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MEGA Frenk Out - Who Next?

Sadly this thread has devolved into a political quagmire. I’m actually not one who opposes talking politics, but talking politics requires decency and restraint (ie sticking to the substance and not straying into personal attacks or gisch gallop arguments)… which are not overly abundant in our society let alone on a message board.

Donna Shalala is a flawed human being and was a flawed president. But she also left the university (as a whole) FAR better than she found it.

She was clueless about athletics (she wanted to win but didn’t know how to facilitate a winning AD and didn’t want to spend the money necessary to do so) and badly mismanaged UHealth.

But she also dramatically improved the standing of the university and was actually a fairly effective administrator.

Every person that has been named - from Condoleezza Rice on down - is a flawed human being who would leave something to criticize from their tenure as president of the U if they were given the role.

But lord help us that we are talking about picking a university president almost solely through the lens of partisan politics.

We would all be wise to heed the warnings of Washington and Madison on the dangers of factions. The evidence is all around us.
 

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AmherstCane said:
Sadly this thread has devolved into a political quagmire. I’m actually not one who opposes talking politics, but talking politics requires decency and restraint (ie sticking to the substance and not straying into personal attacks or gisch gallop arguments)… which are not overly abundant in our society let alone on a message board.

Donna Shalala is a flawed human being and was a flawed president. But she also left the university (as a whole) FAR better than she found it.

She was clueless about athletics (she wanted to win but didn’t know how to facilitate a winning AD and didn’t want to spend the money necessary to do so) and badly mismanaged UHealth.

But she also dramatically improved the standing of the university and was actually a fairly effective administrator.

Every person that has been named - from Condoleezza Rice on down - is a flawed human being who would leave something to criticize from their tenure as president of the U if they were given the role.

But lord help us that we are talking about picking a university president almost solely through the lens of partisan politics.

We would all be wise to heed the warnings of Washington and Madison on the dangers of factions. The evidence is all around us.
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We're over here talking about donuts and micro mini skirts. Come join the party, not the political party!
 
I’m sorry if this was covered already, but for those of us who may or may not have a daughter going into UM Law school in the Fall - what did Frenk do to harm the program? Or maybe just - What are the issues leading those of you who seem to be in the know, to say that the Law school is in shambles?
 
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UnForgiven said:
I’m sorry if this was covered already, but for those of us who may or may not have a daughter going into UM Law school in the Fall - what did Frenk do to harm the program? Or maybe just - What are the issues leading those of you who seem to be in the know, to say that the Law school is in shambles?
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Law school is not in shambles… but current leadership leaves a lot to be desired. The school has such a rich history (not so much on a ranking basis but the school has had some real rock star faculty members and put out paradigm-shifting lawyers).

Your daughter will get out of law school what she puts into it (also a lot of great lawyers were mediocre law students)… I wouldn’t be concerned with message board talk but tell her to kick butt and work to make the law school an even better place. Ultimately the school is just a reflection of the students and teachers.
 
UnForgiven said:
I’m sorry if this was covered already, but for those of us who may or may not have a daughter going into UM Law school in the Fall - what did Frenk do to harm the program? Or maybe just - What are the issues leading those of you who seem to be in the know, to say that the Law school is in shambles?
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The great @Wake_Cane can give you the up-to-date info on what is going on today. He works closely with the Interim Dean, who may very well end up being the permanent Dean of the Law School.

As an alum (1996) I can tell you that the Law School has long suffered from Professor Irwin P. Stotzky and his misguided devotion to teaching "Elements of the Law", the single most useless class that any UM Law Student will ever take. And while that professor and that class are not the sole downfall of UM Law, they are emblematic of an outdated curriculum that does not serve the students well, either in curriculum preparation for their careers or in the passing of the bar exam. Quite literally, "Elements" will be 3.4% of your credit hours at UM Law, and the class is a waste. Miami is the LAST law school in the country that still teaches "Elements" as a first-year required course.

In short, the UM Law curriculum needs to be updated, and Frenk was the last person in the world to know ANYTHING about that. If he had hired a "law" version of Joe Echevarria to investigate and modernize the Law School, he could have accomplished something. Instead, he continued to clash with multiple Law School Deans and harass them about fund-raising. And while fund-raising is NOT UNIMPORTANT, it's not the real problem.

The second big issue that is more directly Frenk's fault is his constant "pushing out" or outright firing of Law School Deans. Even if there are valid areas for improvement, on Frenk's watch we have cycled through multiple Law School Deans. Regardless of anything substantive, Frenk has created a chaotic situation where anyone looking at the Law School from the outside cannot possibly form a positive impression as to its direction and leadership. At least if you were evaluating a Med School or a hospital or a doctor, there is an element of life-death success that could be measured. Law schools rely heavily on reputational factors and word-of-mouth, and so if people begin to speak poorly of UM Law, it becomes difficult to overcome.

I hope that a new UM President and a new Law School Dean will be able to make headway soon. It's still a good school with good faculty, but we need to update a bunch of things and start improving our name in the legal world.
 
TheOriginalCane said:
The great @Wake_Cane can give you the up-to-date info on what is going on today. He works closely with the Interim Dean, who may very well end up being the permanent Dean of the Law School.

As an alum (1996) I can tell you that the Law School has long suffered from Professor Irwin P. Stotzky and his misguided devotion to teaching "Elements of the Law", the single most useless class that any UM Law Student will ever take. And while that professor and that class are not the sole downfall of UM Law, they are emblematic of an outdated curriculum that does not serve the students well, either in curriculum preparation for their careers or in the passing of the bar exam. Quite literally, "Elements" will be 3.4% of your credit hours at UM Law, and the class is a waste. Miami is the LAST law school in the country that still teaches "Elements" as a first-year required course.

In short, the UM Law curriculum needs to be updated, and Frenk was the last person in the world to know ANYTHING about that. If he had hired a "law" version of Joe Echevarria to investigate and modernize the Law School, he could have accomplished something. Instead, he continued to clash with multiple Law School Deans and harass them about fund-raising. And while fund-raising is NOT UNIMPORTANT, it's not the real problem.

The second big issue that is more directly Frenk's fault is his constant "pushing out" or outright firing of Law School Deans. Even if there are valid areas for improvement, on Frenk's watch we have cycled through multiple Law School Deans. Regardless of anything substantive, Frenk has created a chaotic situation where anyone looking at the Law School from the outside cannot possibly form a positive impression as to its direction and leadership. At least if you were evaluating a Med School or a hospital or a doctor, there is an element of life-death success that could be measured. Law schools rely heavily on reputational factors and word-of-mouth, and so if people begin to speak poorly of UM Law, it becomes difficult to overcome.

I hope that a new UM President and a new Law School Dean will be able to make headway soon. It's still a good school with good faculty, but we need to update a bunch of things and start improving our name in the legal world.
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Thank you for a comprehensive overview, very helpful and I appreciate it. Nothing to be too alarmed about so long as they make effort to address it.
 
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TheOriginalCane said:
The great @Wake_Cane can give you the up-to-date info on what is going on today. He works closely with the Interim Dean, who may very well end up being the permanent Dean of the Law School.

As an alum (1996) I can tell you that the Law School has long suffered from Professor Irwin P. Stotzky and his misguided devotion to teaching "Elements of the Law", the single most useless class that any UM Law Student will ever take. And while that professor and that class are not the sole downfall of UM Law, they are emblematic of an outdated curriculum that does not serve the students well, either in curriculum preparation for their careers or in the passing of the bar exam. Quite literally, "Elements" will be 3.4% of your credit hours at UM Law, and the class is a waste. Miami is the LAST law school in the country that still teaches "Elements" as a first-year required course.

In short, the UM Law curriculum needs to be updated, and Frenk was the last person in the world to know ANYTHING about that. If he had hired a "law" version of Joe Echevarria to investigate and modernize the Law School, he could have accomplished something. Instead, he continued to clash with multiple Law School Deans and harass them about fund-raising. And while fund-raising is NOT UNIMPORTANT, it's not the real problem.

The second big issue that is more directly Frenk's fault is his constant "pushing out" or outright firing of Law School Deans. Even if there are valid areas for improvement, on Frenk's watch we have cycled through multiple Law School Deans. Regardless of anything substantive, Frenk has created a chaotic situation where anyone looking at the Law School from the outside cannot possibly form a positive impression as to its direction and leadership. At least if you were evaluating a Med School or a hospital or a doctor, there is an element of life-death success that could be measured. Law schools rely heavily on reputational factors and word-of-mouth, and so if people begin to speak poorly of UM Law, it becomes difficult to overcome.

I hope that a new UM President and a new Law School Dean will be able to make headway soon. It's still a good school with good faculty, but we need to update a bunch of things and start improving our name in the legal world.
Click to expand...
I hereby nominate the honorable TOC, JD as the next dean of the University of Miami School of Law.
 
TheOriginalCane said:
The great @Wake_Cane can give you the up-to-date info on what is going on today. He works closely with the Interim Dean, who may very well end up being the permanent Dean of the Law School.

As an alum (1996) I can tell you that the Law School has long suffered from Professor Irwin P. Stotzky and his misguided devotion to teaching "Elements of the Law", the single most useless class that any UM Law Student will ever take. And while that professor and that class are not the sole downfall of UM Law, they are emblematic of an outdated curriculum that does not serve the students well, either in curriculum preparation for their careers or in the passing of the bar exam. Quite literally, "Elements" will be 3.4% of your credit hours at UM Law, and the class is a waste. Miami is the LAST law school in the country that still teaches "Elements" as a first-year required course.

In short, the UM Law curriculum needs to be updated, and Frenk was the last person in the world to know ANYTHING about that. If he had hired a "law" version of Joe Echevarria to investigate and modernize the Law School, he could have accomplished something. Instead, he continued to clash with multiple Law School Deans and harass them about fund-raising. And while fund-raising is NOT UNIMPORTANT, it's not the real problem.

The second big issue that is more directly Frenk's fault is his constant "pushing out" or outright firing of Law School Deans. Even if there are valid areas for improvement, on Frenk's watch we have cycled through multiple Law School Deans. Regardless of anything substantive, Frenk has created a chaotic situation where anyone looking at the Law School from the outside cannot possibly form a positive impression as to its direction and leadership. At least if you were evaluating a Med School or a hospital or a doctor, there is an element of life-death success that could be measured. Law schools rely heavily on reputational factors and word-of-mouth, and so if people begin to speak poorly of UM Law, it becomes difficult to overcome.

I hope that a new UM President and a new Law School Dean will be able to make headway soon. It's still a good school with good faculty, but we need to update a bunch of things and start improving our name in the legal world.
Click to expand...

Elements was my worst grade in law school and my least favorite class (and Stotzky my least favorite professor)… but I always just attributed that to a lack of motivation/investment on my part. I was actually going to write this reply to disagree with you… but I don’t know that I can cogently rebut the first part of your post. He was held in such reverence that I just accepted that I was the problem.

The law school needs a dynamic Dean… and while I don’t stay as connected as I should, my sense is that the Dean’s office has been occupied by warm bodies more than dynamic and innovative leaders.
 
AmherstCane said:
Elements was my worst grade in law school and my least favorite class (and Stotzky my least favorite professor)… but I always just attributed that to a lack of motivation/investment on my part. I was actually going to write this reply to disagree with you… but I don’t know that I can cogently rebut the first part of your post. He was held in such reverence that I just accepted that I was the problem.

The law school needs a dynamic Dean… and while I don’t stay as connected as I should, my sense is that the Dean’s office has been occupied by warm bodies more than dynamic and innovative leaders.
Click to expand...


I will say this as simply as possible, I do not think that you were the problem at all.

The sheer amount of time that Stotzky wastss on ONE case (Butler v. Wolf Sussman) is a crime. He just noodles on and on and on about **** that doesn't move the needle in life or in practice.

I'm sure it's an excellent class if you want to be a law school professor, but for everyone else it's just not worth it.

It's hard to "invest" in a class that will never be on the bar exam and that will never be an area of practice. It was all just mental *********ion, and Stotzky jizzed in our faces.
 
TheOriginalCane said:
I will say this as simply as possible, I do not think that you were the problem at all.

The sheer amount of time that Stotzky wastss on ONE case (Butler v. Wolf Sussman) is a crime. He just noodles on and on and on about **** that doesn't move the needle in life or in practice.

I'm sure it's an excellent class if you want to be a law school professor, but for everyone else it's just not worth it.

It's hard to "invest" in a class that will never be on the bar exam and that will never be an area of practice. It was all just mental *********ion, and Stotzky jizzed in our faces.
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After our elements exam, a group of us burned our copies of the Bramblebush in a bonfire.
 
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TheOriginalCane said:
I will say this as simply as possible, I do not think that you were the problem at all.

The sheer amount of time that Stotzky wastss on ONE case (Butler v. Wolf Sussman) is a crime. He just noodles on and on and on about **** that doesn't move the needle in life or in practice.

I'm sure it's an excellent class if you want to be a law school professor, but for everyone else it's just not worth it.

It's hard to "invest" in a class that will never be on the bar exam and that will never be an area of practice. It was all just mental *********ion, and Stotzky jizzed in our faces.
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To circle back, these examples are precisely why there needs to be some non-academians in the leadership council. I didn’t go to law school, nor have I encountered Stotzky; but teaching things in (expensive) classes that have no bearing on real world application is precisely the sort of out-of-touch that leads to problems.
Just my opinion. That you didn’t ask for.
 
TheOriginalCane said:
I saved all of my first year textbooks EXCEPT Elements.

Glad to see that this is a long, proud tradition at UM Law...
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In any case, Miami’s legal market is both changing and booming. Hopefully Miami can right the ship, leverage the city becoming a big legal market, improve its reputation, and allow for its students and alumnae to have that reputation reflected on their resumes to take advantage of the job opportunities.
 
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AmherstCane said:
Elements was my worst grade in law school and my least favorite class (and Stotzky my least favorite professor)… but I always just attributed that to a lack of motivation/investment on my part. I was actually going to write this reply to disagree with you… but I don’t know that I can cogently rebut the first part of your post. He was held in such reverence that I just accepted that I was the problem.

The law school needs a dynamic Dean… and while I don’t stay as connected as I should, my sense is that the Dean’s office has been occupied by warm bodies more than dynamic and innovative leaders.
Click to expand...
Yes, the Dean's office has been occupied by "Leaders" instead of LEADERS. I barely remember who was the Dean back when I was there, all I know is that she annoyed the living **** out of me when she spoke to us at orientation. The law school has fallen into a malaise, and from my classmates that are still active on campus, it seems to be a deep seated issue.
 
AmherstCane said:
Elements was my worst grade in law school and my least favorite class (and Stotzky my least favorite professor)… but I always just attributed that to a lack of motivation/investment on my part. I was actually going to write this reply to disagree with you… but I don’t know that I can cogently rebut the first part of your post. He was held in such reverence that I just accepted that I was the problem.

The law school needs a dynamic Dean… and while I don’t stay as connected as I should, my sense is that the Dean’s office has been occupied by warm bodies more than dynamic and innovative leaders.
Click to expand...
elements is perhaps the best example of how ivory tower legends know nothing about the real world. a purely theoretical class given to brand new students who know barely anything about the law.

so it wasn't your fault.

with professors like Frank Valdes, the law school can never be taken seriously again. Hausler and Soia Mentschikoff are turning in their graves
 
rsa coral gables said:
elements is perhaps the best example of how ivory tower legends know nothing about the real world. a purely theoretical class given to brand new students who know barely anything about the law.

so it wasn't your fault.

with professors like Frank Valdes, the law school can never be taken seriously again. Hausler and Soia Mentschikoff are turning in their graves
Click to expand...


I will say this.

There aren't many other schools or degrees where you can pick almost any class you want after your first year. I don't know who this Frank Valdes character is, I'm fairly certain he is newer and was not on faculty during OUR time at the law school, but it is fairly easy to avoid certain professors for two years.

I've never been that worried about the opinions of the professors, because I felt that it was good preparation for legal life, where you might encounter judges who lean left or right.

****, I was a Dean's Fellow (kinda like a teaching assistant, I think they started the program the year after you graduated) for good old D. Marvin Jones. As I used to tell people, on a Jones exam "the criminal always goes free". **** your feelings, just issue-spot the way that Jones wants you to issue-spot. Get that A and move on with your life.

Express your opinions in a voting booth.
 
TheOriginalCane said:
I will say this.

There aren't many other schools or degrees where you can pick almost any class you want after your first year. I don't know who this Frank Valdes character is, I'm fairly certain he is newer and was not on faculty during OUR time at the law school, but it is fairly easy to avoid certain professors for two years.

I've never been that worried about the opinions of the professors, because I felt that it was good preparation for legal life, where you might encounter judges who lean left or right.

****, I was a Dean's Fellow (kinda like a teaching assistant, I think they started the program the year after you graduated) for good old D. Marvin Jones. As I used to tell people, on a Jones exam "the criminal always goes free". **** your feelings, just issue-spot the way that Jones wants you to issue-spot. Get that A and move on with your life.

Express your opinions in a voting booth.
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I find that to be unacceptable. It is not the professor's job to get you to analyze to come to the same conclusion that they would. That is indoctrinating, not teaching how to think critically. Professors like Jones are equally part of the problem at Miami.
 
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