A weigh room question

dogcane

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Nov 6, 2011
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When asked the development of the s&c, Golden often talked about how players improved their bench press reps. I rarely heard how do they increase their squat #s. I remember someone posted Chick's weigh room #s here, and the others said the squat # was a little bit low.
Maybe I am wrong, I always think lower body and core strength are more important. Should (did) we put more emphasis on the improvement of lower body and core strength?
 
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A wise question.

We have a staff that knows what they are doing though. The bench #'s are what people want to hear and are what attract the attention. I have zero doubts that we are making sure the guys are squatting like crazy.

Chick will be fine. His numbers were just ok, but he looks like a different kid. Some guys just take a little longer to respond in the weight room(#'s wise) even though physically they look much better.
 
I thought the question would be: Weight room- did we use it at all in the past?
 
Lower body and core are very important.

But I also think we are emphasizing it. Bench press numbers are told because that is what everyone knows and what is tested at the combine. If they threw out squat numbers, not as many people would really know if they were good or not.

Exactly, mention anything else and the average person is not going to know what the **** he's talking about.
 
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Yes they track all weight increases but they didnt make all the numbers public but Denzil said on numerous occasions that he increase his squads and Mike James as well. We just dont know exactly what the numbers are. I have no doubt that Swasey didn't focus on one particular part of the body. It was a complete conditioning and strength training program.
 
Very good topic.

First, I think most strength coaches are much more concerned with a players squat and power clean numbers than they are with the bench press. The BP is still very important, but well behind those. You don't play football on your back, and so what's really important is applying force from the ground with your feet.

Second, for whatever lift, the numbers most coaches care about are how much weight a player can lift as his max, and not how many times someone can lift a very light weight (and yes, 225 is VERY light for guys like this). That’s why in all those UM weightlifting records (and everywhere else) you see are listed held by maximum weight lifted, not rep numbers.

So I was very surprised, to say the least, that Golden seems to be so focused on those 225 rep #s.

The only reason the NFL tests it that way is b/c it is a way to standardize the test and do it quickly, like the 40 and the vertical jump. To test out max numbers would take way too long, and get way to complex, as you’d have guys going multiple times at multiple weight levels, and having to make strategy decisions as to what to attempt, kind of like you see in the Olympics. Here, you just set the weights once, and every guy gets one turn.

And I think the reason they test the BP instead of the other lifts, is that the other lifts vary so greatly in terms of form differences, and so you’d almost need a panel of judges comparing the form as well (e.g., how far down did the squatter go, did the lifter get the bar up in the power clean or did he just jump under it). There is a little “cheat” in the BP, but not nearly as much.

You’ll also note, for the reasons above, that scouts seem to have almost ZERO interest in the BP combine numbers, whereas millions of dollars are lost each year on the other tests. Not that long ago, for example, Michael Oher, an OL that was drafted 8 overall by Jax, and Ray Maualuga were all beaten by USC’s kicker in the BP test. And nobody cared.
 
Bench press is really inconsequential when it comes to football performance. What you want is core strength as well as having them train "football muscles" needed at their positions. Increased flexibility is a must have also, you want functional strength. When the **** are guys on their back pushing anyone in football? It just gives you a gauge of how strong someone may be but it doesn't mean much.
 
Well 4th and 14...if you have ever weight trained before you would realize that when you can rep a certain set weight (i.e. 225lbs) a certain amount of time and then you increase the amount of times you can lift that weight, two things of great importance happens for you. First you increase your muscle endurance which is a necessity in football and secondly your strength overall improves which includes increasing your maximum bench press. Guarantee if you can find the numbers of the guys before they started U-Tough and note their max bench and the max reps at 225, at the end of U-Tough, those that increased their max reps +10 also increased their maximum bench. That is why the coaches pay so much attention to quantity over max.
Very good topic.

First, I think most strength coaches are much more concerned with a players squat and power clean numbers than they are with the bench press. The BP is still very important, but well behind those. You don't play football on your back, and so what's really important is applying force from the ground with your feet.

Second, for whatever lift, the numbers most coaches care about are how much weight a player can lift as his max, and not how many times someone can lift a very light weight (and yes, 225 is VERY light for guys like this). That’s why in all those UM weightlifting records (and everywhere else) you see are listed held by maximum weight lifted, not rep numbers.

So I was very surprised, to say the least, that Golden seems to be so focused on those 225 rep #s.

The only reason the NFL tests it that way is b/c it is a way to standardize the test and do it quickly, like the 40 and the vertical jump. To test out max numbers would take way too long, and get way to complex, as you’d have guys going multiple times at multiple weight levels, and having to make strategy decisions as to what to attempt, kind of like you see in the Olympics. Here, you just set the weights once, and every guy gets one turn.

And I think the reason they test the BP instead of the other lifts, is that the other lifts vary so greatly in terms of form differences, and so you’d almost need a panel of judges comparing the form as well (e.g., how far down did the squatter go, did the lifter get the bar up in the power clean or did he just jump under it). There is a little “cheat” in the BP, but not nearly as much.

You’ll also note, for the reasons above, that scouts seem to have almost ZERO interest in the BP combine numbers, whereas millions of dollars are lost each year on the other tests. Not that long ago, for example, Michael Oher, an OL that was drafted 8 overall by Jax, and Ray Maualuga were all beaten by USC’s kicker in the BP test. And nobody cared.
 
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I doubt that Golden is over-emphasizing the BP in off-season training (i.e., the team isn't going in and just lifting chest and arms, like a lot of people I remember at the Wellness Center when I was there). BP is just a test that is a reasonable proxy for overall strength and conditioning that is easy to measure (as previously mentioned) and allows players to have a specific goal and measurable result from their efforts.

Also, it requires a great deal of core strength to throw up a lot of BP reps, but variables such as arm length affect each player's potential.
 
Golden talks about developing their "core" all the time. Golden, and most coaches at the college/NFL level (even some HS's), understand lower body development.
In fact our bench numbers could not have rose so dramatically without squat/clean numbers increasing. You use your hip drive even on bench press.

And fwiw many of the Raising Canes videos show our guys doing front squats, cleans, and working on top squats.
 
It's sort of a rah rah Test. It's a standardized test that guys can turn into a competitive event to finish out a conditioning period. It's a great way to develop a competitive environment. As far as strength training goes 1 rep max doesn't always go hand & hand with max reps. Different muscle fiber composition may cuz a highly explosive athlete to burn out quicker yet he is strong as a **** in a 1 rep situation. Also program design has alot to do with it. Are u training endurance or strength/power? Perfect example is a sprinter. Elite 200/400 sprinter would very rarely be that same type of elite in the 100. I.e. Alison Felix. Different training different energy systems.
 
Very good topic.

First, I think most strength coaches are much more concerned with a players squat and power clean numbers than they are with the bench press. The BP is still very important, but well behind those. You don't play football on your back, and so what's really important is applying force from the ground with your feet.

Second, for whatever lift, the numbers most coaches care about are how much weight a player can lift as his max, and not how many times someone can lift a very light weight (and yes, 225 is VERY light for guys like this). That’s why in all those UM weightlifting records (and everywhere else) you see are listed held by maximum weight lifted, not rep numbers.

So I was very surprised, to say the least, that Golden seems to be so focused on those 225 rep #s.

The only reason the NFL tests it that way is b/c it is a way to standardize the test and do it quickly, like the 40 and the vertical jump. To test out max numbers would take way too long, and get way to complex, as you’d have guys going multiple times at multiple weight levels, and having to make strategy decisions as to what to attempt, kind of like you see in the Olympics. Here, you just set the weights once, and every guy gets one turn.

And I think the reason they test the BP instead of the other lifts, is that the other lifts vary so greatly in terms of form differences, and so you’d almost need a panel of judges comparing the form as well (e.g., how far down did the squatter go, did the lifter get the bar up in the power clean or did he just jump under it). There is a little “cheat” in the BP, but not nearly as much.

You’ll also note, for the reasons above, that scouts seem to have almost ZERO interest in the BP combine numbers, whereas millions of dollars are lost each year on the other tests. Not that long ago, for example, Michael Oher, an OL that was drafted 8 overall by Jax, and Ray Maualuga were all beaten by USC’s kicker in the BP test. And nobody cared.

this seems a bit simplistic, for one, as said earlier, if you improve on reps you are going to improve on maximum weight lifted.

second, to my knowledge, not all of the S&C grading has been released ON PURPOSE. i am confident they have tested max lifts but have not released them.

and third, BP is a good indicator because, while you do not play football on your back, you are pushing away from the core constantly which essentially is the same movement in BP.
 
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Yes they track all weight increases but they didnt make all the numbers public but Denzil said on numerous occasions that he increase his squads and Mike James as well. We just dont know exactly what the numbers are. I have no doubt that Swasey didn't focus on one particular part of the body. It was a complete conditioning and strength training program.

Thanks. No doubt our s&c coaches are experts and have a complete and systemic training program. I just couldn't help thinking they overemphasized the BP a little. For example, they planned to have at least 40 players BP >20 reps and 10 or 20 players over 30 reps etc. I did not hear similar plans for squat or others. I guess the reason is BP is easy to measure like others said here.
Anyway, I think the best indicator is game performance. I hope they don't get pushed around this year
 
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Very good topic.

First, I think most strength coaches are much more concerned with a players squat and power clean numbers than they are with the bench press. The BP is still very important, but well behind those. You don't play football on your back, and so what's really important is applying force from the ground with your feet.

Second, for whatever lift, the numbers most coaches care about are how much weight a player can lift as his max, and not how many times someone can lift a very light weight (and yes, 225 is VERY light for guys like this). That’s why in all those UM weightlifting records (and everywhere else) you see are listed held by maximum weight lifted, not rep numbers.

So I was very surprised, to say the least, that Golden seems to be so focused on those 225 rep #s.

The only reason the NFL tests it that way is b/c it is a way to standardize the test and do it quickly, like the 40 and the vertical jump. To test out max numbers would take way too long, and get way to complex, as you’d have guys going multiple times at multiple weight levels, and having to make strategy decisions as to what to attempt, kind of like you see in the Olympics. Here, you just set the weights once, and every guy gets one turn.

And I think the reason they test the BP instead of the other lifts, is that the other lifts vary so greatly in terms of form differences, and so you’d almost need a panel of judges comparing the form as well (e.g., how far down did the squatter go, did the lifter get the bar up in the power clean or did he just jump under it). There is a little “cheat” in the BP, but not nearly as much.

You’ll also note, for the reasons above, that scouts seem to have almost ZERO interest in the BP combine numbers, whereas millions of dollars are lost each year on the other tests. Not that long ago, for example, Michael Oher, an OL that was drafted 8 overall by Jax, and Ray Maualuga were all beaten by USC’s kicker in the BP test. And nobody cared.

Yes, it is hard and dangerous to measure squat in the combine. I think that is the reason they test board jump and vertical leaping. Simple and both are about explosive and lower body strength
 
It's like when u hear the strength had a team run 30 110's...wow!!! They must be getting better & faster. Really??? U ran 110 yards in 14, 16, or 18 seconds which usually is requiring a athlete to run at 75-80% of his max speed. A football play usually last 6-10sec at full speed. Tell me how that makes sense? Nobody is getting faster running a 110 but a big component of what strength coaches do also involves mental condition/ team bonding/ creating a competitive environment...even if it doesn't make total scientific sense
 
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Well dogcane i think that was designed because its one of the NFL strength test that all players need to do pretty well in. So therefore its asked by the media alot and the coachs just answer the questions directed towards them.
Yes they track all weight increases but they didnt make all the numbers public but Denzil said on numerous occasions that he increase his squads and Mike James as well. We just dont know exactly what the numbers are. I have no doubt that Swasey didn't focus on one particular part of the body. It was a complete conditioning and strength training program.

Thanks. No doubt our s&c coaches are experts and have a complete and systemic training program. I just couldn't help thinking they overemphasized the BP a little. For example, they planned to have at least 40 players BP >20 reps and 10 or 20 players over 30 reps etc. I did not hear similar plans for squat or others. I guess the reason is BP is easy to measure like others said here
 
It's like when u hear the strength had a team run 30 110's...wow!!! They must be getting better & faster. Really??? U ran 110 yards in 14, 16, or 18 seconds which usually is requiring a athlete to run at 75-80% of his max speed. A football play usually last 6-10sec at full speed. Tell me how that makes sense? Nobody is getting faster running a 110 but a big component of what strength coaches do also involves mental condition/ team bonding/ creating a competitive environment...even if it doesn't make total scientific sense

I've never heard anyway say "we're getting faster because we run a lot of 110s."
WHat fool doesn't realize that's more an indication of conditioning? (maybe you at one point?)
 
Trust me never me at any point. But there are ppl that think like that just like ppl think if we can rep 225 alot we must be getting stronger. I was trying to show there is lil correlation between the 2.
 
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