X/O questions - now with more OCs!

[Arehel]

Follow-up question for the morning crowd - as an OC, do you give your QB a group of plays to run and let him choose based on what he sees, or do you give him a single play to run? Same kinda question applies to audibles - how do you construct a package of audibles and how are they implemented in a game?

I'm a big fan of just calling the play and letting the offense run it regardless. Let the coaches figure out what the defense is doing and let the players play.
It's understandable if you got a 4 or 5 year qb to let him do what he wants because you've worked together for so long but that rarely happens, think Andrew Luck, even Bridgewater, but that offense wasn't as complicated.
In a year or two it's hard for a guy to understand why things happens. The qb legitimately has to be an OC on the field, think Drew Brees, but even he was lost without Sean Payton.

 

[jerzeycane]

I got my popcorn out and I'm loving this thread

 

[Coach Macho]

Follow-up question for the morning crowd - as an OC, do you give your QB a group of plays to run and let him choose based on what he sees, or do you give him a single play to run? Same kinda question applies to audibles - how do you construct a package of audibles and how are they implemented in a game?

I'm a big fan of just calling the play and letting the offense run it regardless. Let the coaches figure out what the defense is doing and let the players play.
It's understandable if you got a 4 or 5 year qb to let him do what he wants because you've worked together for so long but that rarely happens, think Andrew Luck, even Bridgewater, but that offense wasn't as complicated.
In a year or two it's hard for a guy to understand why things happens. The qb legitimately has to be an OC on the field, think Drew Brees, but even he was lost without Sean Payton.

IMO that gives the offense little to no versatility. One of the reason spread offenses are so hard to defend is because they adjust on the fly depending on the pre-snap look that the defense gives them. You have WR's running conversion routes depending on what coverage the Corner is playing and etc. It's self-adjusting.

 

[Arehel]

Follow-up question for the morning crowd - as an OC, do you give your QB a group of plays to run and let him choose based on what he sees, or do you give him a single play to run? Same kinda question applies to audibles - how do you construct a package of audibles and how are they implemented in a game?

I'm a big fan of just calling the play and letting the offense run it regardless. Let the coaches figure out what the defense is doing and let the players play.
It's understandable if you got a 4 or 5 year qb to let him do what he wants because you've worked together for so long but that rarely happens, think Andrew Luck, even Bridgewater, but that offense wasn't as complicated.
In a year or two it's hard for a guy to understand why things happens. The qb legitimately has to be an OC on the field, think Drew Brees, but even he was lost without Sean Payton.

IMO that gives the offense little to no versatility. One of the reason spread offenses are so hard to defend is because they adjust on the fly depending on the pre-snap look that the defense gives them. You have WR's running conversion routes depending on what coverage the Corner is playing and etc. It's self-adjusting.

Not necessarily. What if I run a a 4wr set balanced with singleback out of gun, I give the qb a man beater routes on one side and a zone beater routes on the other. If you want you can have those routes plus a zone read, all in one call and you tell the qb to pick one based on presnap reads.
With this the oline would be running the zone same with the tailback, but may not necessarily run it.

The biggest strength of a spread offense is the ability to strike any point on the field, not the adjustment, you can do qb call adjustment in any offense. The Patriots offense rarely makes on the line calls for an example. A significant amount of nfl don't do checks and they run spread concepts.

 

[LuCane]

Follow-up question for the morning crowd - as an OC, do you give your QB a group of plays to run and let him choose based on what he sees, or do you give him a single play to run? Same kinda question applies to audibles - how do you construct a package of audibles and how are they implemented in a game?

I'm a big fan of just calling the play and letting the offense run it regardless. Let the coaches figure out what the defense is doing and let the players play.
It's understandable if you got a 4 or 5 year qb to let him do what he wants because you've worked together for so long but that rarely happens, think Andrew Luck, even Bridgewater, but that offense wasn't as complicated.
In a year or two it's hard for a guy to understand why things happens. The qb legitimately has to be an OC on the field, think Drew Brees, but even he was lost without Sean Payton.

IMO that gives the offense little to no versatility. One of the reason spread offenses are so hard to defend is because they adjust on the fly depending on the pre-snap look that the defense gives them. You have WR's running conversion routes depending on what coverage the Corner is playing and etc. It's self-adjusting.

Not necessarily. What if I run a a 4wr set balanced with singleback out of gun, I give the qb a man beater routes on one side and a zone beater routes on the other. If you want you can have those routes plus a zone read, all in one call and you tell the qb to pick one based on presnap reads.
With this the oline would be running the zone same with the tailback, but may not necessarily run it.

The biggest strength of a spread offense is the ability to strike any point on the field, not the adjustment, you can do qb call adjustment in any offense. The Patriots offense rarely makes on the line calls for an example. A significant amount of nfl don't do checks and they run spread concepts.

While that may be true, a significant part of what a lot of spread teams do is simultaneous reading of the defense by the WR and QB. The obvious example is the 4 Vert concept we've already referenced. And, again, it's not so much about the play but about its versatility when you combine it with other plays. For those who are curious about the options and reading being done in a concept like this, here you go:

 

[killa1storm]

Good ****. To add to the audibles discussion, what do you guys do upfront in that situation.

In school I know our oline was always given one thing and they'd run it regardless. Like if we called inside zone, the oline was blocking inside zone. Of course the QB would have the option to throw it out wide if they were playing off, playaction it, etc. I found that made our playaction game deadly because packaged with those other plays everything looked the same upfront.

Wildcat how would you counter that as a defensive coach as far as keys for your players go? What rules do you have for that?

 

[ghost2]

Lu, in the 4 vert concept you described above, what are the determining factors as a WR in knowing when/how to alter your route? Are you reading the CB's hips? Backpedal v. jam? How much can you glean pre-snap vs. post-snap?

(I'm totally loving how this thread turned out, btw!)

 

[killa1storm]

Lu, in the 4 vert concept you described above, what are the determining factors as a WR in knowing when/how to alter your route? Are you reading the CB's hips? Backpedal v. jam? How much can you glean pre-snap vs. post-snap?

(I'm totally loving how this thread turned out, btw!)

Not Lu but really the only guys 'reading' in 4 vert is the slot guys. The two outside guys take the outside hip of the corner from 5 yards on. Their route must be as close to the sideline as possible to force the safeties to overplay to the hash.

From there the slot guys are reading both the MLB to guage his depth and the safeties. If the safety widens to the hash then their vert basically turns into more of a post route. That's not the rule for both though as they'd obviously cross each others path and throw off the spacing of the route. We were taught to both read the MBLB for depth and if his depth is deep then one of us essentially run a post/sit down in front of him to hold him while the other slot whose vert has now become a post runs behind him to give the QB two targets and own the middle of the field.

 

[ghost2]

Thanks killa!

 

[hollyhood27]

Lu, in the 4 vert concept you described above, what are the determining factors as a WR in knowing when/how to alter your route? Are you reading the CB's hips? Backpedal v. jam? How much can you glean pre-snap vs. post-snap?

(I'm totally loving how this thread turned out, btw!)

the 2 seams route its easy, 2 hi look have 1 them run a little bender or a dig. outisde guys give a depth and if the corner is still over top of them break it of into a comeback.

the number 1 key to running 4 verts is having the WR's hit their landmarks. bottom of the numbers for the outside guys (you need room to allow for a natural fade) and down the hash for the inside guys.

One summer during 7on7 leach had his offence run nothing but 4 verticals. (he actually calls the play 7= touchdown)

 

[Gatorhater]

Wow. This is the most informative post I have read. Thank all of you guys who actually know something about football. Very impressed.

 

[LuCane]

Lu, in the 4 vert concept you described above, what are the determining factors as a WR in knowing when/how to alter your route? Are you reading the CB's hips? Backpedal v. jam? How much can you glean pre-snap vs. post-snap?

(I'm totally loving how this thread turned out, btw!)

Depends on the coverage. Outside guys are really just looking to get up field and give themselves enough room to fade. Inside guys depend on Safety look. Hence, why it's really important to disguise coverages (on defense, obviously) pre-snap. Much easier for an offense to get its timing down and have room to work with when they can "get on the same page" or whatever pre-snap. At a simplistic level, I've seen the inside guy read single high or 2 deep and either post or stay in the seam. As for breaking off, it's pretty much about depth.

As you can see, this stuff requires an insane amount of timing. I appreciate it.

 

[LuCane]

Lu, in the 4 vert concept you described above, what are the determining factors as a WR in knowing when/how to alter your route? Are you reading the CB's hips? Backpedal v. jam? How much can you glean pre-snap vs. post-snap?

(I'm totally loving how this thread turned out, btw!)

the 2 seams route its easy, 2 hi look have 1 them run a little bender or a dig. outisde guys give a depth and if the corner is still over top of them break it of into a comeback.

the number 1 key to running 4 verts is having the WR's hit their landmarks. bottom of the numbers for the outside guys (you need room to allow for a natural fade) and down the hash for the inside guys.

One summer during 7on7 leach had his offence run nothing but 4 verticals. (he actually calls the play 7= touchdown)

There you go. You had it answered already. Maybe I'm the one who is off, but I believe Leach calls it "6." Defenses tend to adjust to Cover 4 or even some variation of Man. If you're in Cover 3 against this type of attack, you better pray your LBs can bump inside guys off and/or your front 4 is doing work.

 

[Arehel]

Most defenses now, well elite ones, pretty much adjust their coverage based off route recognition.
The coach will call basic cover two, but if, for example the wr the corner is lined up against run a streak and no one is in the flats, he's gonna follow the streak. Easy example.
Alabama does this.
I think that this is why many of you are giving d'onofrio a hard time. He'll call that type of defense but his players aren't recognizing route concepts, and that's really hard to coach and understand, but once they get it life is good, and you don't need to change personelle.
What this route concept recognition does, well supposed to is make the qb make the hardest throw.
In Canada this coverage concept is called match coverage, it basically protect you from ever getting beat deep and the linebackers jobs are to wall off anything that goes over the middle, ie. overs, drags, ins and so forth. I don't know how it works in the states but I'm sure it's extremely similar.

 

[LuCane]

Most defenses now, well elite ones, pretty much adjust their coverage based off route recognition.
The coach will call basic cover two, but if, for example the wr the corner is lined up against run a streak and no one is in the flats, he's gonna follow the streak. Easy example.
Alabama does this.
I think that this is why many of you are giving d'onofrio a hard time. He'll call that type of defense but his players aren't recognizing route concepts, and that's really hard to coach and understand, but once they get it life is good, and you don't need to change personelle.
What this route concept recognition does, well supposed to is make the qb make the hardest throw.
In Canada this coverage concept is called match coverage, it basically protect you from ever getting beat deep and the linebackers jobs are to wall off anything that goes over the middle, ie. overs, drags, ins and so forth. I don't know how it works in the states but I'm sure it's extremely similar.

For others who want to read a little more about pattern matching and how Saban (Beli) came about it (or at least began to rely upon it), read this:

http://www.elevenwarriors.com/2013/...ege-football-the-alabama-crimson-tide-defense

It was, along with other things, an answer to the issues with a single high Safety and the seams.

 

[am1640]

Most defenses now, well elite ones, pretty much adjust their coverage based off route recognition.
The coach will call basic cover two, but if, for example the wr the corner is lined up against run a streak and no one is in the flats, he's gonna follow the streak. Easy example.
Alabama does this.
I think that this is why many of you are giving d'onofrio a hard time. He'll call that type of defense but his players aren't recognizing route concepts, and that's really hard to coach and understand, but once they get it life is good, and you don't need to change personelle.
What this route concept recognition does, well supposed to is make the qb make the hardest throw.
In Canada this coverage concept is called match coverage, it basically protect you from ever getting beat deep and the linebackers jobs are to wall off anything that goes over the middle, ie. overs, drags, ins and so forth. I don't know how it works in the states but I'm sure it's extremely similar.

we tried doing pattern matching last season and we had a big ole debate about it last year because some were dead set on the fact that we just do drop zone just like people think we just do 2 gap only. I even posted screenshots of our players doing it. Problem is like with most of the things we did last season we sucked at it as a team (coaches and players). Hopefully they all have finally figured it out (teaching it and learning it) because that would do wonders for this defense.

 

[hollyhood27]

Lu, in the 4 vert concept you described above, what are the determining factors as a WR in knowing when/how to alter your route? Are you reading the CB's hips? Backpedal v. jam? How much can you glean pre-snap vs. post-snap?

(I'm totally loving how this thread turned out, btw!)

the 2 seams route its easy, 2 hi look have 1 them run a little bender or a dig. outisde guys give a depth and if the corner is still over top of them break it of into a comeback.

the number 1 key to running 4 verts is having the WR's hit their landmarks. bottom of the numbers for the outside guys (you need room to allow for a natural fade) and down the hash for the inside guys.

One summer during 7on7 leach had his offence run nothing but 4 verticals. (he actually calls the play 7= touchdown)

There you go. You had it answered already. Maybe I'm the one who is off, but I believe Leach calls it "6." Defenses tend to adjust to Cover 4 or even some variation of Man. If you're in Cover 3 against this type of attack, you better pray your LBs can bump inside guys off and/or your front 4 is doing work.

yea that's it. I knew it had something to do with scoring. My favorite play name is what tony franklin calls his quick smash concept that he runs near the Redzone (6 yard corners by the inside guys and outside guys run quick ins, back flares to a call side). He calls it "69" bc if you run it right you will score....not kidding.

 

[caneforlifeforreal]

Since this discussion is leading that way anyway, let's talk about that a bit - is there a legit rationale for toss/stretch plays to the short side? Is it a matchup decision? I can't believe it's just haphazard (even I'm not that jaded yet.)

The hash marks in college football are much wider than the NFL. When the ball is on a hash, you have larger surpluses and deficits in terms of field width yardage (in the NFL, the ball is pretty much always in the middle of the field). That allows defenses to specialize their positions. You often see players consistently lined up on the boundary side or field side, especially corners (we align based on field in our 50 front). Your boundary end can be a linebacker/end hybrid. Your sam (or field linebacker) can be a linebacker/safety hybrid.

In terms of running to the boundary, you may get better blocking match-ups, but more importantly, you might get better alignment match-ups. Double flanker (balanced 2 te, 2 wr set) is one of the hardest formations to defend with a college defense. You can balance up the defense and take advantage of their automatic alignment rules (for example, when facing a 43/44 over (Vtech), forcing a $ to come down into the box and be a force player to the boundary--or even better force the $ to play his force assignment from a deep quarters alignment).

the most fundamental difference between the NFL and college is the hash mark placement. And this post nailed it

 

[dolpterry]

Lewis would be great also

 

[Cash]

For coaches on the board, or just those with a better understanding of the game than me (most everyone) - how do you feel about the bubble screen? How should it be utilized in a game plan? Is it a staple of the offense, or a wrinkle? How can it be built off of throughout the course of a game?

There are many teams whose bread-and-butter is the bubble screen - I've never been a huge fan, but only because it tends to be a very sink-or-swim kind of play, but obviously when executed it can be deadly (*cough* Stacy Coley *cough*)


What do you think?

We were working on them at practice today until one our DB's took a compound fracture just above his right ankle. Reminded me of ML's injury. Foot was 90° from the leg. Gonna be a long road back for that boy.

Coley is so elusive and when we get good blockers in front you're not catching him.