Confirmed Water Is Wet and Universities Have Different Admissions Standards For Athletes

[NC_Canes_11]

I'm pretty active with Yale, (sit on one of the boards) and involved with interviewing kids and meeting with prospective families.

I can tell you the process is beyond rough. It's horrifically difficult (for non-athletes) to get in. even with all the support. Acceptance rate at Yale this year will be less than 4% on applications over 50,000 in number

Even for athletes, it's no cakewalk. I met with a kid (good QB, great boarding school, high GPA, 1580 SAT's, fluent in 3 languages, and won a physics competition in the State of Connecticut.) ... rejected last week at early decision. not even deferred, and he was on the list as a football recruit.

It's a jungle out there

I’m not talking about Ivy League. I’m talking about the other 99%

 

[Pentagon Cane]

The article has a puzzling statement re Harvard.

"An Atlanta Journal-Constitution investigation found the 2014 freshman class at Georgia Tech had an average SAT score of 1445. However, for incoming football players, the average SAT was 420 points below the class as a whole. Gaps were also found among athletes at the University of Georgia, Georgia State and Georgia Southern. The annual survey of admitted students by the Harvard Crimson found recruited athletes in the class of 2025 had an average SAT score of 1397, while non-athletes averaged 1501"

First of all, even someone with a 6th grade education like me nose that an SAT score of 1397 is good as ****. Ain't a hill of Granny's baked beans difference between a kid with a 1397 SAT brain and a kid with a 1501 SAT brain. They both smart as ****.

Secondly, who da fug is Harvard recruiting fur there 2025 class. I mean they thinking that far ahead for real?

2025 is the current freshmen class at Harvard or any other university. What did you score on the SAT, again? Kidding.

 

[Pentagon Cane]

I think I know the kid your talking about! He was an all-American kid, active in the Young Republicans, obviously a no go at Yale.

Yeah, it's bull****. Two stories. My kid had a 4.21 GPA on 4.0 scale, 1490 SAT, captain of his football team, captain of his lacrosse team, all-state lacrosse. Applies to USC just for grins. Gets a rejection letter that says don't feel bad the USC the incoming class of 2022 is in the 99th percentile in GPA and SAT/ACC. He was above 99% in both. His buddy went to Thomas Jefferson, best public school in the nation, in Virginia Governor's School, already taking Calc 2 in college, 1580 on SAT, 4.7 GPA on 4.0 scale, captain of his football team, captain of his lacrosse team. Outright rejected to UVA.

 

[kryptonite]

Headline of the article is totally misleading. SAT score difference between athletes and non athletes at Georgia Tech was 425 points. The same difference at Harvard was 104points. Similarly, Harvard athletes had SAT scores nearly 400 points above Georgia Tech athletes.

Bogus conclusion and headline in this article.

I took the point of the article to be that all schools do this, not just the "football" schools. So maybe not as badly, but even the Ivey's cut their standards for athletes.

 

[Cortez55403]

I will pipe in here with this:

Yes, it was more just a couple years ago BUT .... among my teammates at Yale, the average SAT score was within, maybe 40-50 points of the rest of the student body. The average for Yale at the time was around 1510 (different era than today) ... and average for the team during my four years, was about 1460-1470.

What was different was the median dispersion, which was probably a bit greater than the rest of the school. But the average was pretty close.

The average GPA, interestingly enough, ended up being slightly higher than the student body average. And no, we didn't have those UNC/FSU/UF "athlete classes" like "Fundamentals of Staring At Your ****" and that sort of thing. Classes were mostly brutal.

Also, not all athletic teams had the same academic profile. Women's equestrian team and men's basketball and lacrosse ....a bit lower than we were. Men's golf and women's swimming. A bit higher.

Point is, at FSU and UNC, as long as you can read the exit sign on the locker room door, you're in. Big difference than trying to use the accommodation for athletes as evidence that Harvard, Yale, Penn, Dartmouth, etc don't have high standards. Personally, I don't think there should be material accommodation for athletes, and I'm somewhat ambivalent as to wether there should even be athletic scholarships. But that's another story.

p.s. I certainly didn't make it in on my football prowess alone. If I did, then Coach Cozza was a really lousy judge of talent.

great stuff,

I will pipe in here with this:

Yes, it was more just a couple years ago BUT .... among my teammates at Yale, the average SAT score was within, maybe 40-50 points of the rest of the student body. The average for Yale at the time was around 1510 (different era than today) ... and average for the team during my four years, was about 1460-1470.

What was different was the median dispersion, which was probably a bit greater than the rest of the school. But the average was pretty close.

The average GPA, interestingly enough, ended up being slightly higher than the student body average. And no, we didn't have those UNC/FSU/UF "athlete classes" like "Fundamentals of Staring At Your ****" and that sort of thing. Classes were mostly brutal.

Also, not all athletic teams had the same academic profile. Women's equestrian team and men's basketball and lacrosse ....a bit lower than we were. Men's golf and women's swimming. A bit higher.

Point is, at FSU and UNC, as long as you can read the exit sign on the locker room door, you're in. Big difference than trying to use the accommodation for athletes as evidence that Harvard, Yale, Penn, Dartmouth, etc don't have high standards. Personally, I don't think there should be material accommodation for athletes, and I'm somewhat ambivalent as to wether there should even be athletic scholarships. But that's another story.

p.s. I certainly didn't make it in on my football prowess alone. If I did, then Coach Cozza was a really lousy judge of talent.

Great stuff, Red.

Way, way back in the day I played football for a top high school team in California. Cuz I was a good student, I received recruiting letters starting sophomore year from Yale (Carm Cozza), Dartmouth (Bob Blackman) and Navy. My dad wanted me to go to Navy….but it wasn’t for me.

Summer after my junior year, I drove across country to scout those colleges and more, meeting Cozza and Blackman. I knew early on that I wouldn’t continue my playing career in college but enjoyed meeting the coaches nonetheless. Eye opening for me as I had never been east of Reno!

Its terrific that you’re active with Yale. Great, great college.

Let’s go Canes!

 

[colperm]

Headline of the article is totally misleading. SAT score difference between athletes and non athletes at Georgia Tech was 425 points. The same difference at Harvard was 104points. Similarly, Harvard athletes had SAT scores nearly 400 points above Georgia Tech athletes.

Bogus conclusion and headline in this article.

So I know for a fact that Harvard hockey takes kids who they know will likely never play a game for them, solely because they have excellent SAT scores and they raise the academic profile of the team to meet a certain standard. I imagine that they do the same thing in football.

The difference being big time football programs don't do that, they don't have to abide by as high of standards. The players with the worst scores at a Harvard or a Yale (likely their best players) are attempted to be balanced out by a couple of Rhodes Scholar types (think Myron Rolle) who sit in the stands at all of the games. They are essentially academic walk-ons that get partial scholarships, usually one year is covered and they have to rely on financial aid for the rest.

 

[Pentagon Cane]

So I know for a fact that Harvard hockey takes kids who they know will likely never play a game for them, solely because they have excellent SAT scores and they raise the academic profile of the team to meet a certain standard. I imagine that they do the same thing in football.

The difference being big time football programs don't do that, they don't have to abide by as high of standards. The players with the worst scores at a Harvard or a Yale (likely their best players) are attempted to be balanced out by a couple of Rhodes Scholar types (think Myron Rolle) who sit in the stands at all of the games. They are essentially academic walk-ons that get partial scholarships, usually one year is covered and they have to rely on financial aid for the rest.

Yes, I can attest this is true at the Ivy's. True for the service academies. They send off probably 20% to 20% of the athletes to their prep school for a year, so they can be eligible for regular admission the following year. These kids would never sniff an appointment otherwise.

 

[hoops156]

You aren’t allowed to fail kids anymore so how much value do GPA’s truly have in many cases?

you can also inflate GPAs by taking easy courses (since weighted GPAs can vary by district and state). a person taking 15 APs may end up having a lower gpa than someone who did honors and regular classes, but the AP student w good grades may end up being more successful in college.

 

[umhurricano]

This is news? I thought it was common public knowledge that athletes only have to meet minimum qualifications standards, not qualify to be accepted based on academic merit. Schools like ND and GT typically have their own internal threshold that is higher than the NCAA but for football players if they can qualify they are in.

Ivy League is its own story. It helps but they are selecting from a different pool that tends to be academically competitive with the broader student body since they don’t offer true athletic scholarships.

 

[OriginalGatorHater]

For startes I highly doubt very many SEC football players have 1400 SAT scores.

But the premise of the article is definitely true. If you look at the handful of elite High schools in the US. You will know that it is very common for parents to try and get their kids good at "ivy sports" like rowing and the like, because it allows for kids who don't have much of a shot at getting into the Ivies to have a chance of getting into one.

 

[RedSquare]

great stuff,

Great stuff, Red.

Way, way back in the day I played football for a top high school team in California. Cuz I was a good student, I received recruiting letters starting sophomore year from Yale (Carm Cozza), Dartmouth (Bob Blackman) and Navy. My dad wanted me to go to Navy….but it wasn’t for me.

Summer after my junior year, I drove across country to scout those colleges and more, meeting Cozza and Blackman. I knew early on that I wouldn’t continue my playing career in college but enjoyed meeting the coaches nonetheless. Eye opening for me as I had never been east of Reno!

Its terrific that you’re active with Yale. Great, great college.

Let’s go Canes!

my head coach ... and he hired me before graduate school to coach QB's.

great man, and happy yo had the pleasure and honor of meeting him.

 

[RedSquare]

So I know for a fact that Harvard hockey takes kids who they know will likely never play a game for them, solely because they have excellent SAT scores and they raise the academic profile of the team to meet a certain standard. I imagine that they do the same thing in football.

The difference being big time football programs don't do that, they don't have to abide by as high of standards. The players with the worst scores at a Harvard or a Yale (likely their best players) are attempted to be balanced out by a couple of Rhodes Scholar types (think Myron Rolle) who sit in the stands at all of the games. They are essentially academic walk-ons that get partial scholarships, usually one year is covered and they have to rely on financial aid for the rest.

for the ivies, (speaking of Yale), it's "Yes, BUT ..."

the coaches get a certain number of "tips" (admissions pulls) each year. they can't waste them on kids who won't contribute to the success of the team.

the kids you are talking about are more akin to "preferred walk ons." they do get identified as kids the coach wants, but the leverage that has with admissions is much diminished. it certainly helps, but those kids don't get in unless they are truly excellent candidates otherwise