Hoping For a Miraculous Turnaround on D in 2014

[Fzac75]

My hope is that Valid you are correct. If we go by history of what occurred at Temple, they made the jump to being a good defense in year 4, as it is for us.

Couple of things, some of which is from my own conclusion based on my experiences and understanding and historical perspective, as well as from people who actually played the game, people who actually played it for some time at the highest level, not fools like myself and the rest here included who are wannabe gm's and coaches and don't have the actual experience of the variables and knowledge of schemes or playing or coaching at the highest level,

First off, I preface this by saying all college coaches are used car salesmen, all college coaches BS, college recruiting is dirty, I know for a fact of college recruiting is dirty, and no I will not name names, due to the fact that it potentially hurts the players I know of and more importantly, shine the light on one school and the others, including ones we love or like can get caught up. It's a dirty game and money flies around. Secondly after hearing from so many great coaches, yes put me in the corner of talent makes great coaches first, talent trumps all, 9 times out of 10 the more talented team wins.

Finally, yes I do believe we have a good coach in Golden, I do believe he can restock this team with talent and produce a consistent top level program, and I did give him plenty of "slack" these last 3 years for a variety of factual and logical reasons. But those facts and logic gave him until this year, now those things are gone, this roster is totally his for the most part now, and now is when my demand of improved quality of play and judgement on the philosophy on defense is valid and fair.

Their is room for fair critique of the defense, the philosophy and bend don't break style, first, I believe Golden to be a good not great coach, great coaches adjust their scheme to the talent at their disposal, whereas Golden does not. Doesn't make him bad, doesn't make him great either. But what he is attempting to do is to turnover this team until the roster is built and fostered so that the players develop into his scheme. It is a long process, and yes I get how tiring it is to hear it, but this aspect is true. In the meantime what you get is 3 years of the crap we have seen, that has only been exacerbated by the fact of the NCAA fiasco and the horrific recruiting of Radio. It is why we have also played this bend don't break style, which I have seen other of the so called "genius" coaches play when the talent is not up to par. I am not a fan of it, but I understand, but if this what we will continue to see next year, then this is not an issue of play calling just to play it safe because the talent is not there, this is then the Tom Olivadotti mentality, for those who remember, where regardless of the talent, like a lot of coaches who know and understand the game, but when the heat is on coaches "scared not to lose" instead of "trying to win" mentality, and if that is the case, WHICH NOBODY HERE KNOWS, then yes dump them all.

As for this the develop players into this scheme, I have heard from former players, that this system Golden is implementing works, but it takes years for it to work in the college game, it's an upperclassmen defense, because of the mental and experience aspect once they grasp that is when they play faster and less thinking, due to mental recognition being faster. No this is not from Golden slurping, this I have heard from former NFL players who played defense, including former gayturd Channing Crowder here locally, say the same thing.

So now it is year 4, the underclassmen, who we all have seen are better and more talented than what was here before, have been groomed and have gained experience, we have two full classes that are sophomores and Juniors, sprinkled in with some solid to good Seniors on defense in DP, Chick, Pierre & Gunter from the first class which was a cluster frick to get together his first year, and yes I know Gunter was part of his 2nd class. This year there is no excuses, this year there should be improvement, and more importantly a change in philosophy as far as aggression in the playcalling and scheme. If not, I will be very disappointed, sadly eat crow, and ride shotgun on the bandwagon to dump them. Hopefully history repeats itself statistically as it did for him in Temple, if it does here we can expect very good things

Off topic but just out of curiosity, how many punches to the face do you usually take before you realize you're in a fight?

 

[The Franchise]

Blaming all those players who are leaving is odd because if they were that bad, and the guys who were behind them were so much better, then the guys behind them would have been playing in 2013. The departing players should have never seen the field if the guys behind them were so much better. And if we're relying on the freshmans coming in this year to make us better, then God help us.

 

[CaneAlmighty]

Blaming all those players who are leaving is odd because if they were that bad, and the guys who were behind them were so much better, then the guys behind them would have been playing in 2013. The departing players should have never seen the field if the guys behind them were so much better. And if we're relying on the freshmans coming in this year to make us better, then God help us.

The guys behind them are better and more talented. Just no ready to play due to not understanding the defense.
Plus Golden played the seniors out loyalty to them at the expense the playing probaby the better players. And in some case the younger players like AQM and McCord weren't physically ready to play a full time role.

 

[rok]

This is what the depth chart would've looked like without seniors. Guys in bold are in their first or second year here (many of whom played quite a bit)

DE McCord/AQM
DT Pierre/Hamilton
DT Moore/King
DE Chickillo/Kamalu

LB Armbrister/Figueroa
LB Kirby/Blue
LB Perryman/Grace

CB Gunter/Crawford
SS Bush/Fentress
FS Jenkins/Carter
CB Howard/Burns

If the seniors hadn't been allowed to play then 73% of the 2-deep would've been guys who just arrived here.

We've seen a lot of these guys make plays over the last couple seasons. Now that most of them have been are entering their 3rd and 4th years I think we should see some improvement.

 

[Coach Macho]

Any defense that takes 2+ years to understand and/or play in is NOT a good defense IMO.

Everybody optimistic about this new influx of talent we have coming in but they're failing to realize that they won't be able to contribute right away.

Even if we improve 40 spots next year we'll still suck. It's THAT bad.

 

[rok]

Compare FSU's stud seniors with ours:

Jones - Shayon
Smith - Gaines
Joyner - Rodgers
Brooks - Highsmith
Jernigan - Porter
McAllister - Robinson
McDaniels - Renfrow
Hicks - Cornelius

They also have some very talented young guys, and so do we. Our coaching/scheme needs to improve dramatically but we'll look better by default because of an abundance of experienced, talented players.

 

[rok]

cityboy,

We saw McCord, Bush, Howard, Kirby, Moore, Hamilton, Jenkins contribute here as freshmen. Why shouldn't we expect the same from Thomas, Moten, Harris, Smith, Hester?

 

[theibisrules]

Hoping For a Miraculous Turnaround on D in 2014

**** I was hoping to hit the $639 Million Dollar lottery...didn't happen homie

 

[hoover437]

Blaming all those players who are leaving is odd because if they were that bad, and the guys who were behind them were so much better, then the guys behind them would have been playing in 2013. The departing players should have never seen the field if the guys behind them were so much better. And if we're relying on the freshmans coming in this year to make us better, then God help us.

do you think jamies was not better than the guy at fsu last year?

 

[HCanes]

Hope is not a plan

 

[Coach Macho]

cityboy,

We saw McCord, Bush, Howard, Kirby, Moore, Hamilton, Jenkins contribute here as freshmen. Why shouldn't we expect the same from Thomas, Moten, Harris, Smith, Hester?

McCord - 2nd year here and still can only play on 3rd downs.
Bush - Safety. Easy to contribute early there.
Howard - Corner. Same thing.
Kirby - Barely played this season, certainly didn't have an impact his freshman year.
Moore - What did he do his freshman year?
Hamilton - See Moore.
Jenkins - See Bush.

The above guys really haven't done jack **** since they been here except Howard and Jenkins, who still screws up more than he makes plays. Bush was **** near MIA this season but I'll give him a pass. McCord is good for a sack every now and then but other than that he's useless. He gets bullied on running plays.

Thomas is gonna have to sit behind McCord and AQM as a situational pass rusher unless he shows that he's got enough lead in his pencil to play on 1st and 2nd downs. Moten is gonna have to learn how to 2-gap against 21-22 year old offensive linemen. Harris, see Thomas. Smith, same thing. Hester has a chance to contribute in the same way that Bush did his Freshman year.

None of this matters though, cause the most important position in the 3-4 is the HARDEST position to find early contributors. We need impact D-linemen like yesterday! And with what we're asking our D-linemen to do, it's very hard for Freshman to contribute.

 

[The Franchise]

Blaming all those players who are leaving is odd because if they were that bad, and the guys who were behind them were so much better, then the guys behind them would have been playing in 2013. The departing players should have never seen the field if the guys behind them were so much better. And if we're relying on the freshmans coming in this year to make us better, then God help us.

do you think jamies was not better than the guy at fsu last year?

Yep because using a Heisman trophy winning QB is a great example.

 

[The Franchise]

Take a look at a dude like AQM. An ultra-talented guy with insane physical ability. I don't think anyone coming in this year has his raw natural ability on the DL. What did he do last year? Absolutely nothing. To expect guys who aren't as gifted as him to come in here and make a bunch of plays and improve this defense is laughable.

Face it. Al's been here 3 years, and he still couldn't get Shannon's guys off the field as bad as everyone thinks they were. 3 fugging years.

 

[eliteproxy]

question..

this brick by brick thing... what happens when some of these brick we put up are all jacked up... do we tear down the whole wall and start again or surgically remove that one brick (Dorrito) and replace it with a better one?

 

[Geo305]

Some of you are clueless and don't understand football for your life. Seriously. Do you see what we had on the field? Garbage upperclassmen, guys who shouldn't have even been here. Do you realize that not every underclass men will be ready to play physically and mentally in the first year to two years. Their not just gonna walk in and play right away sometimes, theirs a thing called learning a defense, bulking up and the game slowing down, and being mentally and physically ready. It doesn't mean these kids are worse players, the young guys were highly regarded for a reason. I guess you all just play NCAA football 14 and think that's how it is in real life football.If you do notice. The guys who make plays are underclassmen and only a handful of upperclassmen. This team will finally be junior deep this season, Duke, Tracy and Deons class aka 2012. Good to great players from juniors to freshman on the team this year. This team will not be back and competing the way you all expect it, Till it's filled top to bottom. Their will be improvement this year coming up. But the perfection, no holes, no glaring weakness. Wait till after the 2015 class. That's called depth. We don't have true depth yet. Some of you really don't use your brain. This is not Xbox. It's called real life and that's the way it works at any program. From top to bottom. Till Dukes class is seniors. We are not going to be in a national championship hunt. Yes we can win the acc coastal next year. Their will be improvement everywhere on this team. But that national title hunt we are all so used to. From seniors to freshman filled. We are only junior to freshman deep with only a handful of seniors. After the 2015 class and season. We will revisit this.

Some of you don't understand football at all, literally clueless.

 

[Coach Macho]

Some of you are clueless and don't understand football for your life. Seriously. Do you see what we had on the field? Garbage upperclassmen, guys who shouldn't have even been here. Do you realize that not every underclass men will be ready to play physically and mentally in the first year to two years. Their not just gonna walk in and play right away sometimes, theirs a thing called learning a defense, bulking up and the game slowing down, and being mentally and physically ready. It doesn't mean these kids are worse players, the young guys were highly regarded for a reason. I guess you all just play NCAA football 14 and think that's how it is in real life football.If you do notice. The guys who make plays are underclassmen and only a handful of upperclassmen. This team will finally be junior deep this season, Duke, Tracy and Deons class aka 2012. Good to great players from juniors to freshman on the team this year. This team will not be back and competing the way you all expect it, Till it's filled top to bottom. Their will be improvement this year coming up. But the perfection, no holes, no glaring weakness. Wait till after the 2015 class. That's called depth. We don't have true depth yet. Some of you really don't use your brain. This is not Xbox. It's called real life and that's the way it works at any program. From top to bottom. Till Dukes class is seniors. We are not going to be in a national championship hunt. Yes we can win the acc coastal next year. Their will be improvement everywhere on this team. But that national title hunt we are all so used to. From seniors to freshman filled. We are only junior to freshman deep with only a handful of seniors. After the 2015 class and season. We will revisit this.

Some of you don't understand football at all, literally clueless.

Calm down Turbo. Nobody is debating whether we need depth or not. We know we need depth.

The issue is that, in this particular defense, it takes longer for kids to contribute on a regular basis. It's got a high learning curve. It's complex. Obviously too complex for our kids because even our upperclassmen are clueless out there at times. It also asks alot of the kids physically. (i.e. 2-gapping)

We'll revisit this after 2015?! WTF?! I gotta wait that long for us to field a useless defense? If it takes that long to field a decent defense, then guess what, IT'S NOT A GOOD DEFENSIVE SCHEME.

(not making this a Shannon vs. Golden thing but...) When Shannon was here and our defense lacked legit talent and/or was young, we fell to the low 20's to low 30's in total defense. ****, we only WISH we had a defense that "bad" these days.

The last regime's worst defense is still roughly 40 spots better than this regime's best defense thus far.

How anybody can think that that doesn't fall on coaching is beyond me.

 

[Geo305]

I don't know if you read carefully what I posted. You basically repeated what I said. I said that there will be improvement next season but this perfection people want. It will take time. These young guns have to learn. Their is certainly more talented players not playing yet. Happens all over the country. They have to be ready. Mentally, physically and god **** emotionally.

I'll say it again. Don't be expecting this team as a whole to be near perfect till the 2015 season. Doesn't mean their won't be improvements next season. But this team needs to be filled from the senior class to freshman. And at this moment going into next season. It's juniors to freshman with a handful, VERY few, seniors that are good or great players. I'll say it again. 2015. Look at Bama, FSU, etc. top to bottom. We are not there yet. Close, but no cigar. Their will be improvement, but don't expect an overnight change. That drastic change to a top 10-20 Defense in nation not coming for another year. Be realistic.

 

[hoover437]

cityboy,

We saw McCord, Bush, Howard, Kirby, Moore, Hamilton, Jenkins contribute here as freshmen. Why shouldn't we expect the same from Thomas, Moten, Harris, Smith, Hester?

McCord - 2nd year here and still can only play on 3rd downs.
Bush - Safety. Easy to contribute early there.
Howard - Corner. Same thing.
Kirby - Barely played this season, certainly didn't have an impact his freshman year.
Moore - What did he do his freshman year?
Hamilton - See Moore.
Jenkins - See Bush.

The above guys really haven't done jack **** since they been here except Howard and Jenkins, who still screws up more than he makes plays. Bush was **** near MIA this season but I'll give him a pass. McCord is good for a sack every now and then but other than that he's useless. He gets bullied on running plays.

Thomas is gonna have to sit behind McCord and AQM as a situational pass rusher unless he shows that he's got enough lead in his pencil to play on 1st and 2nd downs. Moten is gonna have to learn how to 2-gap against 21-22 year old offensive linemen. Harris, see Thomas. Smith, same thing. Hester has a chance to contribute in the same way that Bush did his Freshman year.

None of this matters though, cause the most important position in the 3-4 is the HARDEST position to find early contributors. We need impact D-linemen like yesterday! And with what we're asking our D-linemen to do, it's very hard for Freshman to contribute.

Totally agree with this, I just believe that we will get more from this class because they will have more in front of them. They will not have to do much, if the juco's come and the older guys continue to develop, toes crossed!!

 

[Hobokane]

I don't think it matters what we bring in talent wise-- the scheme itself, the coordinator, and the HC who both refuse to change it-- don't seem to have the ability to coach-up good or average players. Two years in a row at the bottom of the ACC and all of Division I-- its more than just a lack of experienced guys, or depth.

Even Randy Shannon, who supposedly couldn't recruit had enormously better defensive statistics-- we've never been this bad have we? Why is this?

I say b/c the scheme is ineffective, and the coaching is equally so. Bring in 4 & 5 star recruits, have them play patty cake on the line, play DBs 8-10 yards off the receiver, you may possibly get improved stats, but you still aren't gonna have a high caliber defense. Penetration, disrupting the flow of the offense, tackles for loss-- pressure on QB, not consistently giving up 1st downs, allowing them to convert 3rd down drive after drive.

A attacking defense protects your secondary. As bad as ours has been, they need a lot of protection. Not going to change much this season, and probably not next.

 

[niner]

We ALL like MSU D right. Just for comparison:

As you look into the path they took to get to a top defense and a top team, I see a lot of similarities with Golden/D'No. Dantonio/Narduzzi were together at Cincy (CUSA) for 3 years, record was 18-17. In those 3 years, avg PA/G: 25.9. Went to MSU together, first 3 years, avg PA/G 25.0, record was 22-17 (2 extra losses - bowls). Sound familiar? MSU PA/G: 2010 (Year 4 at MSU) : 22.3 2011 : 18.4 2012 : 16.3 2013 : 13.2 This is what I hope for (but a little faster than 7 years in) Si o no?