what i dont get about coach golden and coach d

[CANE4LIFE]

The only explanation is that: before the Shapiro mess hit, Golden was balls to the wall - to hit the ground running and try to make a splash from the get go.....after the mass of suspensions and distractions Golden made his decision to stay but essentially threw up his hands and said **** it regarding any timetable for improvement and decided it was going to be his way over the long haul. If that meant riding out this awful senior class (and giving them carte blanche for their loyalty out of principal) while prepping the program for his system while recruiting his personnel.....so be it.

here is the thing though. This SR class is Golden's guys. They've been in the system 3 whole years. They might not be perfect fits. but with the amount of time that Gaines has been in this system was there nothing he could be taught to be better? Did the coaching staff really milk everything they could out of this group?

Nah dude. Im not hanging this class on Golden. If Golden was fired tommorow, think about the class that the next coach would be inheriting. EVEN if we lost some commits, thing about the class he has put together already. Now compare that to what Golden inherited here when he arrived. Shannon had FOUR kids committed. FOUR. Golden arrived in a NEW city, with nothing but a few weeks to slap a class together, and had all of FOUR kids to work with. By then everything was gone. It was a mad scramble just to grab any bodies we could. That's how we ended up with JAGs like Darrius Smith, and a lot of that "fodder" which ended up leaving the program. They were just bodies we had to grab. I dont blame Golden for this Senior class. I think he did get about as much out of these guys as he could. **** you mention Jimmy Gaines. Gaines BEST offer when we got him, was from BUFFALO. Kid was like a 2 star nobody. And while he's a total JAG and has no business starting here, he is what he is, and hasnt been the worst player on our defense, though he's been close a few times.

THEN, couple that with Golden beginning his tenure, by having 8 of his best players and starters suspended for anywhere from 1-8 games his first season in, as he gets the Shapiro sh*tstorm full in the face. Jacory suspended. Olivier Vernon suspended. Forston. Total mess. Then the NEXT year, another kick in the b@lls, Forston, Lamar Miller, and a host of other guys that we desperately needed as we had little depth to begin with, decide to leave early. Then last year, another kick in the b@lls, Eddie Johnson cant stop being a psycho and bolts, Paul and Terry get themselves booted too, and with it, 2/3rds of our Linebacking corps is basically destroyed. Forcing us to field a converted mid level safety, and the kid from Buffalo as the only help for DP. Oh, and were forced to bring in a backup DT from UVa, a 5th year DE with a broken foot from Wisconsin, and we tried the JUCO LB (Bond) just to have guys who could contribute and privide depth things were so bad.

I dont think people realize some of the sh*tty deals Golden has inherited here. Yes a lot of it had to do with the NCAA mess, which everyone now belittles as a big joke, when it wasnt. But much of it was just bad luck, and getting f*cked over by selfish kids, sleazy agents, troubled kids, etc. The guy has really been dealt some bad hands here.

In the end, as D$ says, and correctly, you are what your record says you are. You keep losing, and your out, excuses or no excuses. But in fairness to the man, he really has been dealt some sh8tty situations here, worse than any coach since Butch, and Butch somewhat knew what he was getting into. Im just saying that for all the cats who cant stop bashing AG. Yes there are plenty of faults and mistakes he's made, and the DC situation really is a problem, but I think people need to have some perspective and realize what the guy has been dealing with here.

 

[Consigliere]

What Golden did at UVA is another myth that gets perpetuated around here. He peaked at 18 in 2003, but otherwise consistently fielded much worse defenses. This is what his defenses ranked:

2001: 93
2002: 100
2003: 67
2004: 18
2005: 60

The year he posted the vaunted 18th defense is an outlier in a trend of mediocre to poor defenses.

Honestly, I am not a fan of the Total D stat as the indicator of success but that is not my point. I get what you are saying.

I am just confused and here is why. I don't care too much about his defenses between 2001-2005...That was 8+ years ago.

I don't understand Temple and how they did have success there.

 

[Dghustla]

The only explanation is that: before the Shapiro mess hit, Golden was balls to the wall - to hit the ground running and try to make a splash from the get go.....after the mass of suspensions and distractions Golden made his decision to stay but essentially threw up his hands and said **** it regarding any timetable for improvement and decided it was going to be his way over the long haul. If that meant riding out this awful senior class (and giving them carte blanche for their loyalty out of principal) while prepping the program for his system while recruiting his personnel.....so be it.

here is the thing though. This SR class is Golden's guys. They've been in the system 3 whole years. They might not be perfect fits. but with the amount of time that Gaines has been in this system was there nothing he could be taught to be better? Did the coaching staff really milk everything they could out of this group?

Nah dude. Im not hanging this class on Golden. If Golden was fired tommorow, think about the class that the next coach would be inheriting. EVEN if we lost some commits, thing about the class he has put together already. Now compare that to what Golden inherited here when he arrived. Shannon had FOUR kids committed. FOUR. Golden arrived in a NEW city, with nothing but a few weeks to slap a class together, and had all of FOUR kids to work with. By then everything was gone. It was a mad scramble just to grab any bodies we could. That's how we ended up with JAGs like Darrius Smith, and a lot of that "fodder" which ended up leaving the program. They were just bodies we had to grab. I dont blame Golden for this Senior class. I think he did get about as much out of these guys as he could. **** you mention Jimmy Gaines. Gaines BEST offer when we got him, was from BUFFALO. Kid was like a 2 star nobody. And while he's a total JAG and has no business starting here, he is what he is, and hasnt been the worst player on our defense, though he's been close a few times.

THEN, couple that with Golden beginning his tenure, by having 8 of his best players and starters suspended for anywhere from 1-8 games his first season in, as he gets the Shapiro sh*tstorm full in the face. Jacory suspended. Olivier Vernon suspended. Forston. Total mess. Then the NEXT year, another kick in the b@lls, Forston, Lamar Miller, and a host of other guys that we desperately needed as we had little depth to begin with, decide to leave early. Then last year, another kick in the b@lls, Eddie Johnson cant stop being a psycho and bolts, Paul and Terry get themselves booted too, and with it, 2/3rds of our Linebacking corps is basically destroyed. Forcing us to field a converted mid level safety, and the kid from Buffalo as the only help for DP. Oh, and were forced to bring in a backup DT from UVa, a 5th year DE with a broken foot from Wisconsin, and we tried the JUCO LB (Bond) just to have guys who could contribute and privide depth things were so bad.

I dont think people realize some of the sh*tty deals Golden has inherited here. Yes a lot of it had to do with the NCAA mess, which everyone now belittles as a big joke, when it wasnt. But much of it was just bad luck, and getting f*cked over by selfish kids, sleazy agents, troubled kids, etc. The guy has really been dealt some bad hands here.

In the end, as D$ says, and correctly, you are what your record says you are. You keep losing, and your out, excuses or no excuses. But in fairness to the man, he really has been dealt some sh8tty situations here, worse than any coach since Butch, and Butch somewhat knew what he was getting into. Im just saying that for all the cats who cant stop bashing AG. Yes there are plenty of faults and mistakes he's made, and the DC situation really is a problem, but I think people need to have some perspective and realize what the guy has been dealing with here.

I like what Golden is doing on the recruiting front no one can argue that. what he inherited was crap. these SRs might be one of the worst group of SRs at a BCS conference program. But once again, He choice to focus on bulking up gaines, cornilous, highsmith,perryman,peirre etc. instead of training them to be physically more explosive. Jacory,Streeter, Vernon those weren't Golden's guys. These SRs chose to stay at the U and they have been under Golden for 3.5 full seasons. These are his players.

I think they have developed some of the players in the secondary very well. The front 7 and situation play calling is what really concern me.

 

[McGahee2TheHouse]

Temple
2006: 117
2007: 44
2008: 81
2009: 32
2010: 16

Miami
2011: 45
2012: 116
2013: 90

At his next two stops, not much different. At Temple, he produced mediocre defenses, with the one outlier 16th ranking. Here, as everyone knows has been pretty bad.

So in all of his years of coaching, he has produced a top 20 defense twice. The rest are mediocre, some completely laughable. Al is simply not a great defensive coach.

 

[McGahee2TheHouse]

What Golden did at UVA is another myth that gets perpetuated around here. He peaked at 18 in 2003, but otherwise consistently fielded much worse defenses. This is what his defenses ranked:

2001: 93
2002: 100
2003: 67
2004: 18
2005: 60

The year he posted the vaunted 18th defense is an outlier in a trend of mediocre to poor defenses.

Honestly, I am not a fan of the Total D stat as the indicator of success but that is not my point. I get what you are saying.

I am just confused and here is why. I don't care too much about his defenses between 2001-2005...That was 8+ years ago.

I don't understand Temple and how they did have success there.

Because whether you want to admit it or not, yards do matter. It's part of being a great defense. If you do not let them past the 50, they will not score. That should be the goal of any great defense. Not, "let's give up a bunch of yards until the red zone and then put a lot of pressure on ourselves."

 

[miamimike]

The only explanation is that: before the Shapiro mess hit, Golden was balls to the wall - to hit the ground running and try to make a splash from the get go.....after the mass of suspensions and distractions Golden made his decision to stay but essentially threw up his hands and said **** it regarding any timetable for improvement and decided it was going to be his way over the long haul. If that meant riding out this awful senior class (and giving them carte blanche for their loyalty out of principal) while prepping the program for his system while recruiting his personnel.....so be it.

here is the thing though. This SR class is Golden's guys. They've been in the system 3 whole years. They might not be perfect fits. but with the amount of time that Gaines has been in this system was there nothing he could be taught to be better? Did the coaching staff really milk everything they could out of this group?

Nah dude. Im not hanging this class on Golden. If Golden was fired tommorow, think about the class that the next coach would be inheriting. EVEN if we lost some commits, thing about the class he has put together already. Now compare that to what Golden inherited here when he arrived. Shannon had FOUR kids committed. FOUR. Golden arrived in a NEW city, with nothing but a few weeks to slap a class together, and had all of FOUR kids to work with. By then everything was gone. It was a mad scramble just to grab any bodies we could. That's how we ended up with JAGs like Darrius Smith, and a lot of that "fodder" which ended up leaving the program. They were just bodies we had to grab. I dont blame Golden for this Senior class. I think he did get about as much out of these guys as he could. **** you mention Jimmy Gaines. Gaines BEST offer when we got him, was from BUFFALO. Kid was like a 2 star nobody. And while he's a total JAG and has no business starting here, he is what he is, and hasnt been the worst player on our defense, though he's been close a few times.

THEN, couple that with Golden beginning his tenure, by having 8 of his best players and starters suspended for anywhere from 1-8 games his first season in, as he gets the Shapiro sh*tstorm full in the face. Jacory suspended. Olivier Vernon suspended. Forston. Total mess. Then the NEXT year, another kick in the b@lls, Forston, Lamar Miller, and a host of other guys that we desperately needed as we had little depth to begin with, decide to leave early. Then last year, another kick in the b@lls, Eddie Johnson cant stop being a psycho and bolts, Paul and Terry get themselves booted too, and with it, 2/3rds of our Linebacking corps is basically destroyed. Forcing us to field a converted mid level safety, and the kid from Buffalo as the only help for DP. Oh, and were forced to bring in a backup DT from UVa, a 5th year DE with a broken foot from Wisconsin, and we tried the JUCO LB (Bond) just to have guys who could contribute and privide depth things were so bad.

I dont think people realize some of the sh*tty deals Golden has inherited here. Yes a lot of it had to do with the NCAA mess, which everyone now belittles as a big joke, when it wasnt. But much of it was just bad luck, and getting f*cked over by selfish kids, sleazy agents, troubled kids, etc. The guy has really been dealt some bad hands here.

In the end, as D$ says, and correctly, you are what your record says you are. You keep losing, and your out, excuses or no excuses. But in fairness to the man, he really has been dealt some sh8tty situations here, worse than any coach since Butch, and Butch somewhat knew what he was getting into. Im just saying that for all the cats who cant stop bashing AG. Yes there are plenty of faults and mistakes he's made, and the DC situation really is a problem, but I think people need to have some perspective and realize what the guy has been dealing with here.

Great post man!

 

[NVA CANE]

Golden's Total Defensive rankings throughout his career for reference

UVA
2001: 93
2002: 100
2003: 67
2004: 18
2005: 60

Temple
2006: 117
2007: 44
2008: 81
2009: 32
2010: 16

Miami
2011: 45
2012: 116
2013: 90

 

[Consigliere]

Exactly what I was trying to say but so much better. Funny thing is, you will see the exact same trend at Temple. But for some reason people just don't want to hear it.

The trends are way different at Temple, I will use both Total D and Scoring D as a comparison. I used MSN's Chart (http://i39.tinypic.com/21czf41.jpg)

Also, comparing Ranks is not the way to do it, you need to compare the actual numbers (rankings change every year).

UVA

2000-1
TD: 98 w/ 421 YPG
SD: 47 w/ 23 PPG

2001-2
TD: 93 w/ 430 YPG
SC: 74 w/ 27 PPG

2002-3
TD: 100 w/ 424 YPG
SC: 50 w/ 24 PPG

2003-4
TD: 67 w/ 384 YPG
SC: 26 w/ 20 PPG

2004-5
TD: 18 w 313 YPG
SC: 17 w/17 PPG

2005-6
TD: 60 w/ 375 YPG
SC: 40 w/ 23 PPG

AVG Yards Per Game (AYPG): 391 YPG
AVG Points Per Game (APPG): 22 PPG

Temple

2006-7
TD: 117 w/ 452 YPG
SD: 118 w/ 41 PPG

2007-8
TD: 44 w/ 363 YPG
SD: 53 w/ 26 PPG

2008-9
TD: 81 w/ 383 YPG
SD: 47 w/ 23 PPG

2009-10
TD: 32 w/ 334 YPG
SD: 39 w/ 22 PPG

2010-11
TD: 16 w/ 316 YPG
SD: 16 w/ 19 PPG

AVG Yards Per Game (AYPG): 370 YPG
AVG Points Per Game (APPG): 26 PPG

Review: At Temple, the scoring D went down (improved) EVERY year. It was the same thing with the Total D, except for the second year.

 

[Consigliere]

What Golden did at UVA is another myth that gets perpetuated around here. He peaked at 18 in 2003, but otherwise consistently fielded much worse defenses. This is what his defenses ranked:

2001: 93
2002: 100
2003: 67
2004: 18
2005: 60

The year he posted the vaunted 18th defense is an outlier in a trend of mediocre to poor defenses.

Honestly, I am not a fan of the Total D stat as the indicator of success but that is not my point. I get what you are saying.

I am just confused and here is why. I don't care too much about his defenses between 2001-2005...That was 8+ years ago.

I don't understand Temple and how they did have success there.

Because whether you want to admit it or not, yards do matter. It's part of being a great defense. If you do not let them past the 50, they will not score. That should be the goal of any great defense. Not, "let's give up a bunch of yards until the red zone and then put a lot of pressure on ourselves."

That is not my point and I am not debating which stat is more important either. I even used the stats that were provided but don't use the rank use the stat (rankings change year to year and can't be compared properly). But back to the point at hand.

At Temple, his defenses improved in both Total and Scoring D every year (except year 2 for the Total D). How did this happen?

 

[Consigliere]

Golden's Total Defensive rankings throughout his career for reference

UVA
2001: 93
2002: 100
2003: 67
2004: 18
2005: 60

Temple
2006: 117
2007: 44
2008: 81
2009: 32
2010: 16

Miami
2011: 45
2012: 116
2013: 90

You need to compare the actual results not the ranking.

 

[McGahee2TheHouse]

So in the three places he has coached his scoring defenses have only improved at 1 out of the 3. Not to mention, the scoring defense ranks are not impressive. They are mediocre, minus his last and final year. If his defenses, scoring or total have been mediocre and not improved in 2/3 of the places he has coached, it is safe to say that is the type of coach he is.

Typically, you are not going to win championships by giving up 22 or 26 points each game. You need more than an average/good defense in most cases to win big. You can point to Auburn or a few others, but again those are outliers.

 

[Consigliere]

I am not here to debate but the question still remains. We are not disagreeing on the importance if defense either. I just don't get this Temple tenure.

 

[McGahee2TheHouse]

I am not here to debate but the question still remains. We are not disagreeing on the importance if defense either. I just don't get this Temple tenure.

I don't get it either. I would obviously call his tenure at Temple a sort of outlier, but to be fair, he has only been two other places. What is also weird to me, and somewhat disturbing, is that both of his stops at a BCS level conference have been nothing to write home about.

 

[nofxandslayer]

Golden's Total Defensive rankings throughout his career for reference

UVA
2001: 93
2002: 100
2003: 67
2004: 18
2005: 60

Temple
2006: 117
2007: 44
2008: 81
2009: 32
2010: 16

Miami
2011: 45
2012: 116
2013: 90

So based on that we should see a huge jump next year on defense that should rise the year after?

 

[CaneAlmighty]

I am not here to debate but the question still remains. We are not disagreeing on the importance if defense either. I just don't get this Temple tenure.

The historical trends point to the 4th year being the money year.

Hopefully that will happen here but with the improvement continuing into his 5th and beyond.

 

[Consigliere]

I am not here to debate but the question still remains. We are not disagreeing on the importance if defense either. I just don't get this Temple tenure.

I don't get it either. I would obviously call his tenure at Temple a sort of outlier, but to be fair, he has only been two other places. What is also weird to me, and somewhat disturbing, is that both of his stops at a BCS level conference have been nothing to write home about.

[I am in the office all day, so just discussing to waste time.]

I don't think he did that bad at UVA, his D's averaged 22 PPG and 391 YPG. His SD would be ranked 25th and TD would be ranked 55th based on today's rankings. In no way I am saying these are great numbers, but they are not that bad. Even if you get rid of his best year (2004-5), his D allowed 23 PPG and 407 YPG. Honestly, his tenure at UVA was 8 years ago and ended when he was 36. That is a long time ago and things change. He now has to coach the WHOLE team and can't focus on the D.

As for his Temple tenure, his D's averaged 26 PPG and 370 YPG. His SD would be ranked 60th and TD would be ranked 41st based on today's rankings. If you throw out the first year which was clearly an outlier compared to the rest of his numbers, his D allowed 23 PPG and 349 YPG.

It is just perplexing, that is all I am saying.

 

[DrCane]

Dude never won the MAAC despite having better recruiting classes than any other team in the conference.

They are fraud. Period.

Look no further than Al Groh for how successful this system can be.

Fvck all these coaches.

THIS, this, and ONLY this.

I have no problem hiring a MAC coach. Every coach needs to start somewhere. I do have a problem with hiring a MAC coach that did not completely dominate the MAC (much less, never even competed for a MAC championship).

 

[Consigliere]

Dude never won the MAAC despite having better recruiting classes than any other team in the conference.

They are fraud. Period.

Look no further than Al Groh for how successful this system can be.

Fvck all these coaches.

THIS, this, and ONLY this.

I have no problem hiring a MAC coach. Every coach needs to start somewhere. I do have a problem with hiring a MAC coach that did not completely dominate the MAC (much less, never even competed for a MAC championship).

Urban Meyer never dominated the MAC or won the conference. His best finish was 3rd.

 

[DuffleBagYoda]

Exactly what I was trying to say but so much better. Funny thing is, you will see the exact same trend at Temple. But for some reason people just don't want to hear it.

The trends are way different at Temple, I will use both Total D and Scoring D as a comparison. I used MSN's Chart (http://i39.tinypic.com/21czf41.jpg)

Also, comparing Ranks is not the way to do it, you need to compare the actual numbers (rankings change every year).

UVA

2000-1
TD: 98 w/ 421 YPG
SD: 47 w/ 23 PPG

2001-2
TD: 93 w/ 430 YPG
SC: 74 w/ 27 PPG

2002-3
TD: 100 w/ 424 YPG
SC: 50 w/ 24 PPG

2003-4
TD: 67 w/ 384 YPG
SC: 26 w/ 20 PPG

2004-5
TD: 18 w 313 YPG
SC: 17 w/17 PPG

2005-6
TD: 60 w/ 375 YPG
SC: 40 w/ 23 PPG

AVG Yards Per Game (AYPG): 391 YPG
AVG Points Per Game (APPG): 22 PPG

Temple

2006-7
TD: 117 w/ 452 YPG
SD: 118 w/ 41 PPG

2007-8
TD: 44 w/ 363 YPG
SD: 53 w/ 26 PPG

2008-9
TD: 81 w/ 383 YPG
SD: 47 w/ 23 PPG

2009-10
TD: 32 w/ 334 YPG
SD: 39 w/ 22 PPG

2010-11
TD: 16 w/ 316 YPG
SD: 16 w/ 19 PPG

AVG Yards Per Game (AYPG): 370 YPG
AVG Points Per Game (APPG): 26 PPG

Review: At Temple, the scoring D went down (improved) EVERY year. It was the same thing with the Total D, except for the second year.

this is the MAC. all while pulling in the the best recruiting classes in the MAC. STOP PIT

 

[BosCane]

I don't understand Temple and how they did have success there.

Simple, the overall level of competition was so low that any improvements, no matter how small, had a big effect.

He improved their recruiting. He improved their mindset. And maybe he improved their workouts, whatever.

Its like little kids playing tic-tac-toe. You teach one kid a simple but true concept, like focus on the corners, and his win % is going to go way up.

Also, keep in mind that during his time at Temple they never actually beat a good team. They just took care of business against the bad teams.
Not so much "success".....more like he made them competent.