A-State to sue Miami if payment not made for cancelled game

[TheOriginalCane]

Not what is defined as an emergency. A hurricane is clearly covered here. ASU is trying to argue Miami could have left early and just waited for everything to pass before returning. Since the storm wasn't in Arkansas, the clause doesn't apply because the game could have been played. They argue that FSU made up their game, conveniently forgetting that FSU played that game the same day Miami was in the ACC Championship Game, while FSU played it to become bowl eligible. Ultimately, they want to strong arm Miami into giving them some money to go away. They didn't get the publicity Miami would have brought.

I'm pretty sure that the GOVERNOR OF FLORIDA defined it as an emergency. Or a "disaster". Words. Who knows what they mean?

 

[Fightinibis]

Lmaooo


We need to stop giving home games to these pathetic sun belt schools. It’s the biggest deal in the world for them and only ends in disaster. We beat the **** out of the mountain weirdos and then their racist baton team accused our players of roughing them up. Same **** with these losers. Good luck claiming that the force majeure clause doesn’t apply.

We should NOT give these pathetic losers a home game. They don’t deserve to be graced with our presence.

That's the bottom line right there...no ****** good deed goes unpunished.

What other P5 school would've scheduled this game in the first place? Funny how greedy and ungrateful you become in your relentless attempt to be recognized.

***** these ********. Tell them they are welcome to buy out an away game we have in 2020-2021, otherwise STFU and take what you can get.

I hope this is a lesson for our equal opportunity scheduling saints...while App State worked out, these types of thing do NOTHING for UM...NOTHING. State schools have dates that blow up too and don't stoop to this garbage.

UM

 

[Ssoto0055]

If (and let's change the natural disaster to, say, FIRE) a massive fire had burned down Jonesboro (please, please, please hear my prayers, sweet Jesus), there would have been no way to play the game. It would have been an impossibility, and if there were no exigencies that would have allowed for rescheduling, THEN the contract would have been void.

However, our situation is different, but that DOES NOT MEAN that you can't invoke the force majeure clause. Let's say that a fire was bearing down on Jonesboro (please, please) and all of a sudden it made a 90 degree turn at the last minute. Technically, it was not IMPOSSIBLE to play the game, but there may have been evacuations, etc. The concept of force majeure is an old one. The concept of how a city, county, and/or state prepares for natural disasters is more recent. If you honestly believe that a court would get super-technical on this issue, I believe you are misguided.

You're correct about impossibility. It would need to be something like the stadium burns down to make playing impossible and technically this game was not impossible to play. That's why the better argument is impracticability. It's not impossible, but unforeseen circumstances have made performance extremely difficult and unreasonable.

 

[Ssoto0055]

It wasn’t impossible for Miami to play that game, it was just potentially unreasonable and dangerous for them and their families. Let the lawyers explain it, but that’s enough of a reason for force majeure clause to be argued in my opinion.

Generally that's called impracticability. You can perform, but it becomes unfeasibly difficult to perform.

 

[Ssoto0055]

I'm pretty sure that the GOVERNOR OF FLORIDA defined it as an emergency. Or a "disaster". Words. Who knows what they mean?

It was an emergency and the Governor did call it an emergency. I'm not disputing that. I was referring to the contract and what the parties meant at the time they assented to the contract. Having said that, by any reasonable standard a category 5 hurricane would constitute one and probably in the mind of the parties when they agreed to this.

 

[TheOriginalCane]

You're correct about impossibility. It would need to be something like the stadium burns down to make playing impossible and technically this game was not impossible to play. That's why the better argument is impracticability. It's not impossible, but unforeseen circumstances have made performance extremely difficult and unreasonable.

Right.

But I would also argue that the common law view of "force majeure" is also evolving. Many courts are moving beyond a technical application of "impossibility" into a zone that takes account of what the government does to prepare for a natural disaster.

Having worked for a certain couple of companies involved in a certain sport, I can tell you that "stock car automobile" race tickets have force majeure language. And even when you are legally within your "rights" to cancel a race and keep everyone's ticket money, there have been one-day reschedulings (Daytona 500 run on Monday due to a rainout) and late-season reschedulings (Firecracker 400 run late in the season due to Florida wildfires). By the way, neither of these events made a race "impossible". But in the first situation, the drivers would have wrecked non-stop if they tried to race in the rain, and in the second situation, there was a disaster zone and the roads could not be traversed, even though it was "possible" to run the race.

Our situation is a bit different, because it involves a "home" and an "away" team. Each one has different future scheduling possibilities. I do not think that a federal court is going to immediately and blindly say that the school with the longer timeframe is "wrong" or "unreasonable".

 

[TheOriginalCane]

It was an emergency and the Governor did call it an emergency. I'm not disputing that. I was referring to the contract and what the parties meant at the time they assented to the contract. Having said that, by any reasonable standard a category 5 hurricane would constitute one and probably in the mind of the parties when they agreed to this.

Yeah, you can relax, man, I'm not mad at you. My sarcasm was directed at A-State fans.

 

[TheOriginalCane]

Here's a simple (future) solution.

Miami, and any other Power 5 schools, will now rewrite their contracts, to provide a hierarchy (rescheduled conference games take priority over rescheduled OOC games), and to clarify conditions around what will constitute a reasonable request (or even a unilateral decision) to reschedule games due to natural disasters (immediate or oncoming).

Furthermore, I would expect Power 5 schools to start looking into insurance for eventualities such as this. If an insurance company was involved, you can bet your bottom dollar that they would have already crunched the numbers and either paid or settled for a portion of the buyout.

 

[QuattroCane]

That's the bottom line right there...no ****** good deed goes unpunished.

What other P5 school would've scheduled this game in the first place? Funny how greedy and ungrateful you become in your relentless attempt to be recognized.

***** these ********. Tell them they are welcome to buy out an away game we have in 2020-2021, otherwise STFU and take what you can get.

I hope this is a lesson for our equal opportunity scheduling saints...while App State worked out, these types of thing do NOTHING for UM...NOTHING. State schools have dates that blow up too and don't stoop to this garbage.

UM

Your anger is misplaced. Miami does this because we're a small private university and can't afford to pay a decent school 1.5mil to come to Miami and play. So we do a trade off i.e. Appy, Arky St., Toledo. If not, all you're going to see is bottom of the barrel programs that will take any payday like Savannah St.. I'd almost guarantee you that's one of the main reason we agreed to schedule FIU again as well.

 

[OptimusCreampie]

I agree with Arkansas State. We agreed to play the game. Force majeure argument is weak....hurricane didn’t even hit Miami.

Plus the game was to be played in Arkansas, not Florida.

And as I recall, FAU, FIU, UF, FSU, and USF all either played their games or rescheduled.

You're the w.o.a.t.

 

[OptimusCreampie]

I don't mind the first warm up game I always think it's a pretty good primer for the team or freshmen to get their feet wet. Hopefully in the future we just don't schedule bush league teams

 

[Ssoto0055]

I agree with Arkansas State. We agreed to play the game. Force majeure argument is weak....hurricane didn’t even hit Miami.

Plus the game was to be played in Arkansas, not Florida.

And as I recall, FAU, FIU, UF, FSU, and USF all either played their games or rescheduled.

On Tuesday when we made the decision to cancel, we were in the cone staring at a cat. 5 hurricane barreling down on us. The hurricane didn't hit Miami but Dade County had hurricane conditions. We're lucky it went a little west. There are parts of the lower Keys that still look like Irma hit last week. You wanted players and coaches to not take measures to secure property and assist families to prepare for a storm and risk losing everything to go play a game. Let that sink in for a minute. FAU was stuck in Wisconsin for a week and the only reason FSU made up that game is so they could be bowl eligible. Don't come in here with that nonsense.

 

[TheOriginalCane]

Your anger is misplaced. Miami does this because we're a small private university and can't afford to pay a decent school 1.5mil to come to Miami and play. So we do a trade off i.e. Appy, Arky St., Toledo. If not, all you're going to see is bottom of the barrel programs that will take any payday like Savannah St.. I'd almost guarantee you that's one of the main reason we agreed to schedule FIU again as well.

We need to clarify something.

Miami ABSOLUTELY can afford to pay a school $1.5 million to come to Miami to play. We simply choose not to do so, and I have frequently criticized Blake James (and other ADs) for not making a greater effort.

Let's think about this. We play 8 ACC games, and 4 OOC games. Ordinarily, the OOC games are 2 home, 2 away. Maybe we have a season with 3 home and 1 away (rare, but similar to the year we loaded up with Florida-based opponents).

The bottom line is that if someone thinks that we can't pay an extra million or two to get one or two "better" opponents, if you REALLY think that this is the difference between profit and loss at Miami, you are wrong.

Think of it this way. We are now in Joe Robbie Stadium, not the Orange Bowl. We have some slightly better deals on parking, concessions, etc. that allow us to make extra revenue that was earmarked for the City of Miami (at the OB). I'm not saying it is a huge number, but generally speaking, if we put more butts in the stands, we can make more money.

Therefore, if we flash back to the halcyon days of the late 90s/early 00s, when we got Tennessee and Florida to come down to the OB, then we can see that it is possible to schedule some opponents that (in addition to being better competition) lead to higher ticket sales. And with greater ticket sales, there is more revenue.

Thus, the linear concept of "it costs more to get a better team" is at least partially offset by "yes, but if we get a better team, we get more revenue". Thus, it is not just a pricetag ("$1.5 million") to get a better team. It also involves the fact that we have moved on from the days of offering "2-for-1s" (UCF won't do it anymore) or just travel games (lots of non-Power 5 teams have to balance their schedules too). We are also at the d!ck-end of Florida, which means it is harder for teams and fans to travel to our games then it is when, say, Ohio State can pay a bunch of midwest schools to play them at home.

So, yeah, I am completely in favor of getting better opponents, even if it costs more, because we can make up for it with more revenue, and we need a better SoS for playoff consideration. Imagine if we ever missed the playoffs because our schedule is not strong enough. That would involve losing A LOT MORE MONEY than just what it costs to bring a better team to Miami.

Look, A-State themselves say they aren't interested in 2-for-1s. So either pay for a better opponent or take what you can get.

And I still can't figure out why there are still Power 5 schools that Miami has never scheduled in nearly 100 years of playing football. But, hey, that's just my opinion.

 

[Meat]

On Tuesday when we made the decision to cancel, we were in the cone staring at a cat. 5 hurricane barreling down on us. The hurricane didn't hit Miami but Dade County had hurricane conditions. We're lucky it went a little west. There are parts of the lower Keys that still look like Irma hit last week. You wanted players and coaches to not take measures to secure property and assist families to prepare for a storm and risk losing everything to go play a game. Let that sink in for a minute. FAU was stuck in Wisconsin for a week and the only reason FSU made up that game is so they could be bowl eligible. Don't come in here with that nonsense.

We made a commitment to show up, and we reneged on our commitment.

It’s not just a “game,” it’s a business. Our not showing up caused them financial harm.

Not to mention that it greatly inconvenienced me....I had tickets and a hotel room and was ready to drive out there from Dallas. So they don’t have my sympathy in this case.

But the bottom line is the hurricane never hit, and they could have played the game that same weekend. The argument that the players needed to be released so that they could go home and hug their mommies is spurious....that crybaby stuff has nothing to do with Miami’s CONTRACTUAL obligations.

We owe them an away game. Now whether offering them a game in 2023 is good enough, I don’t know.

 

[Ssoto0055]

We made a commitment to show up, and we reneged on our commitment.

It’s not just a “game,” it’s a business. Our not showing up caused them financial harm.

Not to mention that it greatly inconvenienced me....I had tickets and a hotel room and was ready to drive out there from Dallas. So they don’t have my sympathy in this case.

But the bottom line is the hurricane never hit, and they could have played the game that same weekend. The argument that the players needed to be released so that they could go home and hug their mommies is spurious....that crybaby stuff has nothing to do with Miami’s CONTRACTUAL obligations.

We owe them an away game. Now whether offering them a game in 2023 is good enough, I don’t know.

The issue isn't whether we made a commitment. We all agree on that. The issue is whether a situation beyond out control made it unfeasible for us to play that game.

It's a business, but in the grand scheme of things, it is a "game." Business in South Florida stopped almost a whole week prior to the storm and didn't pick up for some time after. Real estate closings were suspended. Courts suspended trials and hearings. Lenders deferred payments and didn't charge interest to customers. That's real business that took a hit after the storm. Unless you sold hurricane supplies, you lost money that week.

The hurricane not directly striking Dade County isn't relevant. You don't get to make a decision now based on hindsight. If we did that, business would come to a halt because businesses would be afraid of being second guessed and reprimanded in court after the fact. The issue is based on the facts at the time, did the school make the right decision? Based on the extensive damage the campus and the entire country suffered, it probably was. We might have been stuck out of town for a week like FAU, or one of our local high school teams. I believe it was Central who was stuck in Nevada for almost two weeks. It was the best case scenario for us when you consider we had a cat 5 coming at us. It sounds like what the real issue is, that you were all worked up about going to see the game and didn't get to go. You're emotional and its clouding your judgment and in the process your oversimplifying contracts to rationalize your anger. These players weren't going to hug their mommies, they probably were going to put up plywood and/or shutters for their mommies and probably their aunts and grandmas while securing their own residence and buying supplies for themselves and ensuring their older relatives had what they needed. Many of us did that for our families. All that stuff comes into play because it factors into Miami's ability to perform on this contract impracticable.

We do owe them a game and we're trying to accommodate as soon as possible. Whether 2024 is reasonable remains to be seen. Even though we're the breaching party, the non breaching party has an obligation to mitigate the damages. That's just an implied clause that all contracts have. A non breaching party can not make the situation worse. They must make a good faith attempt to resolve the matter. Like you, ASU is upset the event didn't occur. ASU didn't get the exposure it was hoping for and wants to get what it can out of Miami now because they were probably banking on that check to help fund their athletic department. They've already started asking for liquidated damages. Chances are they'll settle for something a lot less.

ASU also needs to look at the fact they are blacklisting themselves. What power 5 conference school in the southeast which can be affected by a hurricane in the future will schedule them? They might be hurting other mid major programs in the process. They'll never host power 5 program.

 

[OriginalCanesCanesCanes]

I agree with Arkansas State. ....hurricane didn’t even hit Miami...

We made a commitment to show up, and we reneged on our commitment...

Our not showing up caused them financial harm...

Not to mention that it greatly inconvenienced me....

I had tickets and a hotel room and was ready to drive out there from Dallas. So they don’t have my sympathy in this case...But the bottom line is the hurricane never hit....

Are we all in agreement that @Meat is the dumbest of dumbfūcks that posts on CIS?

He has a complete lack of understanding of the facts or legal implications and only understands things at a very basic and simplistic third grade level befitting the stupid look of his cartoon character tag.

I’ve been around for a while, and whether in person, or online, you come across people that are OUSTANDING in one way or another.

@Meat is outstanding in being one of the biggest imbeciles I’ve ever come across. There are several people that post here that I can tell are sharp as tacks, but this drooling troglodyte is the exact opposite.

He’s outstandingly mind-numbingly stupid.

How can so much stupid be stuffed into one person?

 

[OriginalCanesCanesCanes]

We need to clarify something.

Miami ABSOLUTELY can afford to pay a school $1.5 million to come to Miami to play. We simply choose not to do so, and I have frequently criticized Blake James (and other ADs) for not making a greater effort.

Let's think about this. We play 8 ACC games, and 4 OOC games. Ordinarily, the OOC games are 2 home, 2 away. Maybe we have a season with 3 home and 1 away (rare, but similar to the year we loaded up with Florida-based opponents).

The bottom line is that if someone thinks that we can't pay an extra million or two to get one or two "better" opponents, if you REALLY think that this is the difference between profit and loss at Miami, you are wrong.

Think of it this way. We are now in Joe Robbie Stadium, not the Orange Bowl. We have some slightly better deals on parking, concessions, etc. that allow us to make extra revenue that was earmarked for the City of Miami (at the OB). I'm not saying it is a huge number, but generally speaking, if we put more butts in the stands, we can make more money.

Therefore, if we flash back to the halcyon days of the late 90s/early 00s, when we got Tennessee and Florida to come down to the OB, then we can see that it is possible to schedule some opponents that (in addition to being better competition) lead to higher ticket sales. And with greater ticket sales, there is more revenue.

Thus, the linear concept of "it costs more to get a better team" is at least partially offset by "yes, but if we get a better team, we get more revenue". Thus, it is not just a pricetag ("$1.5 million") to get a better team. It also involves the fact that we have moved on from the days of offering "2-for-1s" (UCF won't do it anymore) or just travel games (lots of non-Power 5 teams have to balance their schedules too). We are also at the d!ck-end of Florida, which means it is harder for teams and fans to travel to our games then it is when, say, Ohio State can pay a bunch of midwest schools to play them at home.

So, yeah, I am completely in favor of getting better opponents, even if it costs more, because we can make up for it with more revenue, and we need a better SoS for playoff consideration. Imagine if we ever missed the playoffs because our schedule is not strong enough. That would involve losing A LOT MORE MONEY than just what it costs to bring a better team to Miami.

Look, A-State themselves say they aren't interested in 2-for-1s. So either pay for a better opponent or take what you can get.

And I still can't figure out why there are still Power 5 schools that Miami has never scheduled in nearly 100 years of playing football. But, hey, that's just my opinion.

There are many other factors in this discussion but this is an interesting jump off point.

One other fact to bring into the mix, right or wrong, is that we are also trying to compete financially, and that we need money in the bank to spend on other things to compete with other schools that have massive amounts more than us to spend.

We need that money for competitive salaries, facilities, and the bells and whistles that make the program attractive to recruits so that we can make the playoffs.

We can’t make the playoffs without better players. To get them we have to spend money to continually improve facility and personnel wise.

Those extra pennies the athletic department saves by scheduling shltty opponents isn’t going in anyone’s pockets.

 

[Meat]

The issue isn't whether we made a commitment. We all agree on that. The issue is whether a situation beyond out control made it unfeasible for us to play that game.

It's a business, but in the grand scheme of things, it is a "game." Business in South Florida stopped almost a whole week prior to the storm and didn't pick up for some time after. Real estate closings were suspended. Courts suspended trials and hearings. Lenders deferred payments and didn't charge interest to customers. That's real business that took a hit after the storm. Unless you sold hurricane supplies, you lost money that week.

The hurricane not directly striking Dade County isn't relevant. You don't get to make a decision now based on hindsight. If we did that, business would come to a halt because businesses would be afraid of being second guessed and reprimanded in court after the fact. The issue is based on the facts at the time, did the school make the right decision? Based on the extensive damage the campus and the entire country suffered, it probably was. We might have been stuck out of town for a week like FAU, or one of our local high school teams. I believe it was Central who was stuck in Nevada for almost two weeks. It was the best case scenario for us when you consider we had a cat 5 coming at us. It sounds like what the real issue is, that you were all worked up about going to see the game and didn't get to go. You're emotional and its clouding your judgment and in the process your oversimplifying contracts to rationalize your anger. These players weren't going to hug their mommies, they probably were going to put up plywood and/or shutters for their mommies and probably their aunts and grandmas while securing their own residence and buying supplies for themselves and ensuring their older relatives had what they needed. Many of us did that for our families. All that stuff comes into play because it factors into Miami's ability to perform on this contract impracticable.

We do owe them a game and we're trying to accommodate as soon as possible. Whether 2024 is reasonable remains to be seen. Even though we're the breaching party, the non breaching party has an obligation to mitigate the damages. That's just an implied clause that all contracts have. A non breaching party can not make the situation worse. They must make a good faith attempt to resolve the matter. Like you, ASU is upset the event didn't occur. ASU didn't get the exposure it was hoping for and wants to get what it can out of Miami now because they were probably banking on that check to help fund their athletic department. They've already started asking for liquidated damages. Chances are they'll settle for something a lot less.

ASU also needs to look at the fact they are blacklisting themselves. What power 5 conference school in the southeast which can be affected by a hurricane in the future will schedule them? They might be hurting other mid major programs in the process. They'll never host power 5 program.

I get that it's inconvenient for Miami to travel to Jonesboro and play Arkansas State. But then, we shouldn't have signed up to do a home-and-home. We don't get to walk away from our obligations just because they're inconvenient to us, or because our players decide they would rather be at home with mom. A deal is a deal, and if you say you're going to be somewhere.... you need to be there.

I put 100% of the blame on Blake James for signing us up for a home-and-home with these guys. Never should have happened. But since it did, now we need to live up to our end of the bargain.

It's not Arkansas State's fault that Miami has bad weather from time to time. They shouldn't have to bear the cost.

 

[Category69]

Are we all in agreement that @Meat is the dumbest of dumbfūcks that posts on CIS?

He has a complete lack of understanding of the facts or legal implications and only understands things at a very basic and simplistic third grade level befitting the stupid look of his cartoon character tag.

I’ve been around for a while, and whether in person, or online, you come across people that are OUSTANDING in one way or another.

@Meat is outstanding in being one of the biggest imbeciles I’ve ever come across. There are several people that post here that I can tell are sharp as tacks, but this drooling troglodyte is the exact opposite.

He’s outstandingly mind-numbingly stupid.

How can so much stupid be stuffed into one person?

Needs to be the next BAND, obviously he picks the devils advocate of every post just to play the heel.

 

[Ssoto0055]

I get that it's inconvenient for Miami to travel to Jonesboro and play Arkansas State. But then, we shouldn't have signed up to do a home-and-home. We don't get to walk away from our obligations just because they're inconvenient to us, or because our players decide they would rather be at home with mom. A deal is a deal, and if you say you're going to be somewhere.... you need to be there.

I put 100% of the blame on Blake James for signing us up for a home-and-home with these guys. Never should have happened. But since it did, now we need to live up to our end of the bargain.

It's not Arkansas State's fault that Miami has bad weather from time to time. They shouldn't have to bear the cost.

Bad weather isn't Miami's fault either. Arkansas State was also aware that Miami gets hurricanes and it's not the first time a hurricane affects one of our game. They too took a chance here. That's why clauses like this exist and they agreed to it. You give yourself an out or at least a chance to accommodate when something out of your control happens making performance impracticable. That's a much higher standard than inconvenient. Inconvenience doesn't cut it, but equity can excuse performance because forcing someone to follow through is unfair in light of unforeseen circumstances. That's how our system works. It sounds like you want Miami to pay for scheduling this kind of game and want Miami to "learn a lesson" here.