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Mario Cristobal: "If you can't identify and recruit, your value to a program is very little."

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bobbydigius said:
We had 50% more NFL players on defense than the next closest team during that stretch not one player. I’m not dug in on my position, if you want to dig deeper to disprove my statement, I’m here for it. I started saying we had more talent than the teams relative to our schedule, I then used No D as an example of having such talent and underperforming. I then said recruiting ranking wise we were better than our division rivals, and then showed that on the way out the NFL draft confirmed that.

Now there is a second part to this and that is development. That’s coaching, this notion that players were always going to be what they ended up to be is absurd. So Golden recruited at a top 10ish level in 12-14. His development was not top 10 yet the talent he amassed, once again relative to our schedule was still better than our peers and yet we still underperformed.
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I think that you're grossly oversimplifying the analysis of roster talent by focusing so much on the draft and recruiting rankings. For example, Marquise Williams was a three-star high school QB who went undrafted. But he was the leader of one of the top-scoring offenses in the conference. Same with Anthony Boone, Bryn Renner, Justin Thomas. Those dudes weren't drafted, but they were talented, difference-making college players.

Now look at our recruiting classes that were supposedly more talented. Jalen Grimble, 4-star with offers from everyone. Dallas Crawford, 4-star, meh. Kevin Grooms, 4-star, never made it. Jelani Hamilton, 4-star, yawn. Malcolm Lewis, 4-star, 200 yards as a senior. Now, if those guys had gone on to do great things somewhere else, you could blame the Miami staff. But it became obvious that their star rankings were overblown.

By the way, Cam Ward had zero stars and got to choose between Incarnate Word and Texas Southern.
 
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TaylorWalls said:
I think that you're grossly oversimplifying the analysis of roster talent by focusing so much on the draft and recruiting rankings. For example, Marquise Williams was a three-star high school QB who went undrafted. But he was the leader of one of the top-scoring offenses in the conference. Same with Anthony Boone, Bryn Renner, Justin Thomas. Those dudes weren't drafted, but they were talented, difference-making college players.

Now look at our recruiting classes that were supposedly more talented. Jalen Grimble, 4-star with offers from everyone. Dallas Crawford, 4-star, meh. Kevin Grooms, 4-star, never made it. Jelani Hamilton, 4-star, yawn. Malcolm Lewis, 4-star, 200 yards as a senior. Now, if those guys had gone on to do great things somewhere else, you could blame the Miami staff. But it became obvious that their star rankings were overblown.

By the way, Cam Ward had zero stars and got to choose between Incarnate Word and Texas Southern.
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The star system while flawed, in the aggregate has been proven to track. There has been a plethora of threads outlining that. Some recruits hit and some bust, but statistically the likely hood of a 4 and 5 star to be impact players and have NFL potential is much higher.

Miami has had a coaching problem for two decades as it pertains to it being a competent program. It has had a talent problem as it pertains to being elite. The best coaching without that talent would not have been elite but once again we have been a middling ACC team and have completely underperformed.
 
bobbydigius said:
The star system while flawed, in the aggregate has been proven to track. There has been a plethora of threads outlining that. Some recruits hit and some bust, but statistically the likely hood of a 4 and 5 star to be impact players and have NFL potential is much higher.

Miami has had a coaching problem for two decades as it pertains to it being a competent program. It has had a talent problem as it pertains to being elite. The best coaching without that talent would not have been elite but once again we have been a middling ACC team and have completely underperformed.
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"The star system while flawed, in the aggregate has been proven to track."
In the long-run over 130 programs, yes. But a claim like that doesn't apply to one program in a small sample size. Our recruiting classes during that span prove it. Now, did our staff whiff in recruiting? Absolutely. They fell for the South Florida thing.

"Miami has had a coaching problem for two decades as it pertains to it being a competent program."
We agree on this, but for different reasons. I think the failures have been in recruiting, the same way we have failed in baseball recruiting. I think Al Golden knows football and I think Gino DiMare knows baseball. But they had no feel for the ability to find true players. And like I wrote earlier in the thread, the fact that a 5-7 neanderthal is 10-1 two years later proves that it's all about the players.
 
TaylorWalls said:
"The star system while flawed, in the aggregate has been proven to track."
In the long-run over 130 programs, yes. But a claim like that doesn't apply to one program in a small sample size. Our recruiting classes during that span prove it. Now, did our staff whiff in recruiting? Absolutely. They fell for the South Florida thing.

"Miami has had a coaching problem for two decades as it pertains to it being a competent program."
We agree on this, but for different reasons. I think the failures have been in recruiting, the same way we have failed in baseball recruiting. I think Al Golden knows football and I think Gino DiMare knows baseball. But they had no feel for the ability to find true players. And like I wrote earlier in the thread, the fact that a 5-7 neanderthal is 10-1 two years later proves that it's all about the players.
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Nothing of the sort was proven in your 1st point, absolutely nothing. The star system has shown that you must recruit at the top 10ish level to win a title. The evidence says Miami should have won at a higher clip. Being an outlier is not proof.

Now in terms of Golden, he had a ton more players drafted later. Mark Richt took his 2013-2015 classes and turned them into a 2 year stretch where we won out only bowl game since 06 and our only 10 win season between 05 and this year. Same Golden recruiting but something changed, coaching.
 
bobbydigius said:
Nothing of the sort was proven in your 1st point, absolutely nothing. The star system has shown that you must recruit at the top 10ish level to win a title. The evidence says Miami should have won at a higher clip. Being an outlier is not proof.

Now in terms of Golden, he had a ton more players drafted later. Mark Richt took his 2013-2015 classes and turned them into a 2 year stretch where we won out only bowl game since 06 and our only 10 win season between 05 and this year. Same Golden recruiting but something changed, coaching.
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"Nothing of the sort was proven in your 1st point, absolutely nothing. The star system has shown that you must recruit at the top 10ish level to win a title. The evidence says Miami should have won at a higher clip. Being an outlier is not proof."

See, you're assuming that our four-star players were just like all other four-star players. They were four-stars, therefore they were elite players. That is certainly a choice. I like to think I can look a little deeper than "4-stars, bro". Our 4-stars during that time frame were not good players.

And you absolutely ignored the fact that non-elite recruits were gamechangers for those other teams that were beating us.

"Same Golden recruiting but something changed, coaching."

No, not "same Golden recruiting". They were different players than the ones Golden lost with.

Any comment on our 5-7 coach going 10-1? Same guy.
 
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Sometimes this doesn't work: like in Atlanta against Tech.

But on the average, against 90% of the teams out there, being a trench bully and developing your talent will get you to the Promised Land as much as anything else.

That was the core of what Saban did at Alabama. That's what Cristobal learned from him.
 
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