We could take up to 30 in the 2018 class

[mianjomar]

You guys must have some time on your hands but thanks. Interesting.

 

[Canes1968]

I'm well aware of the initial counter rules.

Great, then you know we're not signing 30.

Technically, 30 is still a possibility. It's unlikely, but still a possibility.

The primary point in my OP isn't whether we will take 30. It's simply that we can make room for what we need. Numbers aside, it's unlikely we'd ever sign 30 simply because finding 30 Miami caliber players that want in is difficult.

For argument's sake, 30 is possible. Yes, we could make room. However, around 25 is a more likely number.

And I do agree -- if there ever was a class where you'd like to "make room," the '18 class is it.

But you're going to dig your heels in, and claim that 30 is "technically" a possibility (when it is not). First, since your initial posting did not mention the initial counter rules, then "technically" our number could be 85. Second, after all, we could ALWAYS count 5 against the prior year, so "technically" 30 is always a "possibility". But, of course, that ignores what we have done historically.

But, hey, keep fighting with me about how 30 is "technically possible", when it's not. You built a position allocation (including 2 kickers!!!) based on 30, before someone pointed out the flaw in your logic. So your whole discussion on DTs and Safeties was based on an impossible number.

It's no big deal, but you keep digging your heels.

I don't see you providing any analysis to prove that 30 is impossible. Do you have definitive information on the number of initial counters by year? Do you know specifically how the scholarship sanctions impacted initial counters? I think the answer to both of those questions is no.

What's more likely is that neither of us know whether 30 is "technically" possible. It may or may not be. What I do know is that in the last 5 recruiting cycles, we've signed 14 fewer players than would be allowed under the initial counter rules (this ignores any non-qualifiers). At maximum, the scholarship sanctions took 9 initial counters from us (although some believe it didn't impact initial counters at all), which means we've signed 5 fewer players than would be allowed. Given this, I think it's certainly possible that we could get to 30. Clearly, I'm not digging my heels in on anything. I'm certainly open to the idea that I'm wrong. You on the other hand seem to have dug your heels in, but have offered no analysis to support your position. Ironic.

Also, 30 is not unheard of for us. We signed 33 in 2012 and 29 in 2010.

As for the position allocation, that is simply a rule of thumb. Having 3 kickers on scholarships is a general rule of thumb. There are deviations, especially when it comes to kickers. But by all means, pretend like that was intended to be gospel. Also, my position allocation has nothing to do with how many we can actually take in total. It's purely based on a rule of thumb for numbers by position for an 85 man roster. For example, a good rule of thumb for DTs is 8. If we lose Norton and McIntosh to the draft and Fines transfers, we'd be at 2. That's how you get to a need of 6, which can be filled in a variety of ways.

 

[TheOriginalCane]

Graduate transfers do not count against scholarship numbers.

this is fake news.

they count both towards the 85 total & the yearly 25 initial counters

It's not fake news, and you are both right and wrong.

What you don't understand is the "mid-year replacement rule". And if you read that rule, you would see that a student who graduates mid-year BOTH can be replaced by an initial counter AND remain enrolled at the University AS A GRADUATE STUDENT.

Where you are (technically) correct is that if we are NOT at the 85 number, then we cannot avail ourselves of the mid-year replacement rule.

And what I am not certain of is whether we can "fake" our way to 85 by handing out scholarships to walk-ons.

Let's put this in layman's terms.

We can replace Brad Kaaya with a grad transfer and have it, effectively, NOT count against our 25, but we have to be at 85 scholarships.

By the way, all the times I have been referring to "getting to 85", I have meant a LEGIT 85. Obviously, we could ALWAYS get to 85 simply by giving scholarships to walk-ons.

 

[DerekDohrman]

Graduate transfers do not count against scholarship numbers.

this is fake news.

they count both towards the 85 total & the yearly 25 initial counters

It's not fake news, and you are both right and wrong.

What you don't understand is the "mid-year replacement rule". And if you read that rule, you would see that a student who graduates mid-year BOTH can be replaced by an initial counter AND remain enrolled at the University AS A GRADUATE STUDENT.

Where you are (technically) correct is that if we are NOT at the 85 number, then we cannot avail ourselves of the mid-year replacement rule.

And what I am not certain of is whether we can "fake" our way to 85 by handing out scholarships to walk-ons.

Let's put this in layman's terms.

We can replace Brad Kaaya with a grad transfer and have it, effectively, NOT count against our 25, but we have to be at 85 scholarships.

By the way, all the times I have been referring to "getting to 85", I have meant a LEGIT 85. Obviously, we could ALWAYS get to 85 simply by giving scholarships to walk-ons.

no, its fake news and i understand the mid-year replacement rule just fine:

15.5.6.3.5 Midyear Replacement. [FBS/FCS] A counter who graduates at midyear or who graduates during the previous academic year (including summer) may be replaced by an initial counter, who shall be counted against the initial limit either for the year in which the aid is awarded (if the institution’s annual limit has not been reached) or for the following academic year, or by a student-athlete who was an initial counter in a previous academic year and is returning to the institution after time spent on active duty in the armed services or on an official religious mission. In bowl subdivision football, an institution may use the midyear replacement exception only if it previously has provided financial aid during that academic year to the maximum number of overall counters (85 total counters). In championship subdivision football, an institution may use the midyear replacement exception only if it previously has provided financial aid during that academic year that equals the maximum number of overall equivalencies or overall counters.


there it is in all it's glory.

now, as i was saying within the context of this thread, is that if we get a graduate transfer or just your normal, everyday, run of the mill transfer. that player will count as an initial counter, limiting our 2018 class size by 1 & will end up counting against the 85 number.

 

[duke4heisman]

The 2012 class had 33 with 8 EEs. Referring to the post above and without reading all that jibberish, how does a grad transfer count towards the next year when they wouldn't be there?

 

[westcoastcanes]

**** it, lets go for 40, boys

 

[DerekDohrman]

The 2012 class had 33 with 8 EEs. Referring to the post above and without reading all that jibberish, how does a grad transfer count towards the next year when they wouldn't be there?

and the 2011 class had 21, with 3 EE's counting towards 2010, so 18.

a lot of those 2012 EE's were able to count towards the 2011 class.

& i have the 2012 class at 32, not 33.

EDIT: to answer your question, a grad transfer will take a spot in the 2017 class. That will limit the amount of 2018 EE's we can count backwards towards the currently 4 open spots we have in 2017.

instead of signing 29 for 2018, with 4 EE's counting towards 2017, we only be able to sign 28, with 3 EE's counting towards 2017.

 

[Canes1968]

The 2012 class had 33 with 8 EEs. Referring to the post above and without reading all that jibberish, how does a grad transfer count towards the next year when they wouldn't be there?

and the 2011 class had 21, with 3 EE's counting towards 2010, so 18.

a lot of those 2012 EE's were able to count towards the 2011 class.

& i have the 2012 class at 32, not 33.

33...

Ivery
Blue
Crawford
Lockhard
McCord
Bush
Briscoe
Gunter
Isadora
Terry
Lewis
Jenkins
Dillard
Gadbois
Moore
Dortch
Waters
Witt
Jones
Hamilton
Hoilett
Davis
O'Donnell
Hope
Dewey
Flowers
Kirby
Jean-Louis
Carter
Thompson
Crow
Johnson
Howard

 

[AUcane]

We'll need a stacked OL/DT/DB class next year. We lose a bunch of quality and non-quality OL this year.

 

[The Franchise]

Guys keep claiming 30 is a possibility for 2018. It's absolutely not possible unless we could count 5 EEs from 2018 toward the 25 limit from 2017. That will not be a possibility at all.

 

[DerekDohrman]

The 2012 class had 33 with 8 EEs. Referring to the post above and without reading all that jibberish, how does a grad transfer count towards the next year when they wouldn't be there?

and the 2011 class had 21, with 3 EE's counting towards 2010, so 18.

a lot of those 2012 EE's were able to count towards the 2011 class.

& i have the 2012 class at 32, not 33.

33...

Ivery
Blue
Crawford
Lockhard
McCord
Bush
Briscoe
Gunter
Isadora
Terry
Lewis
Jenkins
Dillard
Gadbois
Moore
Dortch
Waters
Witt
Jones
Hamilton
Hoilett
Davis
O'Donnell
Hope
Dewey
Flowers
Kirby
Jean-Louis
Carter
Thompson
Crow
Johnson
Howard

Jean-Louis never enrolled, so he doesnt register as an initial counter

 

[TheOriginalCane]

Great, then you know we're not signing 30.

Technically, 30 is still a possibility. It's unlikely, but still a possibility.

The primary point in my OP isn't whether we will take 30. It's simply that we can make room for what we need. Numbers aside, it's unlikely we'd ever sign 30 simply because finding 30 Miami caliber players that want in is difficult.

For argument's sake, 30 is possible. Yes, we could make room. However, around 25 is a more likely number.

And I do agree -- if there ever was a class where you'd like to "make room," the '18 class is it.

But you're going to dig your heels in, and claim that 30 is "technically" a possibility (when it is not). First, since your initial posting did not mention the initial counter rules, then "technically" our number could be 85. Second, after all, we could ALWAYS count 5 against the prior year, so "technically" 30 is always a "possibility". But, of course, that ignores what we have done historically.

But, hey, keep fighting with me about how 30 is "technically possible", when it's not. You built a position allocation (including 2 kickers!!!) based on 30, before someone pointed out the flaw in your logic. So your whole discussion on DTs and Safeties was based on an impossible number.

It's no big deal, but you keep digging your heels.

I don't see you providing any analysis to prove that 30 is impossible. Do you have definitive information on the number of initial counters by year? Do you know specifically how the scholarship sanctions impacted initial counters? I think the answer to both of those questions is no.

What's more likely is that neither of us know whether 30 is "technically" possible. It may or may not be. What I do know is that in the last 5 recruiting cycles, we've signed 14 fewer players than would be allowed under the initial counter rules (this ignores any non-qualifiers). At maximum, the scholarship sanctions took 9 initial counters from us (although some believe it didn't impact initial counters at all), which means we've signed 5 fewer players than would be allowed. Given this, I think it's certainly possible that we could get to 30. Clearly, I'm not digging my heels in on anything. I'm certainly open to the idea that I'm wrong. You on the other hand seem to have dug your heels in, but have offered no analysis to support your position. Ironic.

Also, 30 is not unheard of for us. We signed 33 in 2012 and 29 in 2010.

As for the position allocation, that is simply a rule of thumb. Having 3 kickers on scholarships is a general rule of thumb. There are deviations, especially when it comes to kickers. But by all means, pretend like that was intended to be gospel. Also, my position allocation has nothing to do with how many we can actually take in total. It's purely based on a rule of thumb for numbers by position for an 85 man roster. For example, a good rule of thumb for DTs is 8. If we lose Norton and McIntosh to the draft and Fines transfers, we'd be at 2. That's how you get to a need of 6, which can be filled in a variety of ways.

I've never read such heel-digging.

First, as to the NCAA rules, yes, a REDUCTION IN SCHOLARSHIPS is also a reduction in initial counters. Otherwise, you could clear scholarship space by getting rid of deadweight upperclassmen and you would still be able to sign a full class. If the "big numbers" of football scholarships confuse you, then look at how hoops handled the reduction in BOTH scholarships AND initial counters.

Second, you once again show that you do not understand the initial counter rules. Because the rules are based upon the RECEIPT of financial aid. It (technically) doesn't matter how many you sign, it matters how many you ENROLL. As just one practical point on your magical "33 person signing class", we knew full well that David Thompson was going to come in on a BASEBALL scholarship. Thus, while his baseball scholarship would have converted to football if he played as a sophomore, so too would his "initial counter" status have been deferred too. Thus, the signing class does not equal "initial counters" if you are signing kids who you know are going to JuCo or to another sport.

Third, you are ignoring transfers. So your whole "hey, we have undersigned by XX number of players" is incorrect, and does not take into account the transfers we have admitted into UM.

So, again, we lost 9 initial counters over the past few years due to sanctions, you haven't counted any of the transfers, and you think that there is a "possibility" that we get to 30 because of, you know, signing classes before sanctions.

Keep digging those heels.

 

[Canes1968]

Guys keep claiming 30 is a possibility for 2018. It's absolutely not possible unless we could count 5 EEs from 2018 toward the 25 limit from 2017. That will not be a possibility at all.

Ignoring any other factors, which nobody on this board has any information about, it is possible to count 5 EE's for 2018 toward the 2017 class. We signed 19 guys in 2016, which means 6 of our 2017 EE's could potentially count toward the 2016 class (yes, we brought in Colbert and Brown, but we also had EE's in the 2016 class that count toward the 2015 class). That puts out 2017 class at 18, so up to 7 2018 EE's could count toward 2017.

 

[TheOriginalCane]

The 2012 class had 33 with 8 EEs. Referring to the post above and without reading all that jibberish, how does a grad transfer count towards the next year when they wouldn't be there?

and the 2011 class had 21, with 3 EE's counting towards 2010, so 18.

a lot of those 2012 EE's were able to count towards the 2011 class.

& i have the 2012 class at 32, not 33.

33...

Ivery
Blue
Crawford
Lockhard
McCord
Bush
Briscoe
Gunter
Isadora
Terry
Lewis
Jenkins
Dillard
Gadbois
Moore
Dortch
Waters
Witt
Jones
Hamilton
Hoilett
Davis
O'Donnell
Hope
Dewey
Flowers
Kirby
Jean-Louis
Carter
Thompson
Crow
Johnson
Howard

Jean-Louis never enrolled, so he doesnt register as an initial counter

Plus, Thompson NEVER enrolled WITH a football scholarship, and NEVER CONVERTED to a football scholarship, so he never counted as an "initial counter".

 

[DerekDohrman]

Guys keep claiming 30 is a possibility for 2018. It's absolutely not possible unless we could count 5 EEs from 2018 toward the 25 limit from 2017. That will not be a possibility at all.

Ignoring any other factors, which nobody on this board has any information about, it is possible to count 5 EE's for 2018 toward the 2017 class. We signed 19 guys in 2016, which means 6 of our 2017 EE's could potentially count toward the 2016 class (yes, we brought in Colbert and Brown, but we also had EE's in the 2016 class that count toward the 2015 class). That puts out 2017 class at 18, so up to 7 2018 EE's could count toward 2017.

19 in 2016 + colbert, brown. & marquez williams = 22 in 2016.

none of our 2016 EE's counted towards 2015, because 2015 maxed out at 25.

which means all 22 of 2016 counted towards 2016. and that only 3 EE's from the 24 man 2017 classs counted towards 2016. which is why we are currently at 21.

 

[DerekDohrman]

Plus, Thompson NEVER enrolled WITH a football scholarship, and NEVER CONVERTED to a football scholarship, so he never counted as an "initial counter".

Thompson definitely counted as a football scholarship. he was recruited as such, took official visits, signed football LOI, practiced with the team, etc. football takes precedence over all other sports when it comes to counting scholarships.

 

[teddywestside]

Every year we go through this, and every year people undercount how many we can take. It's like clockwork. If Richt wants 28, we're going to get 28. Simple as that. If Richt wants 23, we're going to get 23. Simple as that.

Last year people were saying we only have room for 20- 22 at the max. Then we take 24 with room for at least 4 more in CJ, Edwards, Devonta Smith, and Whoopi McFarland.

 

[TheOriginalCane]

Graduate transfers do not count against scholarship numbers.

this is fake news.

they count both towards the 85 total & the yearly 25 initial counters

It's not fake news, and you are both right and wrong.

What you don't understand is the "mid-year replacement rule". And if you read that rule, you would see that a student who graduates mid-year BOTH can be replaced by an initial counter AND remain enrolled at the University AS A GRADUATE STUDENT.

Where you are (technically) correct is that if we are NOT at the 85 number, then we cannot avail ourselves of the mid-year replacement rule.

And what I am not certain of is whether we can "fake" our way to 85 by handing out scholarships to walk-ons.

Let's put this in layman's terms.

We can replace Brad Kaaya with a grad transfer and have it, effectively, NOT count against our 25, but we have to be at 85 scholarships.

By the way, all the times I have been referring to "getting to 85", I have meant a LEGIT 85. Obviously, we could ALWAYS get to 85 simply by giving scholarships to walk-ons.

no, its fake news and i understand the mid-year replacement rule just fine:

15.5.6.3.5 Midyear Replacement. [FBS/FCS] A counter who graduates at midyear or who graduates during the previous academic year (including summer) may be replaced by an initial counter, who shall be counted against the initial limit either for the year in which the aid is awarded (if the institution’s annual limit has not been reached) or for the following academic year, or by a student-athlete who was an initial counter in a previous academic year and is returning to the institution after time spent on active duty in the armed services or on an official religious mission. In bowl subdivision football, an institution may use the midyear replacement exception only if it previously has provided financial aid during that academic year to the maximum number of overall counters (85 total counters). In championship subdivision football, an institution may use the midyear replacement exception only if it previously has provided financial aid during that academic year that equals the maximum number of overall equivalencies or overall counters.


there it is in all it's glory.

now, as i was saying within the context of this thread, is that if we get a graduate transfer or just your normal, everyday, run of the mill transfer. that player will count as an initial counter, limiting our 2018 class size by 1 & will end up counting against the 85 number.

Again, you are wrong.

Any January 2017 "initial counter" who replaces a mid-year graduate counts backward, assuming you have the space (and we did in the 2016 class, but not by as big a number as people think, due to sanctions). What is confusing you (and others) is that a grad transfer who shows up this summer can't use the rule, but a freshman signee can.

Thus, to the extent that a grad transfer and a freshman EE are fungible, they just switch places.

But, again, there simply are not that many mid-year GRADUATES. Lots of guys may finish in 4 years, but it is hard to get it done in 3.5 (and 4.5 really isn't all that helpful).

The more important aspect that the original poster ignored was probation and sanctions. The loss of those 9 initial counters, alone, blows this whole "theory" nonsense to ****.

 

[DerekDohrman]

i'll make this easy:

first number is total signed for that class, in brackets is the actual number that counted minus EE's counted towards previous class

2010: 26(20)
2011: 21(18)
2012: 32(25)
2013: 21(21)
2014: 29(25)
2015: 25(25)
2016: 22(22)
2017: 24(21)

 

[Canes1968]

Technically, 30 is still a possibility. It's unlikely, but still a possibility.

The primary point in my OP isn't whether we will take 30. It's simply that we can make room for what we need. Numbers aside, it's unlikely we'd ever sign 30 simply because finding 30 Miami caliber players that want in is difficult.

For argument's sake, 30 is possible. Yes, we could make room. However, around 25 is a more likely number.

And I do agree -- if there ever was a class where you'd like to "make room," the '18 class is it.

But you're going to dig your heels in, and claim that 30 is "technically" a possibility (when it is not). First, since your initial posting did not mention the initial counter rules, then "technically" our number could be 85. Second, after all, we could ALWAYS count 5 against the prior year, so "technically" 30 is always a "possibility". But, of course, that ignores what we have done historically.

But, hey, keep fighting with me about how 30 is "technically possible", when it's not. You built a position allocation (including 2 kickers!!!) based on 30, before someone pointed out the flaw in your logic. So your whole discussion on DTs and Safeties was based on an impossible number.

It's no big deal, but you keep digging your heels.

I don't see you providing any analysis to prove that 30 is impossible. Do you have definitive information on the number of initial counters by year? Do you know specifically how the scholarship sanctions impacted initial counters? I think the answer to both of those questions is no.

What's more likely is that neither of us know whether 30 is "technically" possible. It may or may not be. What I do know is that in the last 5 recruiting cycles, we've signed 14 fewer players than would be allowed under the initial counter rules (this ignores any non-qualifiers). At maximum, the scholarship sanctions took 9 initial counters from us (although some believe it didn't impact initial counters at all), which means we've signed 5 fewer players than would be allowed. Given this, I think it's certainly possible that we could get to 30. Clearly, I'm not digging my heels in on anything. I'm certainly open to the idea that I'm wrong. You on the other hand seem to have dug your heels in, but have offered no analysis to support your position. Ironic.

Also, 30 is not unheard of for us. We signed 33 in 2012 and 29 in 2010.

As for the position allocation, that is simply a rule of thumb. Having 3 kickers on scholarships is a general rule of thumb. There are deviations, especially when it comes to kickers. But by all means, pretend like that was intended to be gospel. Also, my position allocation has nothing to do with how many we can actually take in total. It's purely based on a rule of thumb for numbers by position for an 85 man roster. For example, a good rule of thumb for DTs is 8. If we lose Norton and McIntosh to the draft and Fines transfers, we'd be at 2. That's how you get to a need of 6, which can be filled in a variety of ways.

I've never read such heel-digging.

First, as to the NCAA rules, yes, a REDUCTION IN SCHOLARSHIPS is also a reduction in initial counters. Otherwise, you could clear scholarship space by getting rid of deadweight upperclassmen and you would still be able to sign a full class. If the "big numbers" of football scholarships confuse you, then look at how hoops handled the reduction in BOTH scholarships AND initial counters.

Second, you once again show that you do not understand the initial counter rules. Because the rules are based upon the RECEIPT of financial aid. It (technically) doesn't matter how many you sign, it matters how many you ENROLL. As just one practical point on your magical "33 person signing class", we knew full well that David Thompson was going to come in on a BASEBALL scholarship. Thus, while his baseball scholarship would have converted to football if he played as a sophomore, so too would his "initial counter" status have been deferred too. Thus, the signing class does not equal "initial counters" if you are signing kids who you know are going to JuCo or to another sport.

Third, you are ignoring transfers. So your whole "hey, we have undersigned by XX number of players" is incorrect, and does not take into account the transfers we have admitted into UM.

So, again, we lost 9 initial counters over the past few years due to sanctions, you haven't counted any of the transfers, and you think that there is a "possibility" that we get to 30 because of, you know, signing classes before sanctions.

Keep digging those heels.

Wow, you're a smug prick who is clearly incapable of disagreeing with someone without insulting them. Congrats!

Again, please provide your numerical analysis proving me wrong.