Dmoney question on the defense

[oduke1]

Its more than the scheme IMO. Its about player match up talent vs. talent. I remember Sean Spence getting torched by Clemson's CJ Spiller on a wheel route out of the 4-3. Players need to win the individual battles to win the war.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4qqCaSLoUI

 

[oduke1]

If all the guys sign that we have verbally committed for '15, '16 it won't matter if we run a 3-4, 4-3, or 4-2-5. We will go on another dynasty run.

 

[Dynasty]

Some of yall would get your asses kicked if you were DC's.

Yall swear it's as simple as jamming WR's every play.

They're completely clueless. They aren't even aware that the '01 Canes ran PLENTY of zone coverage. It's how they wound up with so many picks, but it just so happened that they had two of the best defensive QB's the university has ever seen in Vilma and Reed.

Nah, It all starts upfront. We need disruption from the interior players. We should be working to create as much disruption at the point of contact as possible. That's the foundation of great Miami defense.

The fact of the matter is that we haven't stop an opponent's running game or aerial assault, at least not lately. We can debate the reasons for years, but there's no denying the defense has been ****-*** poor. Where do we start? We've got to stuff the running game. I frankly don't care what multiple front we align in 30 or 40, we've got to be able to play better run defense.

I'll say this about the hybrid defense, there's nothing wrong with being multiple. But, I'd hate playing in a system where there are two different sets of techniques for each system...too much technical stuff in there for DLmen. Either implement and teach one gap techniques or two gap principles...not both. That's just my personal opinion.

Pass coverage. I won't get into coverages, calls, etc. But, I do think there should be an emphasis on playing hard techniques at the corner position. Jamming receives would help on outside receivers' releases, but I don't think that is a major area of concern for us. Between the hashes is really the area of concern.
The one thing about this defense is that if we don't get turnovers it gets washed away. We desperately need better route awareness and distribution in our underneath coverages. As I've mentioned before, but I really love Perryman being the hammer in the middle. He's pretty good at looking up receivers coming into his zone area, and he will put that wood on ya *** too. We need more of that from our underneath guys if D wants to play a lot five and four under. We've gotta disrupt timing. It's been way too easy picking apart our underneath stuff. Something needs to change. Yes, man under will help, but we need to see major improvement here.

Btw, that '01 defense played a lot of man under-2. Regardless, though, we had athletic linebackers that could cover. That's the backbone of coverages.

 

[LuCane]

Btw, that '01 defense played a lot of man under-2. Regardless, though, we had athletic linebackers that could cover. That's the backbone of coverages.

They also had one the most intense upfield pass rushes we've ever had here. Some will say it became too loose. But, it must have been scary to play that defense for any QB. Make a really quick decision or die.

 

[k9cane]

Some of yall would get your asses kicked if you were DC's.

Yall swear it's as simple as jamming WR's every play.

They're completely clueless. They aren't even aware that the '01 Canes ran PLENTY of zone coverage. It's how they wound up with so many picks, but it just so happened that they had two of the best defensive QB's the university has ever seen in Vilma and Reed.

Nah, It all starts upfront. We need disruption from the interior players. We should be working to create as much disruption at the point of contact as possible. That's the foundation of great Miami defense.

The fact of the matter is that we haven't stop an opponent's running game or aerial assault, at least not lately. We can debate the reasons for years, but there's no denying the defense has been ****-*** poor. Where do we start? We've got to stuff the running game. I frankly don't care what multiple front we align in 30 or 40, we've got to be able to play better run defense.

I'll say this about the hybrid defense, there's nothing wrong with being multiple. But, I'd hate playing in a system where there are two different sets of techniques for each system...too much technical stuff in there for DLmen. Either implement and teach one gap techniques or two gap principles...not both. That's just my personal opinion.

Pass coverage. I won't get into coverages, calls, etc. But, I do think there should be an emphasis on playing hard techniques at the corner position. Jamming receives would help on outside receivers' releases, but I don't think that is a major area of concern for us. Between the hashes is really the area of concern.
The one thing about this defense is that if we don't get turnovers it gets washed away. We desperately need better route awareness and distribution in our underneath coverages. As I've mentioned before, but I really love Perryman being the hammer in the middle. He's pretty good at looking up receivers coming into his zone area, and he will put that wood on ya *** too. We need more of that from our underneath guys if D wants to play a lot five and four under. We've gotta disrupt timing. It's been way too easy picking apart our underneath stuff. Something needs to change. Yes, man under will help, but we need to see major improvement here.

Btw, that '01 defense played a lot of man under-2. Regardless, though, we had athletic linebackers that could cover. That's the backbone of coverages.

Lots of garbage in this thread, stuff like this is gold

 

[Dynasty]

Btw, that '01 defense played a lot of man under-2. Regardless, though, we had athletic linebackers that could cover. That's the backbone of coverages.

They also had one the most intense upfield pass rushes we've ever had here. Some will say it became too loose. But, it must have been scary to play that defense for any QB. Make a really quick decision or die.

Agree. It was the best in my opinion. The James Bates philosophy.

 

[HurricaneKush]

What we do will never be ideal with this staff. I don't understand why you recruit In a grounds with elite speed and athletes, and try to bulk them up, slow them down, and etmthem thinking.

Willing to be wrong but this won't be a bad idea for so long that eventually becomes a good one. Just my .02

 

[LuCane]

Its more than the scheme IMO. Its about player match up talent vs. talent. I remember Sean Spence getting torched by Clemson's CJ Spiller on a wheel route out of the 4-3. Players need to win the individual battles to win the war.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4qqCaSLoUI

Man, that's not really about 1 on 1 wins. Not a lot of LBs (maybe any) are going to win a foot race down the sideline with a guy like CJ Spiller.

 

[weownfsu]

Its more than the scheme IMO. Its about player match up talent vs. talent. I remember Sean Spence getting torched by Clemson's CJ Spiller on a wheel route out of the 4-3. Players need to win the individual battles to win the war.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4qqCaSLoUI

That's an awful example because that is PRECISELY about scheme. You're not going to find a linebacker who has ever played college football that could cover CJ Spiller on a wheel route.

 

[Dynasty]

Its more than the scheme IMO. Its about player match up talent vs. talent. I remember Sean Spence getting torched by Clemson's CJ Spiller on a wheel route out of the 4-3. Players need to win the individual battles to win the war.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4qqCaSLoUI

Man, that's not really about 1 on 1 wins. Not a lot of LBs (maybe any) are going to win a foot race down the sideline with a guy like CJ Spiller.

I agree with his overall premise, though. But you're right not many LBs are winning that match up. Gotta chalk that up as good offensive coaching..exploiting a mismatch.

Back to defense.

I think there's a way Golden could save his and D's ***. I've been think about another psu disciple who controlled the Canes' defense. Greg Schiano. Of course I do realize that Butch Davis' core principles remained the focal point defensively, but monkey boy didn't hesitate bringing linebacker pressures in order to help generate an interior pass rush. Thinking back to that '00 season we still had issues verse the pass, but we were also pretty **** good against the run. And I think that's exactly what Golden needs to do more of. Beat somebody at the point of attack. Forget those stale C and D gap blitzes we have been running since forever. Those blitzes haven't created favorable match ups inside for a number of reasons. I wouldn't mind seeing Perryman more involved in primarily focusing on shutting down the interior gaps. I think we're going to be a heavy 4 under defense anyway, so use the hammer to nail down the interior and create pressure.

 

[oduke1]

Its more than the scheme IMO. Its about player match up talent vs. talent. I remember Sean Spence getting torched by Clemson's CJ Spiller on a wheel route out of the 4-3. Players need to win the individual battles to win the war.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4qqCaSLoUI

That's an awful example because that is PRECISELY about scheme. You're not going to find a linebacker who has ever played college football that could cover CJ Spiller on a wheel route.

Its not what you run as a base D, its how the DC and OC find the mismatches talent vs talent. Obviously, Spence is one of the greatest and played on a bad knee for a stretch of games. F'n Spiller that game and Randy kicking it to him.

 

[CanesAreAble]

How much were we two-gapping last year?

A tweet from a few weeks ago:

 

[JHallCanes]

So many words but this DC debate is so **** simple.

1. Our talent has been way below Miami caliber in general

2. We watch coordinators across the country year in and year out get more from much less talent than we have


Color it up with any ******* color bow or streamer and it's still the same. If we as a fanbase were expected to sit there and shut up while we watched the two worst defenses in our lifetimes take the field, and it was all for this grand vision we kept getting jammed down our throats, well it's put up or shut the **** up time.

/drop mic

 

[UMFarArcher]

If all the guys sign that we have verbally committed for '15, '16 it won't matter if we run a 3-4, 4-3, or 4-2-5. We will go on another dynasty run.

If that were true, we don't even need a coaching staff. Just get good players and let them run their own show.

Coaching can make a so-so team great, or a great team so-so.

The best coaches see trends - like Spurrier has already had a bellyful of 3-4 after only one game - and then there are those who can't see siht stinks after three years.

You see.

 

[LuCane]

Its more than the scheme IMO. Its about player match up talent vs. talent. I remember Sean Spence getting torched by Clemson's CJ Spiller on a wheel route out of the 4-3. Players need to win the individual battles to win the war.

Man, that's not really about 1 on 1 wins. Not a lot of LBs (maybe any) are going to win a foot race down the sideline with a guy like CJ Spiller.

I agree with his overall premise, though. But you're right not many LBs are winning that match up. Gotta chalk that up as good offensive coaching..exploiting a mismatch.

Back to defense.

I think there's a way Golden could save his and D's ***. I've been think about another psu disciple who controlled the Canes' defense. Greg Schiano. Of course I do realize that Butch Davis' core principles remained the focal point defensively, but monkey boy didn't hesitate bringing linebacker pressures in order to help generate an interior pass rush. Thinking back to that '00 season we still had issues verse the pass, but we were also pretty **** good against the run. And I think that's exactly what Golden needs to do more of. Beat somebody at the point of attack. Forget those stale C and D gap blitzes we have been running since forever. Those blitzes haven't created favorable match ups inside for a number of reasons. I wouldn't mind seeing Perryman more involved in primarily focusing on shutting down the interior gaps. I think we're going to be a heavy 4 under defense anyway, so use the hammer to nail down the interior and create pressure.

I don't disagree with the premise that we need to win match ups. I just don't think that's a good example of placing a defender in a fair position to win a matchup. I rather see our guys win match ups along the line or a LB being too quick for a Guard through the A gap. In coverages, more often than not, I'm a "tied together" guy. I know I like zones a fair bit more than you have noted you do in the past. I was once (and still could be, depending on the offense) a big proponent of the Fire Zone concepts - until teams just got so good with the spread formations.

As for the general defense comments, that probably deserves its own thread, but we can do it here.

I think you hit it immediately when you said the predominant difference lies in core principles. Schiano brought his style, but it fit within an attacking philosophy. We both know there hasn't been a great deal of evidence of an attacking philosophy here… so far. Some of the more successful blitzes we've seen here over the past 10 or so years happened in 2008 when Bill Young sent cross blitzes relentlessly. Old dude didn't adjust once he showed them out, however. I would absolutely love to see A and B blitzes more often. Even if it's to obliterate the run game and get some 2nd and 13 down and distance situations.

While Perryman is one option, I'd like to see them use Bush more creatively. Outside of that Safety blitz in the bowl game, I didn't see him used downhill as much as I would use him that way. Guy isn't a great read/react guy. He's an athlete. He needs to be flying in a direction. Grace is another guy who could do a lot of what Telvin Smith did for FSU.

I'm with you. So, what are the chances we actually see this happen? I think we'll see 1 or 2 wrinkles early on. I'll await counters.

 

[supacane]

The problem is play calling. That's the problem. If the offensive play beats the defensive play from jump it's hard to stop that. Like No D called the blitz and FSU called a screen. If we had smart players on the field someone would have recognized it. Sean Spence sniff those out so fast it was scary. Too many times we have a team doing much of the same thing....gashing us and our coaches have no asnwer. Or wait till the other team scored two TDs. We need better game planning

 

[Dynasty]

No, no..I think we're on the same page here. My point of emphasis was simply about beating the man across from you. Forget the Spence play. Although Spence got twisted around like a pine tree in a storm, bad technique from the get-go, it was advantage offense.

Yeah, lets focus on the front seven. Run defense and pass defense. You know I'm aggressive, probably overly aggressive, but I prefer penetration provided and supported by linebacker play. I like heat. pressure. Again, I personally would simplify by reading near back and just play upfield. Yeah, I know I would be a suspect for play action because the backers would be playing downhill hard and fast, but there would be some serious chaos at the line of scrimmage. They are working to stuff the ground game on their way to the passer. It's the JJ philosophy improved upon by Sonny Lubick.

Back to Golden's system. Hated reading about more two gaping, but whatever. Using that principle of applying more two gap techs I do agree linebacker play should focus more on shutting down running lanes. My entire focal point of the defense has been NT play. I've always advocated that that position needs to be active. Activity here means there's some friction going on. That's a good thing. I too would love seeing Perryman attack the a and b gaps-interior gaps. Like I said, he's a hammer, nailing down those interior gaps is a mike's primary responsibility. Again, let Perryman play downhill. Let's see if we can generate interior pressure by getting some one on one match ups.

To be honest, Butch had major question marks defensively after the '98 season too. In essence, we were playing something very similar to what we've seen here recently. Engage/dislodge DL play and wide open widows behind our cover-3. Same chit. Butch was always a one gap guy, so yeah, it did help Schiano's attacking system. But, I think Schiano's true value was back seven/six coverages. He did manage to some how squeeze the passing windows.

I was a fan of Bill Young's defense. Again, anything aggressive. In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't matter that much what combination D runs (lb/lb combo, lb/s combo, etc.) the base "principle" question for me is who are my best man coverage guys. If Grace is the stud coverage backer we all think he is, and a better man or equal coverage player than say Bush, then I don't have a problem sending a secondary player. Play to strength.

The chances we see all this? I dunno. I'm at the point now where it is showtime. We will see soon enough. Let's go Canes!!!

Its more than the scheme IMO. Its about player match up talent vs. talent. I remember Sean Spence getting torched by Clemson's CJ Spiller on a wheel route out of the 4-3. Players need to win the individual battles to win the war.

Man, that's not really about 1 on 1 wins. Not a lot of LBs (maybe any) are going to win a foot race down the sideline with a guy like CJ Spiller.

I agree with his overall premise, though. But you're right not many LBs are winning that match up. Gotta chalk that up as good offensive coaching..exploiting a mismatch.

Back to defense.

I think there's a way Golden could save his and D's ***. I've been think about another psu disciple who controlled the Canes' defense. Greg Schiano. Of course I do realize that Butch Davis' core principles remained the focal point defensively, but monkey boy didn't hesitate bringing linebacker pressures in order to help generate an interior pass rush. Thinking back to that '00 season we still had issues verse the pass, but we were also pretty **** good against the run. And I think that's exactly what Golden needs to do more of. Beat somebody at the point of attack. Forget those stale C and D gap blitzes we have been running since forever. Those blitzes haven't created favorable match ups inside for a number of reasons. I wouldn't mind seeing Perryman more involved in primarily focusing on shutting down the interior gaps. I think we're going to be a heavy 4 under defense anyway, so use the hammer to nail down the interior and create pressure.

I don't disagree with the premise that we need to win match ups. I just don't think that's a good example of placing a defender in a fair position to win a matchup. I rather see our guys win match ups along the line or a LB being too quick for a Guard through the A gap. In coverages, more often than not, I'm a "tied together" guy. I know I like zones a fair bit more than you have noted you do in the past. I was once (and still could be, depending on the offense) a big proponent of the Fire Zone concepts - until teams just got so good with the spread formations.

As for the general defense comments, that probably deserves its own thread, but we can do it here.

I think you hit it immediately when you said the predominant difference lies in core principles. Schiano brought his style, but it fit within an attacking philosophy. We both know there hasn't been a great deal of evidence of an attacking philosophy here… so far. Some of the more successful blitzes we've seen here over the past 10 or so years happened in 2008 when Bill Young sent cross blitzes relentlessly. Old dude didn't adjust once he showed them out, however. I would absolutely love to see A and B blitzes more often. Even if it's to obliterate the run game and get some 2nd and 13 down and distance situations.

While Perryman is one option, I'd like to see them use Bush more creatively. Outside of that Safety blitz in the bowl game, I didn't see him used downhill as much as I would use him that way. Guy isn't a great read/react guy. He's an athlete. He needs to be flying in a direction. Grace is another guy who could do a lot of what Telvin Smith did for FSU.

I'm with you. So, what are the chances we actually see this happen? I think we'll see 1 or 2 wrinkles early on. I'll await counters.

 

[sotacane22]

lets just pray that this team is in gods (jesus christ) hands, and that he impliments his supernatural scheme onto the field, where he can make every player aware and heighten there senses to stop the other team with each players natural instincts, and that the program and players, coaches, and fans. have been through enough with ncaa and have worked hard to deserve this blessing of sustained victory throughout this season of our lives.

 

[WhatTheHell]

To me, everything that can be said about this defense has been said. Every theory explored. None of it matters.

It's year four. You have a defense full of talented kids that could've named their school coming out of high school. I don't care what the reason is anymore. Field a great defense or you're out.

I don't care why it fails. If if fails, it's time to go. 4 years and group of great players on defense means no more excuses or tired debates. Show us you can produce or we move on, reasons for failure are irrelevant.

 

[BALLHAWKU]

Its more than the scheme IMO. Its about player match up talent vs. talent. I remember Sean Spence getting torched by Clemson's CJ Spiller on a wheel route out of the 4-3. Players need to win the individual battles to win the war.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4qqCaSLoUI

Man, that's not really about 1 on 1 wins. Not a lot of LBs (maybe any) are going to win a foot race down the sideline with a guy like CJ Spiller.

He actually proved my point a LB trying to cover Spiller? Your right not one lb can run with CJ, whats next Chad playing CB covering wide outs