstrate your abilities, impress people, and reap the rewards. What kind of motherfvcking ****** would say "hey, don't go to job fairs, don't send out your resume, it's up to the job recruiters to find you"? Even the article you posted is mealy-mouthed about Atwell changing positions, it says he "probably" was going to be playing WR.

Look, I've been very clear for a very long time, I have always felt that most prep and high school coaches don't really look out for these kids' best interests. Little League coaches burn out young pitchers' arms by making them pitch every couple of days. And high school football coaches play kids out of position because that kid is faster than other kids. I'm not sure why you had to equate "dressing for the job you want" or "going to the job fairs" with "plantation attitude", but that's your personal hang-up, not mine.

If you want to play WR, if you think you can excel at the next level as a WR, then start preparing early. Don't wait around for very few coaches to recognize your "ability to change directions". It's just so comical that you think that the Louisville coaches were some insightful bunch. Lamar Thomas was the ONE coach pushing for Louisville to take Lamar Jackson, and then Louisville thought that they might strike lightning twice with TuTu Atwell. Good for them. But if they were so **** brilliant at identifying great talent and switching positions, you'd think they might be able to translate that into a few more wins.

It's just sad to see a couple of buffoons alternating between "coaches are supposed to find all kinds of hidden talent, that's their job, the kids shouldn't have to do anything" and "you can't expect 100 D-1 coaching staffs to be able to scour the country for talent". It's all a part of the "let's blame Miami coaches for everything, and never blame any other coaching staffs for anything".

 

[Ethnicsands]

Butch did not have a secret method for projecting position changes, because he did not rely on a ton of position changes. Also, Warren Buffet doesn't coach football. As for what Butch and Pete did, they made 5x7 index cards on every player in South Florida, they went out and talked to all the teachers and coaches and friends to find out the character of the player. They found kids with a particular mindset, not a particular skillset, because the skills were presumed.

As for your "plantation attitude" comment, you are way out-of-bounds there. Football camps are like job fairs for kids who want to play college football. You go out, demonstrate your abilities, impress people, and reap the rewards. What kind of motherfvcking ****** would say "hey, don't go to job fairs, don't send out your resume, it's up to the job recruiters to find you"? Even the article you posted is mealy-mouthed about Atwell changing positions, it says he "probably" was going to be playing WR.

Look, I've been very clear for a very long time, I have always felt that most prep and high school coaches don't really look out for these kids' best interests. Little League coaches burn out young pitchers' arms by making them pitch every couple of days. And high school football coaches play kids out of position because that kid is faster than other kids. I'm not sure why you had to equate "dressing for the job you want" or "going to the job fairs" with "plantation attitude", but that's your personal hang-up, not mine.

If you want to play WR, if you think you can excel at the next level as a WR, then start preparing early. Don't wait around for very few coaches to recognize your "ability to change directions". It's just so comical that you think that the Louisville coaches were some insightful bunch. Lamar Thomas was the ONE coach pushing for Louisville to take Lamar Jackson, and then Louisville thought that they might strike lightning twice with TuTu Atwell. Good for them. But if they were so **** brilliant at identifying great talent and switching positions, you'd think they might be able to translate that into a few more wins.

It's just sad to see a couple of buffoons alternating between "coaches are supposed to find all kinds of hidden talent, that's their job, the kids shouldn't have to do anything" and "you can't expect 100 D-1 coaching staffs to be able to scour the country for talent". It's all a part of the "let's blame Miami coaches for everything, and never blame any other coaching staffs for anything".

ROFLMGDAO

You seriously, mane?

This is a Miami board, and considering how bad the program has been for nearly two decades, you should expect to hear discussion of what our corches are doing poorly at, and areas they should do better at. If you can’t handle that, don’t come to a message board.

As for other staffs, what? I am sure you can find fans of other schools crapping on their coaches on other boards. You’re also free to crap on other coaches here if it suits you and the mods don’t ban you for derailing threads. But why you’d be upset that you don’t see enough comments by UM fans blaming ‘other coaching staffs for anything’, that’s really between you and your therapist. Maybe you’re blind, because it happens.

 

[TheOriginalCane]

ROFLMGDAO

You seriously, mane?

This is a Miami board, and considering how bad the program has been for nearly two decades, you should expect to hear discussion of what our corches are doing poorly at, and areas they should do better at. If you can’t handle that, don’t come to a message board.

As for other staffs, what? I am sure you can find fans of other schools crapping on their coaches on other boards. You’re also free to crap on other coaches here if it suits you and the mods don’t ban you for derailing threads. But why you’d be upset that you don’t see enough comments by UM fans blaming ‘other coaching staffs for anything’, that’s really between you and your therapist. Maybe you’re blind, because it happens.

You (personally) are incapable of differentiating between "what the coaches are doing poorly at" and "oh my God, the coaches are negligent because they didn't offer a 3-star kid who wanted to change positions". Once again, 63 other Power Five programs didn't offer Atwell, but Miami is the only coaching staff being accused of "negligence" by you.

Hilarious. You act as if five different coaching staffs have been doing all the same things for 20 years. You're one of the gross oversimplifiers, who act as if a 20 year period is "all Donna's fault" or some such nonsense.

Miami has made plenty of mistakes over the past 20 years. But it does nobody any good to scream about Manny's staff for stuff that Randy's or Al's staff did wrong.

Over the past 20 years, the NCAA rules have changed. Technology has changed. Staff size has changed. Obviously, Miami needs to make some adjustments to the evaluation process. I have spoken FOR YEARS about going back to Butch's method of keeping tabs on every SoFla kid over years of time, but using more modern technology. For instance, if Banda goes out to talk to a kid's 8th grade guidance counselor, can we put that on video instead of a 5x7 note card? Can we build up a digital file on these kids? Game video, phone calls (*recorded with permission*), stats from every possible camp/combine the kid has ever attended?

This isn't complicated. I'm trying to have a simple conversation about how to do things in 2021 using modern methods and following the current rules. Meanwhile, there are a few lunkheads spouting generalities about "scouting better" and "changing positions" and acting like we can go out and physically test and evaluate these kids like it's 1998 all over again. ****, I would have been in favor of recruiting Atwell more for his leadership and character, but until you just posted that article, nobody even talked about those attributes, it was all about "he's fast" and "he can change directions".

But, yeah, people are going to keep yapping about "the past 20 years". How did Manny's second-year staff do this year? Did we recruit SoFla harder? Did we take some hidden gems who aren't scouting-service blue-chippers? Did we really miss out on any great SoFla talent (outside of Jason Marshall)? Does anyone currently think that we signed any overrated "slop"?

Then it's time to shut the fvck up about TuTu Atwell and the mistakes of the Richt staff.