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Al Groh Defense Explained

DeadPoets

DeadPoets

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http://barrelofrum.blogspot.com/2010/01/3-4-opus-starring-al-groh.html

Pretty good read for those wanting to understand what (I think) Golden & D'Onofrio would like to run.
I could be completely wrong - but isn't this what they would have been exposed to @ Virginia under Groh & would want to run here?

We obviously don't have the NT to run a true 3-4 or enough LBs to play it. So it seems this year is really a makeshift defense attempt by Coach G & D.

But it's interesting to note that Groh (and Saban & other 3-4 aficionados) are very adamant about stopping run on 1st/2nd in zone and blitzing/man on 3rd down)

*Shrugs*

Random thought: Why not pony up and bring Al Groh in? Make D'Onofrio asst DC/LB Coach.
Other teams do this. Let him learn on the job as co-def coordinator.
 
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The scheme is awesome, we just don't have anywhere near the DL and LB's to execute the most critical functions of the scheme. If you consistently get beat at the point of attack, you lose. We've got guys at the DT position right now that have legs smaller than NFL LB's. You need low COG types--think Casey Hampton, Vince Wilfork, etc. Folks...the Steelers and Ravens both run this scheme, there is a reason they are so **** good playing within it...you need the horses, though.

Once this type of defense is rolling, the amount of looks and disguises you can bring pre-snap can really confuse an offense.
 
Cyber,

Understandable and sounds great/promising. But it's hard to ignore that D'Onofrio has only been a DC for 5 years (and that was in the MAAC).
I could understand if Golden brought in Al Groh @ DC and made D'Onofrio co-DC - prepping him for the future to take over responsibility.

But this is a mess we're in defensively and I'm not sure a youngin, such as D'Ono, can get us out. Hope I'm wrong.


(And don't tell me we can't afford Groh)
 
CyberCane said:
The scheme is awesome, we just don't have anywhere near the DL and LB's to execute the most critical functions of the scheme. If you consistently get beat at the point of attack, you lose. We've got guys at the DT position right now that have legs smaller than NFL LB's. You need low COG types--think Casey Hampton, Vince Wilfork, etc. Folks...the Steelers and Ravens both run this scheme, there is a reason they are so **** good playing within it...you need the horses, though.

Once this type of defense is rolling, the amount of looks and disguises you can bring pre-snap can really confuse an offense.
Click to expand...

So, recruiting experts and guys that are able to watch kids on our board play - are we recruiting and landing the types of players that will allow us to run this defense?
 
Scheme overhaul, youth, inexperience, horrible upperclassmen recruited to a different scheme equals the 2012 hurricanes defense. It will bottom out this year then gradually improve the next year or 2 till its in full swing. Bicho has spoken.
 
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When Ivery and Moore develop, they'll be good candidates for that nose tackle spot.

Keith Bryant too, although he's versatile enough I wouldn't just play him there.

Curtis Porter would be holding that spot down this year if he could heal from his appendectomy.

It sucks for now, but it looks like there is a plan for that position. Just like there is a plan for 3-4/4-3 ends, and hybrid rush ends/olb.
 
I thought they ran a 4/3 at Temple? We could run the 3/4 when Porter gets back and it probably fit's our team better. Cain and Green outside with EJ and DP inside. Chick, and Pierre at end.
 
why not just go 3-4 though? if we were running a speed based 4-3 scheme i'd understand sticking to it. but its an engage and shed technique based up front. have less guys up front who can do that then guys who could take a stand up and play OLB. would be just getting by at DL either way.
 
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DeadPoets said:
Cyber,

Understandable and sounds great/promising. But it's hard to ignore that D'Onofrio has only been a DC for 5 years (and that was in the MAAC).
I could understand if Golden brought in Al Groh @ DC and made D'Onofrio co-DC - prepping him for the future to take over responsibility.

But this is a mess we're in defensively and I'm not sure a youngin, such as D'Ono, can get us out. Hope I'm wrong.


(And don't tell me we can't afford Groh)
Click to expand...

I would take Groh in a NY minute, he's proven. Coach D is unproven (for the most part) to this point. When Miami is good, we can recruit almost anywhere in the country--we can get the guys. I would love to have a guy come in as co-DC, just don't think it will happen at least not in the amount of time we are willing to wait.
 
Every5Yrs said:
CyberCane said:
The scheme is awesome, we just don't have anywhere near the DL and LB's to execute the most critical functions of the scheme. If you consistently get beat at the point of attack, you lose. We've got guys at the DT position right now that have legs smaller than NFL LB's. You need low COG types--think Casey Hampton, Vince Wilfork, etc. Folks...the Steelers and Ravens both run this scheme, there is a reason they are so **** good playing within it...you need the horses, though.

Once this type of defense is rolling, the amount of looks and disguises you can bring pre-snap can really confuse an offense.
Click to expand...

So, recruiting experts and guys that are able to watch kids on our board play - are we recruiting and landing the types of players that will allow us to run this defense?
Click to expand...

You'd have to believe they are recruiting (and have recruited) the type of guys that will fit this scheme. Take a Dwayne Hoilett and Tyriq McCord...these guys will be prototypical hybrid OLB/DE's. Each will be in that 250 lb range next year and should be able to run. The major problem this year is that we have some young guys with the frame, they just don't have near the experience, strength, size, conditioning yet. Think about what Earl Moore will be next year at this time, two years from now at this time...completely different guy. That is, for the most part, the type of player we are facing every week (the Earl Moore in two years). Yes, some teams play a bunch of young guys, but they are complimented with junior/seniors that are prepared at a high level.

Until we have seasoned guys that are backed-up by former HS AA's (4/5*) types (in other words...reloading), we will be in for growing pains. And please don't get me wrong when I say 4/5* is some absolute requirement...take a look at the kid's offer sheet early in the recruiting process, that is often most telling. Most website begin adding stars as the big school offers come in.
 
Another thing regarding recruiting the right types of players...take a look at the DE's we have in the pipeline that are already on the team:

Hamilton: 6'5 270 lbs. (will likely play in the future at 280-290 lbs.)
Jake O'Donnell 6'6 243 lbs (will likely play in the future at 260-270 lbs)
Briscoe: Could potentially move to DE and play at 6'5 290-300 lbs
Chick: Likely up to the 275 lb range

Clearly, the days of Shayon Green, Vernon (would have made a great OLB in the system), M Rob, etc--type of guys are over. It's about gap control, not having guys that are glorified LB's that can speed rush and do little else.

Ivery, Moore, Porter...all in that 6'0-6'1 300+ lb mold. This will be the most important position for us. We must have guys at nose that can play low, get off the ball quickly, and command double teams.

This is a very exciting defense when you have the right bodies and they understand the scheme. I'd imagine for a lot of kids it's a very tough transition coming from a simple 4-4 or 4-3 base out of high school, though. If you understand how the system is supposed to work, you'd understand why we are struggling so mightily right now. Honestly, it will be painful, but I'd rather practice and run the system this year and prepare the young guys who will be with the team for years, than abandon the system and lose all of that prep time. Most people (fans) won't be patient enough to wait for it, but when this biotch turns around (assuming we can continue to recruit the right guys) we will have a **** good system and defense.
 
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CyberCane said:
Another thing regarding recruiting the right types of players...take a look at the DE's we have in the pipeline that are already on the team:

Hamilton: 6'5 270 lbs. (will likely play in the future at 280-290 lbs.)
Jake O'Donnell 6'6 243 lbs (will likely play in the future at 260-270 lbs)
Briscoe: Could potentially move to DE and play at 6'5 290-300 lbs
Chick: Likely up to the 275 lb range

Clearly, the days of Shayon Green, Vernon (would have made a great OLB in the system), M Rob, etc--type of guys are over. It's about gap control, not having guys that are glorified LB's that can speed rush and do little else.

Ivery, Moore, Porter...all in that 6'0-6'1 300+ lb mold. This will be the most important position for us. We must have guys at nose that can play low, get off the ball quickly, and command double teams.

This is a very exciting defense when you have the right bodies and they understand the scheme. I'd imagine for a lot of kids it's a very tough transition coming from a simple 4-4 or 4-3 base out of high school, though. If you understand how the system is supposed to work, you'd understand why we are struggling so mightily right now. Honestly, it will be painful, but I'd rather practice and run the system this year and prepare the young guys who will be with the team for years, than abandon the system and lose all of that prep time. Most people (fans) won't be patient enough to wait for it, but when this biotch turns around (assuming we can continue to recruit the right guys) we will have a **** good system and defense.
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Agree
BTW, the current DLs are too young. Except Smith (senior) and Green who is undersize, the rest are Fr and So
 
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Everyone needs to just chill out for a while. Seriously, just chill the **** out. Watch the games, have fun. Tailgate do your thing. This scheme WORKS. It is empirically provable that the scheme works. We have minimal talent and almost exclusively youth. We can't run the scheme right. Come 2014, this defense will work. Until then, we hit 8-9 wins at most.
 
I've read that before. GTech may have a relatively ****** football program, but their fanbase is legit. When Paul Johnson came on board, they broke down his system perfectly.

Anyway, before I get into the specifics, I wanted to point out one thing that reflects what Al Golden said in his Kansas State post-game interview:

In all situations, we will defend the inside or middle of the field first – defend inside to outside. Against the run, we will not allow the ball to be run inside. We want to force the ball outside.

This is what Golden kept repeating as "kicking the ball out to the perimeter."

As has been noted, we #1 do not have the DL players capable of doing this, #2 are limited with what we're doing behind them, and #3 further limited by our Safeties.

In other words, it's a perfect alignment to result in a ****ed up scenario. I'll get more into the post when I get out of work and after my evening meetings.
 
"The single most important player in a 3-4 is the nose tackle. It all starts with the big fella' in the middle." ... we don't have the single most important player for the scheme, yet.
 
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We don't run that scheme, so we shouldn't focus on the article as it relates to our current situation. Also, my understanding is that Golden/D'Ono run their version in the 4-3 and did so at Temple, so it's different anyway. I'm not sure I've seen any of our DTs line up in a "0" or "1" technique.
 
LuCane said:
We don't run that scheme, so we shouldn't focus on the article as it relates to our current situation. Also, my understanding is that Golden/D'Ono run their version in the 4-3 and did so at Temple, so it's different anyway. I'm not sure I've seen any of our DTs line up in a "0" or "1" technique.
Click to expand...
How can they run "their version" of the 3-4... but in the 4-3? Makes no sense. They seemingly are putting a **** ton of pressure on our LBs. Too much if you ask me.
Not to mention our ability to disguise our defense is a joke right now. I just assume we stand our DL up on 3rd downs and have them move around presnap lol why not? could it be worse?

If you're talking about stand up rushing LB/DE ends putting a hand down.... doesn't it then become a 4-3 essentially? And the assignments behind that change (Mike, Sam, Will) vs 4LBs ?

I was actually gung ho to hear we might convert to a 3-4. I've always liked the defense and have thought with our speed, aggressive play, and recruiting ability, it would fit us well. Imagine 2003 defense in the 3-4 (vince holds down middle - ST plays rover in cover 1, Rolle lockdown, Vilma, DJ, McIntosh, etc at LB - omg)
 
DeadPoets said:
http://barrelofrum.blogspot.com/2010/01/3-4-opus-starring-al-groh.html

Pretty good read for those wanting to understand what (I think) Golden & D'Onofrio would like to run.
I could be completely wrong - but isn't this what they would have been exposed to @ Virginia under Groh & would want to run here?

We obviously don't have the NT to run a true 3-4 or enough LBs to play it. So it seems this year is really a makeshift defense attempt by Coach G & D.

But it's interesting to note that Groh (and Saban & other 3-4 aficionados) are very adamant about stopping run on 1st/2nd in zone and blitzing/man on 3rd down)

*Shrugs*

Random thought: Why not pony up and bring Al Groh in? Make D'Onofrio asst DC/LB Coach.
Other teams do this. Let him learn on the job as co-def coordinator.
Click to expand...

LULZ I was a week early in predicting you would say this.
 
[video=youtube;sJxuJSwcyxg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJxuJSwcyxg[/video]

Watching Bama's D im not so sure their scheme is a whole lot different than ours. Talent and execution............Bama 8==========================================>>> us obviously.
 
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