Virginia Tech at Miami January 28th 2020 at 8 pm on the ACCN (Pregame predictions, Game thread and post game reactions)

[Awsi Dooger]

Hard to think that this lack of support is totally lost on potential recruits. Then again, maybe our staff doesn't actually take them, on their visits, to a home game.

I was thinking that last night during the alma mater after the game. The team stands and faces a student section that was totally empty all game. I was looking and DJ and wondering if he wishes he went somewhere else? And why would a top recruit volunteer into an atmosphere like that?

There needs to be some emphasis on student attendance and participation. Stan Morrison made that a priority when I was a USC student during the early '80s. We had some mediocre teams but excellent student attendance and atmosphere. Morrison knew it was a challenge to get students to walk or drive slightly off campus to the Sports Arena so he organized one group after another, like mini American Outlaw type of thing, referring to American soccer fans. There were competitions between fraternities and sororities, etc.

The key aspect was that he placed the student section courtside in prime seats. That encouraged students to attend. Row after fanatic row. We had the best seats not relegated seats. I was literally sitting in the front row just yards from the players and Song Girls. We could scream all game. It felt like we were making a difference. Our tickets through the student activity booklet enabled that prime seating. We would get there as soon as the doors opened for the preceding women's game and dash to claim our seats in the front row, then be there for 4+ hours through the women's game and men's game.

I don't see the Canes doing a **** thing to encourage attendance. Well, the halftime shows are far superior this year. Instead of tic tac toe or musical chairs they have high caliber acrobatic stuff. Very impressive and much appreciated but I don't think it puts one extra butt in the seats.

 

[Pentagon Cane]

I was thinking that last night during the alma mater after the game. The team stands and faces a student section that was totally empty all game. I was looking and DJ and wondering if he wishes he went somewhere else? And why would a top recruit volunteer into an atmosphere like that?

There needs to be some emphasis on student attendance and participation. Stan Morrison made that a priority when I was a USC student during the early '80s. We had some mediocre teams but excellent student attendance and atmosphere. Morrison knew it was a challenge to get students to walk or drive slightly off campus to the Sports Arena so he organized one group after another, like mini American Outlaw type of thing, referring to American soccer fans. There were competitions between fraternities and sororities, etc.

The key aspect was that he placed the student section courtside in prime seats. That encouraged students to attend. Row after fanatic row. We had the best seats not relegated seats. I was literally sitting in the front row just yards from the players and Song Girls. We could scream all game. It felt like we were making a difference. Our tickets through the student activity booklet enabled that prime seating. We would get there as soon as the doors opened for the preceding women's game and dash to claim our seats in the front row, then be there for 4+ hours through the women's game and men's game.

I don't see the Canes doing a **** thing to encourage attendance. Well, the halftime shows are far superior this year. Instead of tic tac toe or musical chairs they have high caliber acrobatic stuff. Very impressive and much appreciated but I don't think it puts one extra butt in the seats.

Interesting because my son could not get FSU tickets because it waited too long. So he stayed home and watched the Caps come back against the Islanders and streamed the Miami game.

 

[Allabouttheu95]

in order to fix these attendance issues this program needs a spark of energy put into it. That would happen with a new coach.

 

[AmherstCane]

in order to fix these attendance issues this program needs a spark of energy put into it. That would happen with a new coach.

Why don’t you take your L and go home?

Winning (plus a half competent AD) would fix the attendance issues.

The winning part will happen next year with 10–11 ACC quality players available (including Rodney, who will be a serviceable rotation big next year notwithstanding the idiots on this board). It’s really quite amazing what L and his staff have done with Sam and Rodney.

Candidly, I’m not sure when the half competent AD part will happen.

 

[Allabouttheu95]

View attachment 110294

Why don’t you take your L and go home?

Winning (plus a half competent AD) would fix the attendance issues.

The winning part will happen next year with 10–11 ACC quality players available (including Rodney, who will be a serviceable rotation big next year notwithstanding the idiots on this board). It’s really quite amazing what L and his staff have done with Sam and Rodney.

Candidly, I’m not sure when the half competent AD part will happen.

LMAO season has 10 games left, let's see how they finish. If they get to 14 I will eat crow.

In regards to attendance issues, I agree winning will help. But everyone is taking note of the fact that L is extremely Low energy now. Barely even coaches out there any more.

 

[AmherstCane]

LMAO season has 10 games left, let's see how they finish. If they get to 14 I will eat crow.

In regards to attendance issues, I agree winning will help. But everyone is taking note of the fact that L is extremely Low energy now. Barely even coaches out there any more.

Your “high side” record prediction was 11-18.

We are 11-9 TODAY, having played the toughest stretch of the schedule with multiple injuries.

Take your L and stop spitting venom at something you supposedly support.

 

[Gables Canes]

Interesting because my son could not get FSU tickets because it waited too long. So he stayed home and watched the Caps come back against the Islanders and streamed the Miami game.

That makes no sense. I was at the FSU game and the student section was 80% empty.

 

[Da_Lucky_One]

11-9 with 10 games left including only one ranked team(FSU).

If Coach L continues to play all 8 or 9 guys each game then it is possible Miami could win 9 of those last ten games. There are a lot of average teams left on the schedule.

In fairness, the wins will not be pretty and could cause stress but a win is a win.

 

[Da_Lucky_One]

Interesting battle brewing at the stretch 4 position:

In 33 minutes, Sam scored 9 points and grabbed 6 rebounds.

In 13 minutes, Anthony scored 7 points and grabbed 4 rebounds.

I would like to see what happens if Anthony got more minutes and Sam played few minutes how it impacts their numbers.

 

[Gables Canes]

Interesting battle brewing at the stretch 4 position:

In 33 minutes, Sam scored 9 points and grabbed 6 rebounds.

In 13 minutes, Anthony scored 7 points and grabbed 4 rebounds.

I would like to see what happens if Anthony got more minutes and Sam played few minutes how it impacts their numbers.

I wouldn't mind that split being more like 25 mins for Sam, 20 mins for Walker, especially because Sam is playing hurt and Walker has really started to emerge. Sam is a better shooter (although he's just 3/19 from 3 in ACC play), but Walker is far more athletic and has a higher ceiling.

 

[AmherstCane]

Interesting battle brewing at the stretch 4 position:

In 33 minutes, Sam scored 9 points and grabbed 6 rebounds.

In 13 minutes, Anthony scored 7 points and grabbed 4 rebounds.

I would like to see what happens if Anthony got more minutes and Sam played few minutes how it impacts their numbers.

It surprises me that you don’t understand this, but one of the reasons that Coach L develops players so well is that playing time is earned.

Just giving freshman playing time - without making them earn it by a thousand things that you can’t see or understand unless you’re inside the program - turns DeQuan Jones into the useless high jumper that he was under Haith.

Reflect back on just how phenomenal L and his staff have been (and continue to be) at developing players, and understand that it takes MUCH more than game experience to make that happen.

 

[hotshot]

I was thinking that last night during the alma mater after the game. The team stands and faces a student section that was totally empty all game. I was looking and DJ and wondering if he wishes he went somewhere else? And why would a top recruit volunteer into an atmosphere like that?

There needs to be some emphasis on student attendance and participation. Stan Morrison made that a priority when I was a USC student during the early '80s. We had some mediocre teams but excellent student attendance and atmosphere. Morrison knew it was a challenge to get students to walk or drive slightly off campus to the Sports Arena so he organized one group after another, like mini American Outlaw type of thing, referring to American soccer fans. There were competitions between fraternities and sororities, etc.

The key aspect was that he placed the student section courtside in prime seats. That encouraged students to attend. Row after fanatic row. We had the best seats not relegated seats. I was literally sitting in the front row just yards from the players and Song Girls. We could scream all game. It felt like we were making a difference. Our tickets through the student activity booklet enabled that prime seating. We would get there as soon as the doors opened for the preceding women's game and dash to claim our seats in the front row, then be there for 4+ hours through the women's game and men's game.

I don't see the Canes doing a **** thing to encourage attendance. Well, the halftime shows are far superior this year. Instead of tic tac toe or musical chairs they have high caliber acrobatic stuff. Very impressive and much appreciated but I don't think it puts one extra butt in the seats.

Best example might be Vernon Carey, Jr ---comparing an empty Watsco student section on a\one of his many vists, to the Dook students camping out in the freezing cold just for the chance to maybe get into Cameron the next night.

 

[Bruce Hale]

It surprises me that you don’t understand this, but one of the reasons that Coach L develops players so well is that playing time is earned.

Nothing should surprise you with this guy.

No, silly!

Just play the Freshmen even if they aren't worthy and/or haven't earned the time. I mean Isaiah Wong has mostly looked like a disaster but he should definitely be guaranteed playing time every game!

I love his assertion that we'll have a chance to win a lot of games down the stretch if Coach L plays everybody on the roster.

Of course this is a complete non sequitur.

 

[AmherstCane]

Nothing should surprise you with this guy.

No, silly!

Just play the Freshmen even if they aren't worthy and/or haven't earned the time. I mean Isaiah Wong has mostly looked like a disaster but he should definitely be guaranteed playing time every game!

I love his assertion that we'll have a chance to win a lot of games down the stretch if Coach L plays everybody on the roster.

Of course this is a complete non sequitur.

Cause we all want to revert to Frank Haith style player development.

 

[CTCANE]

Nothing should surprise you with this guy.

No, silly!

Just play the Freshmen even if they aren't worthy and/or haven't earned the time. I mean Isaiah Wong has mostly looked like a disaster but he should definitely be guaranteed playing time every game!

I love his assertion that we'll have a chance to win a lot of games down the stretch if Coach L plays everybody on the roster.

Of course this is a complete non sequitur.

Interesting because my son could not get FSU tickets because it waited too long. So he stayed home and watched the Caps come back against the Islanders and streamed the Miami game.

The student section wasnt even close to being filled.

 

[tcgrad1014]

This attendence issue is a dead horse. When the team is really good students will show up. When the team isn't good, students won't show up. End of story.

 

[Da_Lucky_One]

It surprises me that you don’t understand this, but one of the reasons that Coach L develops players so well is that playing time is earned.

Just giving freshman playing time - without making them earn it by a thousand things that you can’t see or understand unless you’re inside the program - turns DeQuan Jones into the useless high jumper that he was under Haith.

Reflect back on just how phenomenal L and his staff have been (and continue to be) at developing players, and understand that it takes MUCH more than game experience to make that happen.

It is hard to "earn" playing time in practice when you don't have enough guys to scrimmage 5 on 5. Drills, skill work and light walk throughs are fair but nothing informs a coaching staff of a players skills, abilities and performance better than the ability to evaluate every player during a 5 on 5 scrimmage. I know, injuries are the easy response but poor use of the scholarships. If you have 13 scholarship players, even with Lykes, Gak, and Stone out, that would leave you with 10 scholarship guys and 2 walk-ons to help the freshman "earn" more playing time. Go ahead, add in McGusty, that still would leave you with 11 guys.

So, with no chance to "earn" playing time in practice, how does a player "earn" playing time in the game when Coach L has a policy of one turnover and you sit the bench for the rest of the game. That would be like telling you when you make a mistake on your job, you don't get your paycheck.

Do you really think it is more important to only play 6 guys while you teach a kid how to "earn" playing time?

How do you think playing time is "earned" if you are not given an opportunity to play then evaluated on your performance followed by ways to improve that performance then the re-evaluation will tell the player and coaches what areas need to be worked on and if any progress has been made.

This whole "earned" playing time notion is an outdated way of coaching. Development comes with trial and error. There have been 5 to 10 minutes every game for all three of the freshman to play this season.

The biggest issue with the roster always goes back to Brooks sitting out and those two scholarships that were not filled with a grad transfer. It is hilarious to think that Coach L is selling people that he could not find two players to fill those two roster spots when there were over 100 grad transfers available.

 

[Da_Lucky_One]

I wouldn't mind that split being more like 25 mins for Sam, 20 mins for Walker, especially because Sam is playing hurt and Walker has really started to emerge. Sam is a better shooter (although he's just 3/19 from 3 in ACC play), but Walker is far more athletic and has a higher ceiling.

That is my point. Sam is playing way too many minutes with his tendinitis and he is not being very productive. That 25 Sam/20 Anthony split may be good against Pitt.

At this point, you want to see if Anthony can be more productive with more minutes as I kinda feel Sam will only give you 10 and 5 due to his knee at this point in the season.

 

[Consigliere]

You may not want to read my post and that is fine. To sum it up quickly:

1. Rodney has tremendously improved this year. Without any question. I said it already here (https://www.canesinsight.com/threads/thoughts-so-far.156734/#post-4454706).

2. Not all production is the same. When we're down by a ton of points and the game is essentially over, any production may be considered "useless".

3. I think "defensive liability" is a tremendous understatement.

Ok, your bashing of Rodney is a bit out of hand. Yes, we know he's extremely limited athletically. Yes, we know he's not the strongest. Yes, we know he's a defensive liability.

Defensive liability, that is a tremendous understatement. There are games where he allows 20+ points on defense. He is so bad.

BUT: he had 11 points and 9 rebounds last night vs. a halfway decent opponent. He's actually been much more effective in ACC play than in the OoC slate. In league games, he's averaging 8 points, 7 boards and shooting 59%. Is he a force? Not even close! But it's time to tip our caps and acknowledge that he has developed into a decent low post threat, which is more than I think any of us could've ever imagined. He was critical in our win last night.

This whole thing goes back to production and when it occurs. We all know not all production is the same.

1. Against VT: Rodney had a tremendous first half. Tremendous. There is no question he had a tremendous first half. All of that production was material and contributed greatly to the win. The issue is he had 11 points in the first half and provided almost no scoring in the second half. So when Rodney offers little and is a defensive liability, you can imagine that it is frustrating watching Coach stick with him. Especially when Rodney doesn't play better as the minutes go up. He gets more tired.

2. ACC Production: We're 3-7. Rodney is averaging 8 and 7. In our 3 wins, Rodney is averaging 6 and 6. All of this production, in some way, is contributing to the wins. This production matters.

Over the last 5 games, we're 1-4. Rodney is averaging 11 and 8 in 28 MPG. On paper that looks good. But we know that if you look at the actual games, much of this is "useless" production when the game is over.

We already discussed VT. Look at Duke and UNC. Look at his scoring:

Against Duke, they were up 20 points with 5:09 left in the first half. The game was over. We weren't coming back. Once Duke was up 20, they continued to extend the lead and the game became more out of reach.

During the first 15 minutes of the game, Rodney scored 6 points.

During the final 25 minutes of the game, Rodney scored 7 points.

Against UNC, at no point was this game close. With 4:02 left in the first half, UNC was up 20. The game was over. We weren't coming back.

During the first 16 minutes of the game, Rodney scored 2 points.

During the final 24 minutes of the game, Rodney scored 11 points.

Finally, look at FSU. Rodney's worst game over the last 5 games. It was a very close game and we should have won. When it mattered and we needed production, he scores 4 total points.

3. As for relevant production, look at Wong. Wong, over our last 5 games, is averaging 8 points (almost double his production for the season). We know that the majority came over the last two games (29 points out of 39 points). Wong drops 19 points against UNC. We lose by 30. It is nice to see this production but it isn't the same as scoring 8 points in a game that is close or we win.

4. Some other fun Rodney stuff:

- We're 3-1 when Rodney scores 2 points (or less).
- Rodney combined to score 2 points and 4 rebounds against two of our best wins (Clemson and Illinois).
- Rodney is averaging 6.3 and 5.7 during our 11 wins this season. That is less than his average production for the season.

 

[Da_Lucky_One]

You may not want to read my post and that is fine. To sum it up quickly:

1. Rodney has tremendously improved this year. Without any question. I said it already here (https://www.canesinsight.com/threads/thoughts-so-far.156734/#post-4454706).

2. Not all production is the same. When we're down by a ton of points and the game is essentially over, any production may be considered "useless".

3. I think "defensive liability" is a tremendous understatement.



Defensive liability, that is a tremendous understatement. There are games where he allows 20+ points on defense. He is so bad.



This whole thing goes back to production and when it occurs. We all know not all production is the same.

1. Against VT: Rodney had a tremendous first half. Tremendous. There is no question he had a tremendous first half. All of that production was material and contributed greatly to the win. The issue is he had 11 points in the first half and provided almost no scoring in the second half. So when Rodney offers little and is a defensive liability, you can imagine that it is frustrating watching Coach stick with him. Especially when Rodney doesn't play better as the minutes go up. He gets more tired.

2. ACC Production: We're 3-7. Rodney is averaging 8 and 7. In our 3 wins, Rodney is averaging 6 and 6. All of this production, in some way, is contributing to the wins. This production matters.

Over the last 5 games, we're 1-4. Rodney is averaging 11 and 8 in 28 MPG. On paper that looks good. But we know that if you look at the actual games, much of this is "useless" production when the game is over.

We already discussed VT. Look at Duke and UNC. Look at his scoring:

Against Duke, they were up 20 points with 5:09 left in the first half. The game was over. We weren't coming back. Once Duke was up 20, they continued to extend the lead and the game became more out of reach.

During the first 15 minutes of the game, Rodney scored 6 points.

During the final 25 minutes of the game, Rodney scored 7 points.

Against UNC, at no point was this game close. With 4:02 left in the first half, UNC was up 20. The game was over. We weren't coming back.

During the first 16 minutes of the game, Rodney scored 2 points.

During the final 24 minutes of the game, Rodney scored 11 points.

Finally, look at FSU. Rodney's worst game over the last 5 games. It was a very close game and we should have won. When it mattered and we needed production, he scores 4 total points.

3. As for relevant production, look at Wong. Wong, over our last 5 games, is averaging 8 points (almost double his production for the season). We know that the majority came over the last two games (29 points out of 39 points). Wong drops 19 points against UNC. We lose by 30. It is nice to see this production but it isn't the same as scoring 8 points in a game that is close or we win.

4. Some other fun Rodney stuff:

- We're 3-1 when Rodney scores 2 points (or less).
- Rodney combined to score 2 points and 4 rebounds against two of our best wins (Clemson and Illinois).
- Rodney is averaging 6.3 and 5.7 during our 11 wins this season. That is less than his average production for the season.

Dude, no one breaks down the stats and information like you. You are amazing. Thank you.