A full defensive scheme breakdown (it's ugly)

[DeadPoets]

The writing was on the wall when D'Onofrio said "you have to be multiple."

This isn't the NFL (and even NFl teams don't run 2 different philosophies as OP stated).

The more these coaches coach their system the worse our players get. Hence why they show up as freshman showing SO MUCH promise (Deon Bush, etc) & yet they slowly decline and by year 3 our fan base calls them JAGS. They weren't jags... they just became that due to poor teaching & an awful DC.

 

[CANE4LIFE]

EXCELLENT POST OP. THIS is exactly the kind of productive discussion we need here. And it is actually EXPLAINING why we are a clusterf*ck on defense right now. Insofar as its the "scheme" it seems the problem is we cant seem to SETTLE on a scheme and keep trying to do too much, including trying to fit square pegs into round holes. People keep trashing Golden's Defensive "Philsophy" but that isnt the issue IMO. What I see is a system where our players are TOTALLY confused. Its been evident ALL year. EVERY down, they are lining up late, with half the defense looking to the sidelines. EVERY PLAY, there are players out of position, or guys blowing assignments. We are NOT tailoring our scheme to maximize the players we have, and we are complicating things WAY too much which has got our players lost.

Our LB play is also absolutely ATTORCIOUS, and that falls on Coach D. Gaines and Conrelius are simply TERRIBLE. But they also dont look like they have a clue as to what they are supposed to be doing most plays.

One thing we are DESPERATELY lacking, is in a solid MLB who UNDERSTANDS the scheme. A guy like that can become your field general, putting guys in the right spots, making sure alignment is right. We dont have that. Our MLB is as lost as everyone else, and that is why we look like a sh*t show out there.

 

[McGahee2TheHouse]

EXCELLENT POST OP. THIS is exactly the kind of productive discussion we need here. And it is actually EXPLAINING why we are a clusterf*ck on defense right now. Insofar as its the "scheme" it seems the problem is we cant seem to SETTLE on a scheme and keep trying to do too much, including trying to fit square pegs into round holes. People keep trashing Golden's Defensive "Philsophy" but that isnt the issue IMO. What I see is a system where our players are TOTALLY confused. Its been evident ALL year. EVERY down, they are lining up late, with half the defense looking to the sidelines. EVERY PLAY, there are players out of position, or guys blowing assignments. We are NOT tailoring our scheme to maximize the players we have, and we are complicating things WAY too much which has got our players lost.

Our LB play is also absolutely ATTORCIOUS, and that falls on Coach D. Gaines and Conrelius are simply TERRIBLE. But they also dont look like they have a clue as to what they are supposed to be doing most plays.

One thing we are DESPERATELY lacking, is in a solid MLB who UNDERSTANDS the scheme. A guy like that can become your field general, putting guys in the right spots, making sure alignment is right. We dont have that. Our MLB is as lost as everyone else, and that is why we look like a sh*t show out there.

Yeah a MLB would fix a lot of the problems. Look outside, the sky is green

 

[CANE4LIFE]

We were in man coverage on that play where Gunter popped that ball out. That guy belonged to Gunter.

I might need to go back and watch it again but it was hilarious to me seeing Cornelius watch him go right by him and then just turn and stare at the QB LOL Denzel did the same thing on the next 3rd down.

I commented on this in another thread. Our LBs are absolutely miserable at reading what the offense is doing. They do not understand when they can pass a guy off and when they have to go and cover cause there is no one left there to pass off to. At this point in the season, every team is going to use this to rape us underneath. We have shown zero propensity to adjust to stop this.

BINGO. This is what I have been screaming about from thread to thread. IMO our WHOLE problem on D really STARTS with the LBs. They simply have NO idea what they are doing. Neither does the DL for that matter. Too much complexity, and guys blowing assignments EVERY play. I saw exactly what you were talking about last night too. Cornelius watching the guy run right by him, and then looking back into the backfield while the dude ran WIDE open.

Other plays, our DEs or OLBs were leaving the backs floating into the flat for screens ALL GAME, and continued to rush Thomas instead of going into coverage.

Our guys are LOST out there. People keep blaming the "scheme", I dont think its a "scheme" or "Philosophy" issue, its how we are TEACHING, or NOT teaching the scheme and what people should be doing. I think PennMEd made a great point. We are trying to do TOO much, with too much changing and we are doing NOTHING well, which just makes it worse. Instead of confusing offenses, we end up confusing ourselves most of all.

 

[CANE4LIFE]

EXCELLENT POST OP. THIS is exactly the kind of productive discussion we need here. And it is actually EXPLAINING why we are a clusterf*ck on defense right now. Insofar as its the "scheme" it seems the problem is we cant seem to SETTLE on a scheme and keep trying to do too much, including trying to fit square pegs into round holes. People keep trashing Golden's Defensive "Philsophy" but that isnt the issue IMO. What I see is a system where our players are TOTALLY confused. Its been evident ALL year. EVERY down, they are lining up late, with half the defense looking to the sidelines. EVERY PLAY, there are players out of position, or guys blowing assignments. We are NOT tailoring our scheme to maximize the players we have, and we are complicating things WAY too much which has got our players lost.

Our LB play is also absolutely ATTORCIOUS, and that falls on Coach D. Gaines and Conrelius are simply TERRIBLE. But they also dont look like they have a clue as to what they are supposed to be doing most plays.

One thing we are DESPERATELY lacking, is in a solid MLB who UNDERSTANDS the scheme. A guy like that can become your field general, putting guys in the right spots, making sure alignment is right. We dont have that. Our MLB is as lost as everyone else, and that is why we look like a sh*t show out there.

Yeah a MLB would fix a lot of the problems. Look outside, the sky is green

WHO THE F*CK said "Fix all our problems". Pull your head out of your @ss. I said its something we are DESPERATELY lacking. I didnt say it was the ANSWER to all our problems. But when the guys at the CENTER of our defense are LOST, then what hope is there for anything else? EVERY F*CKING PLAY last night, our LBs were either frozen staring into the backfield while receivers ran RIGHT by them, OR, they were totally vacating the middle allowing Thomas to hit someone right in the center of our D. This system REQUIRES your LBs to know what the F*CK they are doing, and ours DONT. Our LBs are TOTALLY lost. Which is making EVERYTHING worse.

 

[I'm Hurt Dawg]

We have an LT passrusher in McCord. The Cowboys with Ware and Colts with Freeney did not care that they couldn't cover or play the run as long as they got to the QB.

 

[drifters1234]

Dont forget to mention that Temple sucked for so many years and were in the Big East, but then while in the MAC, thats when the team looked like they had improved so drastically when in reality they were just playing less talented opponents.

I'm not sure I give so much credence to that, as much as the fact that these guys are great recruiters, and they had more talent eventually than some other teams.

The amazing thing is if they just ran AGs 3-4 man or D's 4-3 zone, they'd probably solve most of their issues. Combining the systems has basically been a huge fail at the BCS level.

I'm not questioning, just very curious. Where did u hear that the 4-3 is Donofrio's defense and Golden's is the 3-4.

If that is true, then that may be the silver lining. Bc theoretically, Golden could do some soul searching after the season, and realize trying to run two defenses at the college level is too complicated, and it results in no defense. And then just shifting exclusively to the 4-3 would be relatively simple.

 

[ssj4cane]

Dont forget to mention that Temple sucked for so many years and were in the Big East, but then while in the MAC, thats when the team looked like they had improved so drastically when in reality they were just playing less talented opponents.

I'm not sure I give so much credence to that, as much as the fact that these guys are great recruiters, and they had more talent eventually than some other teams.

The amazing thing is if they just ran AGs 3-4 man or D's 4-3 zone, they'd probably solve most of their issues. Combining the systems has basically been a huge fail at the BCS level.

I'm not questioning, just very curious. Where did u hear that the 4-3 is Donofrio's defense and Golden's is the 3-4.

If that is true, then that may be the silver lining. Bc theoretically, Golden could do some soul searching after the season, and realize trying to run two defenses at the college level is too complicated, and it results in no defense. And then just shifting exclusively to the 4-3 would be relatively simple.

I don't know if any of that is true but **** if it doesn't make some sense. I don't know why the **** we don't just run the **** 3-4. We have the guys to do it. Chick/Green, Porter/Renfrow, Pierre/Robinson up front. Aqm and McCord outside with Denzel and gaines in the middle. Get AQM and McCord on the field.

 

[Loafers]

Serious question. Is the defense something that nobody has ever run before? I mean, to me there has to be some disconnect somewhere. I would assume that while they add their own wrinkles to a previous coaches defense that this is something that has been run many times over. With that said why is there nobody covering the crossing routes? This has to be unique to Miami's d as no coach would ever run this defense again once they saw how easy it was to beat. Why are the flats open by 15 yds on every play? Again I doubt any coach that has run this d in the past would give this up so easily. Many have questioned having the LBs covering the crossing pattern across the field but I thought we played zone, so shouldnt the wr just get passed along as he crosses the field? This has to go beyond just bad scheme or guys spot dropping or talent. I would really like to know from those that are knowledgeable.

Yes and no. The concepts are nothing weird, but the way they are employing them doesn't make sense or work.

Care to expound on this if possible. I mean, are you saying that they purposely wtch the film and agree as a unit that leaving the flats WIDE OPEN all game is the best approach? Say what you want about how poor the scheme is, I think it is FAR worse that they watch the game film and dont change anything.

 

[CANE4LIFE]

I said towards the beginning of the year, that I thought we had switched over to a 3-4 way too soon. We dont have the personnel to run that system. I dont think the 3-4 is an inherently bad scheme or that it cant work, but its obvious something is not working right here. Our guys look totally lost out there.

 

[FullyERicht]

Dont forget to mention that Temple sucked for so many years and were in the Big East, but then while in the MAC, thats when the team looked like they had improved so drastically when in reality they were just playing less talented opponents.

I'm not sure I give so much credence to that, as much as the fact that these guys are great recruiters, and they had more talent eventually than some other teams.

The amazing thing is if they just ran AGs 3-4 man or D's 4-3 zone, they'd probably solve most of their issues. Combining the systems has basically been a huge fail at the BCS level.

I'm not questioning, just very curious. Where did u hear that the 4-3 is Donofrio's defense and Golden's is the 3-4.

If that is true, then that may be the silver lining. Bc theoretically, Golden could do some soul searching after the season, and realize trying to run two defenses at the college level is too complicated, and it results in no defense. And then just shifting exclusively to the 4-3 would be relatively simple.

Didnt hear i, it's inferred from what I see and from their backgrounds.

Coach D played in Sandusky's 4-3 cover 3 zone blitz system, and coached DBs under Schiano (who was a PSU DB coach before coming to Miami).

Al Golden was a DC for Al Groh and ran Groh's Parcells 3-4.

They then combined the two systems, and as WCD has stated, they use Goldens front (3-4 2 gap) with Donofrios cover 3 back end. That is their base defense. Then on 3rd down, they often invert it, and play a 4-3 single gap, with off man coverage and two deep, or Cover 3 or quarters. The result is no pass rush, consistent blown assignments, and a billion underneath routes.

 

[ramcanes]

THe issue was apparent to Paul Johnson when he fired Al Groh mid-season. Complex system being implemented too fast for the players to grasp Remember, GT having the same issue with players lost when they played us.



Groh's defense has been struggling mightily thus far in 2012, ranking 89th in points allowed (30.2) and 90th in yards allowed with 431 per contest. Coach Paul Johnson explained why he felt it was time for a change, per From The Rumble Seat:

"This morning, I took some time and watched the game tape and went over it. There's no question Al knows defense, but the communication part wasn't transcending to the field. Lots of errors, struggles getting lined up, errors that kept repeating themselves. As I said a couple weeks ago, I don't think he forgot everything he knows about defense."


"Groh has plenty of experience, once the coach of the New York Jets and more recently, the Virginia Cavaliers. However, Johnson felt it was time to move on."Al's very smart. The problem was what was in Al's head just wasn't transcending on the field."


Whatever the issue was, resolving it paid off for the Jackets.

In five games against FBS opponents, Groh's defense surrendered 468.6 yards per game, which would've ranked No. 109 in the country if it had carried on all year. That includes an overtime game and tough offenses in Miami and Clemson, but also a 510-yard game against the Sun Belt's third- or fourth-best team.

In eight games against FBS opponents, interim coordinator Charles Kelly's defense gave up 331.25 yards per game, which would've ranked No. 18 in the country. Those opponents included Georgia, Florida State, North Carolina, Duke and USC.

 

[spacenegroes]

Dont forget to mention that Temple sucked for so many years and were in the Big East, but then while in the MAC, thats when the team looked like they had improved so drastically when in reality they were just playing less talented opponents.

I'm not sure I give so much credence to that, as much as the fact that these guys are great recruiters, and they had more talent eventually than some other teams.

The amazing thing is if they just ran AGs 3-4 man or D's 4-3 zone, they'd probably solve most of their issues. Combining the systems has basically been a huge fail at the BCS level.

I'm not questioning, just very curious. Where did u hear that the 4-3 is Donofrio's defense and Golden's is the 3-4.

If that is true, then that may be the silver lining. Bc theoretically, Golden could do some soul searching after the season, and realize trying to run two defenses at the college level is too complicated, and it results in no defense. And then just shifting exclusively to the 4-3 would be relatively simple.

Didnt hear i, it's inferred from what I see and from their backgrounds.

Coach D played in Sandusky's 4-3 cover 3 zone blitz system, and coached DBs under Schiano (who was a PSU DB coach before coming to Miami).

Al Golden was a DC for Al Groh and ran Groh's Parcells 3-4.

They then combined the two systems, and as WCD has stated, they use Goldens front (3-4 2 gap) with Donofrios cover 3 back end. That is their base defense. Then on 3rd down, they often invert it, and play a 4-3 single gap, with off man coverage and two deep, or Cover 3 or quarters. The result is no pass rush, consistent blown assignments, and a billion underneath routes.

if this **** is true, and they are creating a hybrid defense nobody ever ****** been successful with before, i have some hope. if they're not too proud or stubborn, they can just get rid of the ******* thing, simplify, and after 3-4 years of success, and a streamlined process of coaching this simplified system, if they want to slowly mix in an alternate system part-time they can work on it.

but honestly trying totally new **** like this needs to happen at small schools, where they got nothing to lose already. if your best season at temple you still never won the ****** MAC with this, you better not bring it to miami. if youre urban meyer and you've been wildly successful with your new system at bowling green, THEN utah, then yeah, go for it at UF, but if the jury's still out on it at ******* temple, then **** off witht hat bull****.

 

[FullyERicht]

They did try it at Temple, and it "worked".

But only after kids are in their system for YEARS, and only against MAC coaching staffs, and only when they started out recruiting their MAC opponents.

 

[DeadPoets]

They did try it at Temple, and it "worked".

But only after kids are in their system for YEARS, and only against MAC coaching staffs, and only when they started out recruiting their MAC opponents.

And even then they couldn't win the MAC or beat a team with winning record in conference,

 

[CaneMutiny06]

They did try it at Temple, and it "worked".

But only after kids are in their system for YEARS, and only against MAC coaching staffs, and only when they started out recruiting their MAC opponents.

Pretty sure they had good games against non-MAC staffs, including UConn and Penn State. They also played UCLA in a bowl game and their defense faired well.

 

[niuvalleycane]

Dont forget to mention that Temple sucked for so many years and were in the Big East, but then while in the MAC, thats when the team looked like they had improved so drastically when in reality they were just playing less talented opponents.

I'm not sure I give so much credence to that, as much as the fact that these guys are great recruiters, and they had more talent eventually than some other teams.

The amazing thing is if they just ran AGs 3-4 man or D's 4-3 zone, they'd probably solve most of their issues. Combining the systems has basically been a huge fail at the BCS level.

I'm not questioning, just very curious. Where did u hear that the 4-3 is Donofrio's defense and Golden's is the 3-4.

If that is true, then that may be the silver lining. Bc theoretically, Golden could do some soul searching after the season, and realize trying to run two defenses at the college level is too complicated, and it results in no defense. And then just shifting exclusively to the 4-3 would be relatively simple.

Didnt hear i, it's inferred from what I see and from their backgrounds.

Coach D played in Sandusky's 4-3 cover 3 zone blitz system, and coached DBs under Schiano (who was a PSU DB coach before coming to Miami).

Al Golden was a DC for Al Groh and ran Groh's Parcells 3-4.

They then combined the two systems, and as WCD has stated, they use Goldens front (3-4 2 gap) with Donofrios cover 3 back end. That is their base defense. Then on 3rd down, they often invert it, and play a 4-3 single gap, with off man coverage and two deep, or Cover 3 or quarters. The result is no pass rush, consistent blown assignments, and a billion underneath routes.

if this **** is true, and they are creating a hybrid defense nobody ever ****in been successful with before, i have some hope. if they're not too proud or stubborn, they can just get rid of the ****ing thing, simplify, and after 3-4 years of success, and a streamlined process of coaching this simplified system, if they want to slowly mix in an alternate system part-time they can work on it.

but honestly trying totally new **** like this needs to happen at small schools, where they got nothing to lose already. if your best season at temple you still never won the ****in MAC with this, you better not bring it to miami. if youre urban meyer and you've been wildly successful with your new system at bowling green, THEN utah, then yeah, go for it at UF, but if the jury's still out on it at ****ing temple, then **** off witht hat bull****.

if they can check their egos, then yes...

 

[moshated305]

Gunter also effed up on the first running TD. Was clueless as to where he should be, and then remember when it was too late he had the RB who waltzed into the EZ.

This is all too common. There was even a play where our defense was still in a huddle when VT snapped the ball. We are confused way too often and the dumb asses on the sideline never think a timeout is needed.

 

[ArchersFury]

How about our DL getting blown off the ball every play. I watched chickillo the entire game he's awful does nothing but bull rush.

 

[CaneAlmighty]

OP hit it on the head.